Dot Matrix

Sure, got any ice cream?

That minister and I talked about that today as well. He is familar with TWI. I told him because I was afraid I caused it to happen as fear was negative believing... He sure told me that was a lie. Then, I said I think I am still afraid. He then said, "Your problem is you think you cannot go to the Lord AFRAID because FEAR is negative believing. When you are negative believing you are out of fellowhip. So, you remain in your cycle of fear and condemnation. You feel you have to straighten up before you can go to God." Then, he gave me these scriptures: Psalm 34:4 I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears. He said, "they did not get rid of their fear first and then seek the Lord. the whole believing equals receiving thing ties into that. If you were afraid -- you were out of fellowship. If you were out of fellowship -- you had to repent of your sin. But you thought your sin was fear/negative believing. So, you could not go to God until you were in fellowship. That whole believing thing can keep you away fron God. The WAY focused on portions of the Bible without exploring the whole. In the psalm, clearly he was in fear (which we call negative believing) but God heard him and delivered him. God is not dependant on our "state" to hear us.... Psalm 34:4 I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fears. Or Psalms 56:3 When ever I am afraid I will trust in you. So it is possible to TRUST in the LORD and be in fear. TWI taught you had to be in fellowhip (not fearing/negative) before you could trust. That is the opposite of this verse!

Sorry double post.

Paul Klass is in California, I will send your request to Kreebs to sent to him.

Steve: PNW?

Ummmmm We do not know what happened. Maybe Pawster was trying to work things out and Rockster went off on him. We don't know. Pawster has taken a lot of crap from a lot of people and he did not ban them. So I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But I still would like to swap Mike for the Rockster.

"Speaking of which,one of the people I most admire here,aside from you wonderful 9th corpse,and lurkers and drive-bys here is that Mike guy...Here's a guy who strolls into an anti-way message board preaching way doctrine,and he's got about half the greasespot posters twisted into knots,...all thinking they're going to say the magical words to convert the guy,I guess...Or perhaps they're doubting their faith,or lack of it...Maybe it's just mental exercise...Seems like whenever I tune in to one of his threads(about once a month,or so)it's like watching a rerun on tv...Of course,we need to keep his threads where they are because they do generate a lot of hits,and in the grand scheme of things,isn't that all that really matters? I'm not angry at Pawtucket or any of the other moderators" Can we trade in Mike and keep Rocky? I mean Mike sucks, just reading his posts give me a headache, he is insulting and metally ill. Can we swap them? Paw? We will gladly give you Mike in exchange for Rocky. I did not always agree with Rocky but he was not insane preaching the Bible is in tatters and PFAL was God breathed to replace the Bible. NOTHING Rocky ever said comes close to ....ing me off like that statement.

"My forgiveness DOES have boundaries and I freely and unashamedly admit it." P.S. I did not see Samson being forgiving and blaming himself with all those he slay with the jawbone of an foot.... I did not see David say, "Yoo big boy, you hurt us and killed some of my people. I do not blame you, I do not hate you because it was our fault. We should not have been born..." No, he zapped him in the head with a rock and God's blessing. I did not see any forgiveness manifested when Annias and Saphira were struck down for lying about the amount of money they gave. The apostles just carried their dead a$$es out the door.

Ya know I think perpetrators and their lawyers have made the word "victim” into something dirty. Like to be a victim and heal at your own pace is dirty, socially unacceptable and wrong. When did this happen? My sister said to me the other day -- you were a victim. Why should acknowledgement of that victimization be "dirty" or bring you shame? Now, when one uses "I was a victim" to go and commit crimes then it does become the abuse excuse. But to recognize YOU WERE a victim and it was a situation you could not control can bring deliverance. Don't let the perpetrators, their lawyers or some x-cultist make you feel badly about being a victim. I was on the phone today with a minister of a different church. We were talking about "victim" as well. It is not a bad thing to admit you were a victim. And even when you heal you will have always been a victim in that situation. To realize you were a victim gets rid of the self blame and guilt that keeps you a victim, it is not neccessarily holding anger that keeps one a victim -- it is the guilt and blame of accepting responsibility for something you were NOT responsible for.... For instance, I felt like “if only” I did not go into the woods my life would have been different. I suffer with the affects of the attack because IF I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING ATTACKED THEN I DESERVE ALL OF THE CONSEQUENCES. (consequences: fear, claustrophobia, difficulty at the dentist, difficulty breathing, panic, trust issues and the list goes on. If I am NOT a victim then I am resposible and if I am responsible then I brought it on myself, and if I brought it on myself, then I do not deserve to be set free, and if I do not deserve to be set free then I deserve to be in bondage, because I deserve the consequences of the attack because I should not have gone in the woods.... But placing blame where it needs to BE stops the guilt, blame and depression cycle.) When I let go of the responsibility and ACCEPT that I was a victim, then I do not feel as though I have to accept all the ramifications of the attack that plagued me for years. To accept that I was a victim then sets me free. THEN, I can tell the thoughts of defeat "get out of here. I was not to blame. I refuse to live with that responsibility. The perpetrator is guilty and the Perpetrator is to blame. I here and now refuse to accept the guilt and the blame anymore. I accept God’s love and healing because I deserve it – Jesus died to give me these things and I accept them!” That is the declaration of victory. An illustration of that was in "Good Will Hunting" Will had thought all his abuse that happened to him was his fault. It was not any HATRED. It was the burden of the guilt. IT was not until Will faced off with the Doctor (Robin Williams) and the Doctor kept saying "It was not your fault" "IT was not your fault" When it dawned on Will Hunting that is was not his fault then he was delivered. It was not about the hatred. The bondage is about ACCEPTING responsibility that is NOT yours to accept. So, to let these folks, who think victim is a dirty word, or that it is a sin to be a victim, wake up because they ARE WRONG. These people make it hard on a victim and KEEP them in BONDAGE with a guilt trip. They DO NOT HELP. To me, they bear an out and out lie and deception of the devil to keep God's people in bondage. You do not have to let go of the anger -- let go of the guilt. You did nothing wrong. It happened to you. Not because of you. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 17, 2004 at 20:38.]

Way back Thank you for your post. I am sorry you too were affected by this "crime". It does change who you are and what you will become. Someone once said at an abuse center when they brought in a raped child -- Well, her future has just been altered, she has a 70% change of becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol, she will become promiscuous or overly prudish, her relationships will be disastrous as trust issues abound... This is just the first day of the disaster. Isn't that sad?

CW That report that TWI had on you-- well that makes me think the "birth to the corps" papers we had to write were just to give then something "on" us. I used to think VPW only had them written to look for weak girls to force into sex, this makes the reason broader. ESPECIALLY, if WE wrote the incriminating stuff ourselves.. Like: As a teen there was excessive drinking, then took PFAL. Boy, they had their bases covered. The evil just runs deeper and deeper. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 17, 2004 at 12:03.]

Jon i was in a battle with a woman and it was fully a spiritual battle. It was the first time I saw "devil revelation" as I KNEW God would not tell her things she was discovering "in her head" about people and using it to hurt them. We are on the same page.

Jon I did not see it as a put down but as an explaination that made sense. As I said it was good insight. The weird thing was "corps leader" was a little too fond of WOW. She would have WOW lay on her lap and stroke her hair and stuff like that. Sometimes she would hold her hand more than something like 5 year olds -- more seductive. WOW showed me her old make-up and clothes and she was a bit like Cindy Lauper upon meeting "Corps leader". Where corps leader never wore make-up, never wore girl clothes, etc. By the second year together WOW was dressing just like "Corps leader". It was so weird. "Corps leader" also MADE WOW work with her -- so they could be together. I NEVER knew the details of how WOW hated every minute and in an effort to stay in TWI she made these consessions. (I do not want to hear from the dang gay community that I am saying the girl was possessed because she was a lesbian. I think she was possessed and a lesbian --Okay?) Later on, I found that "corps leader" had been a lesbian and then the whole "capture seduction thing made sense" She was in LOVE with WOW

Krys I put toliet paper on the roller incorrectly....

Happy Birthday Kathy

Jon WOW that was some cool insight!

WD Oh, I stand by my posts as a reponse to what I saw as a condesending post from you. I am just sorry you did not like it. Oh, never mind. I am walking away.

ww- good to see you my dear! Your post reminds me of Mike. I believe his conscience is seared and he no longer has the abilty to process information. He has lived in la-la land so long, slinging his message of PFAL will save the world that he cannot recognize anything else. I think Mj may be holding on by a "thread" herself and the only way she is able to live is to remind herself of forgiveness, sometimes I think she is speaking in an effort to save herself. We can become salesmen of what worked in "our" lives and discontinue HEARING the other person. I do not see her as trying to be discourteous but being discourteous none-the-less becasue she tries to sell her brand of recovery as the "only" way to recovery. She is not a bad person (and you did NOT suggest she was), she is just trying to live. I sell what works for me -- as a suggestion not as a "must." Her message is annoying but it is all she has, she is offering the only thing that has worked for her. She just needs to know when to back off. Sometimes "Backing off" is LOVE. That is IMO of course. I agree with you:

((((PAW)))) You sure take a licking and keep on ticking. I never thought you read them. Your air of decency would not allow you to do something like that. But thanks for easing the questions.

To Mo and Cool Waters: I would like to bring you a different message. A message of being a conqueror. My friend Janice was attacked by a group of roving gypsy men who had taken up residence in the woods near her childhood home. I was molested in the woods across the street from my home by 5 boys. I was six years old and she believes she was around the same age. We are both now about a half century old. She is the greatest most loving believer I have ever known. She was never in TWI. Around the age of 39 for me and 42 for her we both started to “break down” as behaviors manifested themselves. Such as when I got upset I could not breath. When I had to have stitches in my hand I almost had to dial 911 to live through the emotional trauma. And when her daughter was raped by a “French “ guy and then took off to the French embassy for help –Janice almost stopped functioning. Why? It was not about forgiveness or hate. It was about the terrorizing fear we each endured at an in appropriate age to have to deal with such fright. (not that it is ever acceptable). We had lost our POWER. We had been held against our will and had been forced to receive a man before our mother’s had even told us about sex. I am a praying woman. I did go into TWI 1 because I loved God and people. Janice wrapped herself in her church and education and has her Doctorate. But both of us kept collapsing in our personal lives. We memorized scripture, we spent time before the Lord begging to be released from our bondage. Each doing this independent of one another and only learning later we went through similar roads to recovery. (Neither of us are fully recovered. But we press on) The most wonderful biggest release work we have both been doing is with a Christian counselor. This counselor prays before each session. She allows you to talk and not pressure you or pass judgment like the “heal now” messages you may encounter here. So you know what has worked? She made Janice go back in time with her eyes shut and relive the terror. Only this time she would change the events and become the victor. She would walk through the events and as the first man grabbed her she would yell out loud at him then call for Arnold Swratzanagger to help her. (this image worked for her) Then Arnold would graphically rip out their eyes and cut off their limbs and physically remove their ability to hurt her. She had to work with the emotion of anger. To be angry and not suppress her feelings. Each time she does this she gives the child power and recreates the injury to her “soul”. (The recreation gives her an image of power to sink down into the abyss of of doubt and fear the attack HAD created in her) Well, I had stitches in my hand as the result of a problem. I was actually terrified of the stitches. Why? The boys who attacked me held me down and by placing their knees on my hands, and the second held down my shoulders. Someone had their hands over my mouth and nose and I was dying. I have problems with feeling like I am suffocating at the dentist and have had to stop and get out of the chair and walk to the window. I always need to feel that I can escape. I have to have some control. (I still cannot do elevaters) Well, these stitches were not going away and worse they placed my hand in a cast. I sat on our deck in shambles trying to reconcile that the cast did not prevent me from breathing. The connection from my hands to my inability to breathe are monstrous. I called a poster here who had to talk me through breathing. Then I called Jancie and she walked me through the “fight back” therapy that has been successful with her. I relived the memory… I did not stifle it, deny it or let someone GUILT me into a quasi forgiveness fa?e. I fought back for the first time. I had Arnie and Jesus show up to help me. Jesus prayed for me and pried them off and stuff then Arnie went in and did some graphic fighting much like Samson with the jawbone of an foot. THIS work. This going back and yelling at them with indignation has been what is enabling me to walk back out into the world. So, you take that anger. Go someplace alone and you let it rip. You relive the moments and you picture victory. Then, find a therapist, if you desire, who believes in letting you FEEL what you FEEL and who will meet you where you are. IMO I wish you health. I understand your pain as I have lived it. [This message was edited by Dot Matrix on March 17, 2004 at 9:08.]

Cool Waters and Mo Thank you for having the guts to lay the truth out here for all to read. I am sorry anything happened to all the children, the families and communities. May God rock you in his arms and dry your tears. He will listen to all of it as long as you need to cry and talk about it. He loves you.

MJ I hear your message of love. We all do. I believe, however, it is an over emphasised point of view perhaps. Like: you have the ability to love everyone who ever caused you harm and who is causing you harm and who will cause you harmin the future. If you are truly there it is a place to be admired, however, if you loved Cool Waters you would stop applying PRESSURE to her - to be in a "place" she is not capable of being right now or maybe ever. That WOULD BE LOVE to her. To simply say that you "were not there", it was "her children" and it was "beyond horrid" and that you "understand her pain and will pray" for her -- would IMO be LOVING her. But instead you push a message, that is not realistic to many, to love everyone yet the very nature of ARGUING with an individual in PAIN is NOT loving. Can't you love her -- where she is -- without trying to force your mandated version of healing down her throat? Can't you love her? IT seems your need to "be right" and pass along this "love at all costs" message is actually more important to you then the people that have to listen to it. Why? Either you truly believe it or you like to be the messamger of "rise above it all" which is actually an effort to make you "look good" and to NOT take the time to HEAR this woman and to love her where she is. If you truly want to love someone then let's see this great "place" that you live --in action. Love her and it maybe as simple as stop trying to PUSH her into a place she does not want to be. I mean, your LOVE message almost seems like you love the people "in TWI" before, you love the people "in now", you love "everyone" because we each (you incl.) made a decison to be there so it is not their fault but the fault of each person. So, you love the evil doer. Great. Because in this case by not HEARING her and only hearing yourself you are becoming that evil doer. Let's see some of that love here MJ. Let's really see it -- or you are like a tinkling bell... Or as brideshead said "Her words are like bubbles... They entertain for a little while then they burst and there is nothing." (We posted at the same time. This was to your previous posts)

Here is the old shag from Klute! Remember this?

Good points!!!!!

WD Sorry you did not like my post, I did not like yours either. Doesn't mean I do not like you.