Dot Matrix

What amazes me is there are people at GS that condemn people for bring the truth about TWI into the light. They say if we speak of it we are: bitter, hateful, unforgiving, evil, unable to love, speaking ill of the dead... And that we should not speak of these things... We should not expose them. Well, we are to role model ourselves after GOD. God had a book written which records in detail all kinds of SINS and BAD things that MOG did in the past. He put it in a book for all of us to read and discuss "forever". So I guess God is bitter for having it written, for allowing us to talk about it and to expose the darkness with the onset of the light. God loved DAVID. He did not have to include this special little apple of his eye in the Bible. But he did. He exposed all the good and all the evil which included consequences. I think we are ordained by God to discuss someone who claims to have been/or be a Man of God. I think it is GODLY to evaluate his ministry. I think to DO so is following GOD's example. I believe the benefits are: A. MOG take note and beware. If you screw God's people you will be exposed B. Lambs that have been tricked by a wolf, it is okay to regroup, discuss the attacks, to heal together, to expose HOW you were attacked, to point at the attacker. C. It is also available to forgive. But to walk in forgiveness does not mean that you never discuss or learn from the events again. Or you do not point them out to help others from being tricked. (If it were true that once we forgive we are to never discuss things again -- then following our GOD's example -- there would be no Bible.) SOME people here are too rigid in how they view "love" "forgiveness" "bitterness" and "hate" They think to discuss an event or to warn others means automatically that the individual "hates". I do not see it that way. OR the Bible would hold no lessons. Paul would not be recorded as Saul, David and Bathseba would be missing…. To forgive does not preclude one from learning from past mistakes or talking about them. There is a difference between gossip and truth. And to discuss one's ministry exposing EVIL does not mean the induividual talking about it is EVIL. "You said VPW is evil so therefore you are." "You are discussing some things that are uncomfortable for me to hear -- therefore YOU are bitter." If we were not suppose to expose darkness - Jesus would have had a lean ministry. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 13:53.]

JT "I only knew of one person who had to submit to home inspections." Home inspections? Oh my God! That must of happened after I left or in a different area. Can you believe that? How communist is that? The TWI "police" come in and inspect your house?

They probably do.

BTW Pls come by more often. You can write your story and just post it now and then for new people. (You write so well)

Catcup i agree. What I notice is, I think more people who saw the abuses first hand posted on Waydale. And, of course, some who have posted our first hand stories over and over are tired of the same idiots objecting to anything we share and calling us liars or a friend of Satan (I think that is what I was called.) or I am already in hell (because I did not worship PFAL as God breathed.) It wears ya down. I am seeing more and more people here who seem to want to believe in "the fantasy". They are not here to find out what happened but to share how much they loved TWIG when the Doctor was alive. Then, when you mention the good Doc wasn't so great -- it all starts all over again. Over and over and over.

Or here is one VPW "Do you swallow?" I properly avert my eyes from his naked old body... and I leave. I go back to him after studying the BIBLE and confront him about adultery with the BIBLE. VPW "What so ever things are pure.... blaa blaa think on those things." Like I was wrong because I did not have PURE thoughts about ADULTERY. I really do not think some folks get it yet. White dove, I think you know it went sour, but somehow you seem to suggest the abuse was manageble had "we said the magic right things" or something. As you suggest in your scripts. This is the truth: This inner circle sinned and believed that they lived above the word of God. It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them, they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5). This is how I see and saw it. But of course that is through my eyes and my experiences. I wish you well and if your experiences fall outside of mine, then you can only know in "your area" telling the truth worked. Praise God it worked somewhere! Because it did not where I was. ;)-->

Catcup- I hear you my sister on the VPW lying. Do you recall that "keep it in your pants" speech? Then, he was running around looking for girls to get -- LIAR!! So - I know- you know! White Dove, sure do love you but…. Geeezzz… Gosh, I wish we could all be as clever as you... Why didn't we think of in genius ways to stop things like a question with a question? I guess we were all just rubes and lack sophisticated thinking skills.?.?. --> I don’t mean to be hard on you but GEEEZZZZ, -->anything you can think of, one or more of us tried it. No offense, but your post reminds me of the movie SILKWOOD. Karen Silkwood is going up against the nuclear plant. She thinks that when two people have a fight the wrong person will let the right person win. Her boyfriend says something like, “You think you can just go nose to nose with them and win because you are telling the truth? Life doesn’t work like that.” And life doesn’t work like your little plays. Unless, of course, Ozzie and Harriet are your twig leaders. I wish it could have been that easy. I say “this” and they can say “that” and the problem is solved. You are obviously a nice guy. But some of us were in very tough situations. Here you go: San Diego Corps meeting: PP tells all of us that we have to give AT LEAST 15 % ( I think he even said the corps was expected to give more that 15% was for the regular believers) and that Corps sponsorship does not count, etc. So, I brought my little Christians should be Prosperous book with me. I stood up at the corps meeting with my Bible and the little book, and said "Chapter and Verse?" It was a very gutsy thing to do. A hush came over the meeting and PP told me he didn't have to give me a chapter and verse and he did not care what Christians Should be Prosperous said. That was MY LAST corps meeting. So, unlike your scripted version of what would happen in Mayberry, the reality was people stood up and they were mocked, ridiculed, called bad corps, publicly announced the were "possessed" etc. I stood against an ordained monster of a leader and had an area meeting where the whole danm area was told I was possessed. Vickles was not interested in finding more about VPW in a sexual way after being approached by a "recruiter" and she was thrown out of the corps and then called possessed. (as she mentioned on another thread.) And here is an example of a TRUE story: Corps Leader and WOW were WOW together and then remained roommates for two more years. This story is on the third year of being roommates. I will refer to her as a WOW but this is actually two years after she did her WOW commitment. Leader to WOW: "I don’t think you should go out with Mark." WOW "I like him and he has been going to twig for over a year and I am going with him." Leader: "I think you have a defiant spirit." WOW "Chapter and verse?" Leader: "I am you leader, I get revelation for your life." WOW "God, would tell me first." Wow walks away and goes into the bathroom to get away from it all. Leader follows her into the bathroom and blocks the doorway. Leader then says, "I think we need to sing a hymn; devil spirits hate God's music let's sing." WOW "I do not want to sing." Leader starts to sing WOW tried to leave bathroom WOW "Let me out of here." Leader "No, you are having devil problems." Wow was stuck in bathroom for over 30 minutes (may have been an hour I forget now)crying and trying to leave. WOW escapes. Leader yells, "If you do not listen to me, you will marry him and have retarded children." WOW runs down the street and flags down a passing motorist. Motorist drives WOW to where I work. WOW is sobbing and tells me all sorts of things. She begs me to help her escape the WAY home. Every time she had tried to leave this woman had done these things to her. WOW is a very good and decent person. She manifested the fruits of the spirit. I believe her. I hide the woman out. Wow then tells us how she used to wear make-up and cute little clothes. How the corps leader pushed her into the bathroom and washed the make-up off her face. Called her a whore when she wore cute things and kept her like a scary husband frightens a wife into staying. When WOW went to “above leadership”, that “above leader” called in the "corps leader" (WOW's roommate) who convinced these (5-sense knowledge men) that the WOW had devils. The leadership then turns on WOW telling her she must listen to “leader” for her own spiritual well being.... She begged me to believe her and I did. There was always something creepy about her “leader” roommate. I call a corps sister of mine (the wife of an area leader) and we stash WOW. Wife does not tell her husband as we know husband has a blank allegiance to his superiors and is severely uncool. My corps sister and I prayed and we knew we could tell nobody what was happening. Next day, we go to apartment and remove WOW's clothes. We secretly take her to the airport and send her home to her family. She did not have devils. She just disagreed with corps leadership. WOW marries Mark and they have four HEALTHY children. Unfortunately, yours are fairy tales and mine are true stories. I wish the opposite were true. I bet you were nice to the people in your twig so this maybe hard to digest. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 13:27.]

Yeah Tom, I wish that was me. This was popular back in the 70's with Jane Fonda's movie Klute! I was so glad to see ot was coming back! Tom, I went to the site clicked left and saw where it said "properties" I then copied the address al the thing from http through .gif and it did not pull over. You try it. I can do it from Google images but not from a ite with a pic. How come Tommy?

Suz You are in Seattle? I have not been but it is gorgeous in all the pictures. I tried to convince the hubs to move there but he said it was gloomy. I like it a bit over cast and that to me is cool. I really loved what I have read and seen of it.

Now this is back in style, I hate to post a picture as none of them are turning up so here is the site. I just had my hair done like this and I am happy with it. http://www.imdb.com/gallery/hh/0004751/kga...nard,%20Crystal [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 16, 2004 at 1:15.]

Frank You were a good little "corps" guy weren't ya? (I think you were in my corps!?!) If not, you would have been great corps -- doing what they asked !!! As Tom said, we were saps!

"So rascal your saying you think many complied out of fear? ok I believe that is true but it spits in the teaching of pfal does it not? (it was fear in the heart of that mother etc.) It turned into people pleasing and a cult environment for some then I believe that is true. " --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Isn't that what we have all been saying for years? That their actions and what they taught from PFAL were different? Thus the hypocrisy? VPW taught in front of a large group of WOWs "to keep it in your pants" As he tore his off at the sweet young thing he offered a drink to in the coach? We were taught about "abundant sharing" from that little book they handed out in PFAL. Then, they taught us that "corps sponsorship" and the like did not count as the tithe? And Abundant sharing was at least 15% and did not include classes, travel expenses to classes and/or sponsorship? These are all the reasons some of us recognize TWI as a cult.... But you are not new here, heck you have been involved in these talks and sometimes provided sound logic as to why what they did was awful, not Christ-like, etc. I guess I am surprised by your response to this thread. Were you asked to provide some intimate details and the person who asked you was loving? Then, I would understand how you could perceive this invasion of privacy as "loving." However, even under those circumstances, you would be the exception not the rule. MJ, we are not talking about how a mother questions her kids or how a wife wants some details on "where have you been?" We are talking about people who wanted to stick their noses where they did not belong as an assertion of power. I am in a church now and there is nothing even close to that as a standard practice -- or even as an occasional practice. It just does not happen outside of TWI and some other controlling groups.

"I am saying I think those who did comply thought it came from someone who cared about them and had their best interests in mind. If not why would anyone comply? " --- --- --- --- ---- --- ---- ---- ---- I complied to shut the mother f'er up so he would get off my back and not make an example out of my disobeidence in front of the corps. So, I wrote in all the 15 minute things and turned it in, because when I didn't; I was screamed at in front of the other corps in the area. It was not about love -- it was about flying under the radar. Getting him off my back while I figured out "if" and "how" I would leave... And I did shortly after.

MJ We do not see eye to eye on this. Were people that stupid going into the corps? We were that excited to try and please God and love his people. It was a cult. By its very nature it lures you in with a lie then manifests the lie later on. I, personally went in excited, became dissappointed, stupid in some areas perhaps, then I left. Yes, people gave intimate details of their lives to "leaders" you can think it was because they asked from a loving heart if you choose to -- [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 16:25.]

White Dove you said And It reads to me like YOU are speaking for YOURSELF in that YOU were in a Quandry and unable to understand why others would feel or say, "I knew it was wrong but I had to do it" I was just trying to anwser your question. No hard feelings. It just read like you could not understand "how" some people were giving this "information" to their leaders. I was sharing with you "how" the pressure applies and "why" some people did give the leaders the information they asked for. Again, if you did not, you either had nicer leaders, were stronger than some of us -- and that is a good thing that you did not follow the "cult" hook line and sinker. Some of us did. Therefore, some people did turn over reports on how much they tithed, had sex, what they did every 15 minutes.... I wish I had not been as broken down as I was, and I am sure many others look back and laugh/cry at how they could hand over such personal information. You are lucky you came through all this with some balls left. Many did not. Proud that you did not bow. That was a stand well taken and to be admired. I am merely explaining how some people felt like they were standing to "turn the information over" or how they were too broken down to fight, etc. Praise God you left the ministry "in tact". No point of contention, just trying to answer your post.

Tom - okay I will change it to Stalin! :)-->

To my understanding those types of detailed schedules were not about LOVE but about more control. When you work in the corporate world and you are not meeting expectations they put you on an "action" plan. This is to have you do certain things to "improve". The corporate "action plan" is another way of warning the person they were going to loose their job. It was not "loving". Yet, it was more loving than the schedules TWI handed out. One schedule I had to fill out in the corps (on the field under a Stalin) was like a 15-minute diary. It was something like a sheet with every 15 minutes accounted for. I did not do it and became like the kid with cooties. I was confronted at a meeting. If I recall then, I just made things up and wrote them in the sheet and handed it in. Like I can write down on a sheet every 15 minutes at work on a sheet to give to a ministry? Give me a break. I suppose there are some people out there, maybe a limited few, that actually want their lives that planned for them. BUT this was not something I ever asked for, nor any of my friends. Let us remember this is America, we should not have to give that kind of detailed explaination to anyone -- especially if you are not getting a paycheck. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 15:28.]

Perhaps you, White Dove, were blessed not to have some of the leaders some of us found ourselves under. It is easy to say, “Gee, I don’t know why anyone would offer up such information…” if your Twig leader was Connie Stevens and your branch leader was Dick Van Dyke. But some of us found ourselves under people akin to Stalin. Some of us put up with it because we still believed we could “wait it out” and a change would happen. If you think “well then I would have left.” Then, you were not as committed to the insanity as some of were. That speaks highly of you and speaks loudly about how some of us were stupid, innocent, pressured, hopeful of a change or any other real reason’s we had for believing, staying or succumbing to the insanity. Consider yourself lucky. The only thing I can share to show you how this “thinking” or power effects people is to bring up a movie I saw last night on Brenda Geck (true story). She was a horrid person who took in foster kids. She taught them to shop lift, set fires (for insurance money), rape other people in the household etc. One woman, who helped her set the fires (in building’s Geck owned), wanted out. She told Brenda Geck she would not go on setting fires and things. The next morning, when the woman walked onto her porch, there was a hanging noose to greet her. The message was clear. Now, I do not think anyone here actually had a noose on their porch but I do know of threats being made such as “if you do not comply, your children will be retarded, someone in your family will die as you have walked outside the protection of God, or YOU would die as you left God’s ministry." IT was not an actual noose but just as powerful. http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1702906 Kirstie Alley and Will Patton star in this movie based on a true story about a woman, regarded by her neighbors as a devoted mother and pillar of her community, who is accused of heinous crimes, including being the mastermind of a crime family for more than 20 years. Rating: TVPG-LV In her upscale neighborhood of nice homes and manicured lawns, Brenda Geck (Alley) is considered a model citizen. She is a devoted mother and wife who opens her home to foster children, runs a successful real estate business, regularly attends church with her family and generously volunteers her time to local organizations. Even the mayor and local police applaud Geck for her good deeds and acts of kindness. The last thing her neighbors would think is that their local society matron is, in fact, hiding many secrets in her house. It is not until one woman, Marie Devereaux (Deanna Milligan), comes forward with the truth -- that behind Geck's public persona is an evil sociopath -- that Geck's reign of terror finally comes to an end. The Geck family took in Marie and her mother when Marie was just an infant. But finally, after years of physical and emotional abuse at the hands of Brenda and her family, Marie finds the courage to escape and turns to assistant attorney general Philip Rothman (Patton). She confides her incredible story of what really went on in the Geck household, including robbery, rape, arson, insurance fraud and kidnapping. Now, Rothman begins the investigation of his career -- seeking to prove the allegations against Brenda Geck and her children, who did their mother's bidding under threats of violence if they refused, and show that anyone can fool everyone if they project the right image. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 15, 2004 at 15:24.]

Zshot and Wacky are you both single? Just kidding... but I pictured both of you in T shirts being comfortable and happy!

I did not like the corporate clone look either -- but if you want to get hired... When I drove a Subaru and was up for a promotion, I was told that my car was not nice enough to run errands for the company- pick up VIP's at the airport, etc. Is that not crazy? So, I got a Datsun 280 ZX. The next promotion I got! Crazy huh? Mind you I did not have THAT important of a job that my car should matter that much! (OR they should have provided a company car if it was inportant to the position)

Yes and he liked them athletic. You have a point.

WW-Sunesis Your posts make me wonder if D hooked up with R in a threesome with the great forehead. Very interesting. Sunesis, you are right anything goes as long as nobody could prove it. What a crazy environment!

When I was in California I had this BRIGHT Lime green weekend outfit. It was very comfortable. I wore it to travel to New York in -- I swear, I thought I was going to be killed wearing it! The whole city was in dark colors or light bland ones. At that time the LOUD beach shirts were in and my hubs wore them all the time. I sent some to my nephews and they explained if they wore them they would be beaten up! The East and West coast sure were different. In the late 80's WHITE heels were "in" all seasons and people wore them proudly in December but on the East coast it was still unacceptable!

Lots of women like small purses but this is my favorite size:

And this: