Dot Matrix

Rottie: Yes, it is SOOO cute! Firebee - you did a quick double click - then a minute to load? I dunno! Oh well, you would have liked it! Welcome back! Dot Matrix

http://www.flowgo.com/flowgo2_view.cfm?page_id=10564 Dot Matrix

Great Topic Good answers I believe it cannot be confronted within the confines of TWI (as Oak pointed out) Out in the world working I see deception as well. I worked in a hospital that was doing a questionable service "electric shock treatment" Many states abandoned it years ago. But we have it. Each time the hospital does it they get $5,000.00 from medi-care. So, they do it often and PUSH it on people that have no business getting it. One day they brought in an older lady who had been beaten and raped. She was in the wound center because her beatings left her black and blue. One of OUR promoters was there and pushed her to come into the pysc ward for depression. While there, they wanted to SHOCK her. The HEAD nurse and myself KNEW this was wrong. If the older lady was not depressed something would be wrong with her(having been through this crime). And being depressed about being beaten and raped does not mean she suffered from clinical depression. There were many situations like this. The HEAD nurse and I did confront them about all the saftey issues which included this therapy. (A woman died being shocked, because they did not test her heart first.) We were let go, then we fought back through OSHA. There was no way to "reason" with the powers-that-be because they were sold out to the system. Once OUTSIDE the system, we were able to reach reasonable people and we WERE heard and ACTION was taken. I feel the same way about TWI. Dot Matrix

I don't think GS is trying to save PFAL or push it on anyone. Here is part of the statement for GS Dot Matrix

Amen Hope I agree, I think some of these people are trolls or still TWI -- or in some nutty off shoot. I think they know each other or are the same person and are invading GS to attack the healing that has been going on by sharing what we know of TWI. (Putting the pieces of the puzzle together.) PFAL is their plasma. This used to be a place to just kinda poke fun at TWI and share what we experienced. Now it is a place where each time you want to speak someone is shoving PFAL down your throat. People disagree. That is okay, it is this constant push of PFAL and love for Weirwille which is a gross out. I love God! Plenty of folks love God who never even heard of VP or PFAL. I do not think these people understand that. Hope - I love you. Let's ignore them. Dot Matrix

Ralph God Bless! Happy Birthday - I miss you You are one of the greatest and most treasured people I have met in my life -- your guts to be honest set me free. Thanks so much for all your effort to bring the truth to people (about the TWI lies, etc.) You are a special and loved individual. Happy Birthday If you want send me a private topic and I will tell ya who I am -- and be more specific about my thanks to your courage and honesty! Dot Matrix

Muhamud Ali (He knocked Joe Frazier out without touching him he was soooo seed.) Dot Matrix

It may have been me but some of the singers seemed out of tune to me. Like that young guitarist (that won) who played right before James Taylor. what was his name? Insync did a great job, but it did choke me up about the Bee Gee's. Simon and Garfunkle did take me back...IMO, Simon never sounded as good alone. Sprinsteen was great!!! Bruce is still the man. The Boss! He has to be a bout 53. Who was the black chick in Dead Prez's? She was a presenter and messed it up! She even read outloud "applause." What an idiot! Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 24, 2003 at 15:09.]

Bruce and the E street band on the grammies! Awsome! Bruce still has it! Dot Matrix

Adios Happy Birthday! I miss you and was going to write a private topic when this thread popped up! So, Happy Birthday and I miss you! Dot Matrix

I still speak in tongues and sing in tongues! I was doing it before TWI, I went to a pentecostal group for awhile. Dot Matrix

Mandi I did not know he took PFAL. He really helped me! I could not begin to sort any of this out and his kindness was something I had never experienced. He offered to find me a church in my area. He said he would call the ministers for me until he found one who could deal with a broken hearted person (who did not trust anyone, because of what happened at the hands of a religious group). Dot Matrix

Rottie He is a Luthern minister. A few years back when I was trying to find out the truth about what I had been through a few x-wayfers told me he seemed to know his stuff. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/Homex.html His church I did contact him. He said he had no idea why people started to contact him but people that left TWi were going to him for help. He sat and listened to crying women about the advances or rapes or abortions they had at the hand of TWI. ANd men who had lost years of productivity in a ministry that used them. He was understanding and a great listener. Soon he began to research things as he was hearing them Over and OVER! He became instrumental in bringing out the truth to a lot of people. Not everyone had a computer, but he began to compile the information so he would have it to share with people that called him or showed up to make sense of what they had been through. Contact him about his Doctorate. I asked him all that stuff a few years back. I know there are VPW sympathizers, and knew some folks just cannot hear anything heavy. But I figured most folks would be glad to hear stuff they had been wondering about-- that may shed some light for people who could not get the whys and the wherefores but knew something just wasn't right... You can think whatever you want to think. I think he has concrete information that helped to blow away the fog. He exposes a lot of lies that we readily ate at the hands of TWI. You do not have to consider what he says, anyone can research all this stuff themselves. Rottie, do you really believe VPW had a doctorate? I believe he had a piece of paper, like my corps papers -- meant/means nothing. Here, become a Reverend: http://www.ulc.net/ With CHwester running from pillar to post trying to make people feel like non-victims who were responsible for their own victimization, I thought he needed to hear some of the things we have been talking about for years. I love you Rottie, but I had a few months of exchanges with Juedes and he was perhaps the most kind individual I ever met representing Christ. I believe him, I know VPW was always protective about his education. He said "Well, I did not go to the right seminary! Now the public is picking that apart." I blew it off as he was the MAN. After all he got the special promise from God! I do not believe anything he said, at this point. So, I was interested on where he studied. I am in the south and you can get the "calling" and not be affiliated with any school and start preaching. There are a lot of "strange" preachers. I belive VPW may have been a livingroom preacher who tried to hide his lack of education. He took another preachers work and said it was his. Then, presented himself to the world. If a person wants to preach, that is fine! But to lie about your education, your writings, your adultery etc. It just adds to the "Ye shall know them by their fruits" or in this case lack there of. John is not the final word just another voice among the many! If people feel the need to bash the victim and throw fogiveness and their "responsibility in their victimization" in their face, then they need to know about the perpatrador! Seems some people (not you) have more sympathy for VPW then they do VPW's victims -- IMO they just need more info about VPW... After they receive that information, and they still want to tell victims they share responsibility then that is a posture they do not share with me. Dot Matrix

You still call him Dr. that was also not true either. From JJudes site: While Wayers proudly call VP Wierwille "Doctor," the biographies in his books seldom mention the source of his degree (though the wording leads some readers to believe that he received it from Princeton). Perhaps TWI is embarrassed because Wierwille received his Th. D. in 1948 from Pike's Peak Bible Seminary in Manitou Springs, Colorado (in the Colorado Springs area). In its checkered 60 year history, it has never been accredited or recognized by any reputable agency. It had no resident instruction and no published list of faculty. Wierwille once defended Pike's Peak Seminary by claiming that its president at the time he attended was Dr. H. Ellis Lininger who "had been the head of the Department of Education for the state of Colorado" (The Way-- Living in Love, p. 189). However, the Colorado Department of Education informed us that Lininger never did head this department as Wierwille claimed. (Wierwille also claimed that "I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute, too, through their correspondence courses" (TWLIL, p.175). However, although Moody records the names of all the students who completed courses since 1901, Wierwille's name never appears, indicating that if he took any courses, he never completed a single one.) It is apparent that Wierwille greatly exaggerated his educational achievements in an effort to appear more knowledgeable and credible as a Bible teacher. (Go to the site)The photo shows the entire "seminary," not just some kind of back house. The street address of Pike's Peak Seminary is 41 Lincoln. This picture is taken from Lincoln street. The other side of the house is perched on the side of a semi-wooded hill, and has no street access. We all got involved because we believed the lies. Dot Matrix

That is a sad song, sung by most of us! Dot Matrix

Mandi I love your song! Dot Matrix

WOW Songrts- You were hip to it before most of us! Yes Bullinger was in the 1800's. (Again after the first century - before Weirwille) Those Research guys had to know all this stuff. When I think of VP yelling, "Walter, what ya got?" Asking for his research and all of us jotting it down in our margins, as if Walter just found it this morning! When it was all "lifted" from other men's work. So, the class "worked" because VP had little to do with it! Then, the research they were involved in, was all tainted. Things like abortion being okay because of the first breath teaching.... And that whole Christian Family and Sex class -- ya know that was the first time I really thought what the phook are you talking about? Then, in an Advanced class for Christian study we had porn movies of dogs doing women! That was my first porn movie I ever saw and the MOG was showing it! I can still hear VPW, "The dog has more sense then the women!" All VPW's stuff was tainted with sex and self gratification. Wild huh? Dot Matrix

Thanks to God and BG Leonard we heard some good stuff! Dot Matrix

Great Posts 88 I got involved because I was looking for God at the same time a guy was witnessing at work about a class. He and I had known each other from the age of 15! I noticed a marked difference in him. He carried a pocket Bible and when we spoke he would chapter and verse almost everything. I was impressed. I liked Leonard's PFAL class and the twigs. Later the weirdness of TWI filtered down and strangled us. My flaw was not walking away when I noticed the weirdness. I think I have learned how to trust my gut feelings now. The confusion was that PFAL was GREAT and TWI was so NOT great. I did not realize we were in two different ministries at the same time. We were the happy product of BG Leonard's class while in the counterfiet ministry of Weirwille. We were tricked, that is why they are called deceiving spirits. We were deceived into ignoring our own gut feelings. It was a pretty good devil trick -- have the genuine cool God stuff surrounded by the evil cult stuff! What a snare! I feel in! I now pay more attention to my gut feelings -- but the confusion was my guts loved PFAL but did not like TWI -- that took 30 years to figure out why. It was a very effective trick! Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 19, 2003 at 18:03.]

Those 18 year old girls were given alcohol when the drinking age was 21. So, now it is criminal. Some of those 18 year olds were given drugs -- drug dealers are criminals. So even if they were 18 and Ma and Pop did a great job, they went to hear about Jesus and were given DRUGS AND ALCOHOL by old men which included ministers of God. Besides the ethical issues... which can be argued at 18 they should have known better, they were GIVEN BOOZE and drugs. Read Marsha's story and about 4 occasional posters here know all about this stuff, via friends or personal invitations to the parties. http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm I hope when they revisit GS, in the upcoming weeks, they post to tell you what they saw. Dot Matrix

Rottie Born Free I forgot, I cried on that thing and Bambi -- that should not be for children! Field of Dreams? The most sad? I cried for joy! October Sky? Was that the one where the kid wanted to go up into space and his teacher endouraged him, then died? Yes that was very sad! And a true story. Cuckcoo, yes the ending messed me up for days. Dot Matrix

Charlotte's Web (book and movie) Dot Matrix

We were all victims, but if we let the women recruiters for VPW's victims off the hook of responsibility, then we need to let every guy out there off the hook for their sexual problems including Craig, IMHO. There is a difference in being a victim and victimizing. I can forgive a victim who victimizes if they ask for forgiveness. But if they think, oh well, I did what I was told to do, that isn't my fault! I beg to differ. I know cute little girls that were recruited by two of VPW's pimps. Oddly enough, both women recruiters ARE ordained by VPW! Yet those cute little girls that fell prey did not go out and recruit. Once a victim joins in being a sexual predator by their own involvement or recruitment, I see partial responsibility. After all, LCM was once just a jock that wanted to take a class called PFAL. The MOG VPW personally groomed him into the predator he is today. So, if we let the recruiting Ordained off the hook of responsibility, then let's apply the same to Craig. Dot Matrix

I wonder if they ever think about how many women they victimized... I know I shared some dumb a$$ bad scripture stuff to people because it was shared with me --and I feel terrible about the people I passed it along to -- I pray that God gets the REAL truth to them so they do not practice some of the stupid things I shared. But if I hunted down young girls to turn them over to a molester... I would try to find those girls and beg forgiveness! I saw it once on The Practice. A guy was molested by a priest he was about 11 years old. He had a best friend around the same age. The first kid KNEW the priest was a molester and directed his friend to go hang out with the Priest. So, the innocent friend did hang out with the priest and was also molested. Years later, the innocent kid (now a man) sued his friend because he knowingly and willingly directed him to a molester. Very interesting. Dot Matrix [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 18, 2003 at 15:52.]

That is the point! Good for you! The molesting has to stop somewhere. This abuse excuse lets it go on and on. Passing the buck to the molester that molested the boy who grew into the priest who molested "your son." (so we go back to 200 B.C. for the very first time it happened and let everyone else off the hook? I do not think so.) I don't care if you were abused if you abuse my kid I hold you responsible. Now, once that person is in custody, we can get that person some help as well. I have friends who had alcoholocs as parents and they SWORE it would not happen to them -- Now here they are either married to one or one themselves. Who is responsible? Who is driving to the store, buying it and drinking it? That person is held accountable for passing it on. They need to make a decision to stop it NOW and never drink. Because it is something that is a family weakness and the person has to rise up and say the buck stops here. If you were a victim I am sorry. If you victimize it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Dot Matrix