Spoudazo

The gospel of Judas was not found until the 1970's. I also doubt Wierwille had any interest in researching more than he had to in order to support his theology. He did rely on his own take on the Pauline epistles fairly exclusively. That is a gnostic trait. He really didn't have to embrace the gnostic gospels to embrace some gnosticism. He made it up as he went along or with revelation from "father" and qualifying distinctions of what applied to us and what was for our learning.

This is an excellent point GT and I appreciate you pointing this out. I should have been more specific and said the resurrection of Jesus Christ is unique to Christianity. Jesus being a historical person. For every point there is a counterpoint and with this topic it is no different. There is a good book by Nicholas Perrin, Lost in Translation, which deals with a few of these questions. There are many others who have written, with both sides making strong arguments for their position. Unlike my wife, I am not argumentative when it comes to Christianity, The Way or much else. It is up to the individual who has questions to look at what the opposing points are and make up their own mind. Further, Christians should not just close their eyes and pretend questions do not exist. I think taking serious time and diligence was actually my point. Maybe this topic will spark more questions and possible interest. These issues are important and distinctions between the myth of Horas and the life of jesus for example, make for interesting conversation. I wish I had more time for these forums. People formerly of The Way, not likeminded, talking through issues, and even disagreeing. That is something worthwhile.

Hi, I was in The Way from 1974-1989. 14th Corps until I saw what it did to people. There is no Way blood left in me. I am a trinitarian far removed from all Way doctrine. I am a cessationist when it comes to SIT. I thought I drew a distinction between the 3 questions posed in the blurb I responded to, but maybe not clearly enough. I agree it is good to question the research methods of The Way and Wierwille. I said nothing about the nine manifestations or SIT because these are unique to what we learned in The Way. The resurrection is not. It is unique to Christianity. It is what draws the distinction between Christianity and other faiths. Without it you have a nice collection of wisdom literature. Which may be a point some are trying to make. I have not doubt someone could read all the books mentioned on the list and those refuting them. My question was in no way meant to be intimidating. It was meant to show that these are deep issues not to be taken lightly and convinced of quickly. For every point made in the discussion on the inerrant nature of scripture or the resurrection of Christ there is a counterpoint made. I would sincerely hope that people take the time to educate themselves, and not be swayed easily. There is a difference between questioning your entire faith and having questions about The Way. If someone is doing both I just hope they don't do it based on anything less than good scholarship and a well rounded argument.

I normally steer clear of these discussions, careful to not discourage any questions that were suppressed in the first place. Nobody wants to hear that they were wrong and told years of their lives were wasted in smoke and mirrors. That is clear in your doctrinal forums. I read there and will post on occasion. What is it about an article written by another ex-cult member who obviously leans heavily on someone else's insight, Karen Armstrong, that has you questioning the very basis of your faith? The resurrection of Jesus. That is not a judgment it is a question. What are Penwork's qualifications in this area? Is He/she a bible scholar? How are you so easily swayed? Maybe you never believed it or understood it in the first place? Fine. If that is the case, wouldn't you go to the experts, like William Lane Craig who has for years studied the evidence for the resurrection and is a qualified and credentialed scholar? No, we have been taught to distrust them. In six weeks it could be someone else here and their opinion and will that make you question this? Wierwille trained us well. He trained us to follow people and their "new light." I am surprised that in 72 hours you can question the basis of your faith on the basis of a few people's opinons. Every author I read on that list is refuted by another scholar. Are you going to read them all? There is always Oprah, Eckhart Tolle, or Doctor Oz. Long after this crop of pop culture critics is gone the bible will still be here and Jesus will still have been raised from the dead.

It has taken me some time to get back here. Yes, I did suggest rethinking Way theology. I thought most people here are doing that. I did not suggest anything to you I have not done myself. I am not sure who your father is or how I suggested he was eweeww bad. If you mean God, I explained that God is sovereign and holy. That is not a secret. From a biblical perspective grace is not what works for me or what works for you, and I am not sure I follow your logic. I think I will leave that to the more enlightened.

We wonder why evangelicals get such a bad name? Could it be because they call things like food stamps for a mother with kids grave evil. It doesn't make God look so nice either. I wonder if Jesus made sure everyone had a job when he fed the 5000.

Just to keep things straight this is not my interpretation, there is not a commentary I can find that does not use the same comparison. To clarify my post for you Watered Garden, and Cynic as well, let me try to set the stage. John chapter 10 takes place during the Feasts of Booths(Chapter 7:1 - 10:21). By this time, three attempts had been made on Jesus' life. Starting in chapter 5 these chapters are detailing the opposition to Jesus' claim of being the Son of God. Again, He is at a feast, the blind man was just healed ----the cast of characters present were the Pharisees, the Jews, and also His disciples. By the way, this is not a parable, John does not record the parables. This is a long uninterrupted speech of Jesus' which contains the figures of speech simile and comparison. We can agree that Jesus claims to be the "Good Shepherd" the questions we have is who is the theif, also called Robbers, Hirelings, and Strangers etc. etc. Jesus is addressing someone in the crowd. The scene is almost like a debate, remember in John 9 the Pharisees condemned Jesus for healing the blind man and on the sabbath as well. He then turned around and called them the truly blind. They are following Him around trying to kill Him, and dissuade His followers, constant challenges to His claims as the Son of God. Jesus begins the descriptions of who the theif is: * he does not enter by the door, but climb up some other way. * The true sheep will flee from him * When he sees the wolf coming he leaves the sheep and flees. This discourse is setting the stage for how Jesus is going to build His true church. He is now specifically dealing with those in the fold acting as false shepherds. He explains in detail the greatest threat to the sheep. The threat He is trying to protect them from is those within the fold who would use the sheep (Fleece them) and flee when the wolf(Devil) comes. These are those who steal hearts and affections from Jesus, who kill spiritually, destroy with damnable heresy. Much like VP Wierwille. He has got this cast of characters together-who is He speaking to? The Pharisees. These were the men who were entrusted to feed the flock. This was what they were suppose to be doing, yet they were trying to kill the Messiah and enslave the people to religion. The Pharisees had a conceit of knowledge and could not bear it to be questioned. These were who He was speaking to and about. The false teachers of the day. The Pharisees were using people for gain, while Jesus was explaining to them that He was going to die for the sheep. He claimed that there is only one door for the sheep and one Shepherd, and it wasn't them. He is talking about the total care the shepherd must have for the sheep against the backdrop of the Pharisees ruthless treatment of a blind man. They were also present with the woman caught in adultery, they didn't like the way the woman at the well spoke of Jesus, Nicodemus had to come by night, and so on. The OT is full of Good Shepherd, false Shepherd analogies. We lived it, so it should be much clearer for us. Matthew Henry's commentary can explain it far better than I can. Look at the cross references in your bible, that will be helpful. I tend to ramble. The understanding comes within the context. Even a cursory reading will shed some light on it. Consider it in light of your time in The Way. As for the toothbrush falling, I am not sure how to answer that. Psalm 139 might be helpful: 2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. 4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD. 5You hem me in— behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain. 7Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. 11If I say, Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me, 12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. 13For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. 17How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum ofthem! 18 Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you. 19If only you would slay the wicked, O God! Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! 20 They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD, and abhor those who rise up against you? 22 I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies. 23Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting

Why do you hold this belief? I am trying to follow your logic. You don't believe in a sovereign God? Amos 3:6 "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?" Not to be brash, but, you must seriously consider rethinking all Way theology. According to Way doctrine, God is sitting in heaven with Jesus at his right hand, both twiddling their thumbs, waiting for the gathering together. If we truly believe in the God of the bible, we must believe in a sovereign Lord. He is omnipotent, which means that nothing in the universe or your life can happen without God allowing it to happen. This means the sparrows falling to the ground, the hairs on your head growing or falling out, or earthquakes, famines, or 9/11. We can question why God allows anything to happen, but it is folly to have such a low opinion of God and a high opinion of our knowledge. Here is something to think about, God allowed the most traumatic event in human history to occur unimpeded. The crucifixion of His beloved Son. Yet, He used this for man's greatest gain, our salvation. You don't believe God foreordained this, that He used people to accomplish it? God does not give His power to anyone else. He would not then be an all powerful God. To equate a Christian life to some kind of cosmic chess game where God has to counter each move of Satan's pawns with a counter move, gives too much credit to Satan. God never lost control, He is in charge now, and has been since before creation. Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. God not only ordained David's life, He has ordained everything. The infinite mind of God compared to the limited mind of man. Ironically, the verse you used to give the devil way more credit than he is due is speaking specifically about false shepherds. I hope the irony is not lost on you. It is a direct correllation to Ezekiel 34. Funny how Wierwille opens the class with this because he is a prime example of a false shepherd, teaching you how your needs will be met(If you follow his teaching), while he is fleecing you. Ezekiel 34: 7 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.11 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. In John chapter 10 Jesus declares HIMSELF to be the good true shepherd in contrast to the false self-appointed shepherds. The steal, kill, and destroy is talking about leading people away with false teaching. Much like we learned in the Way about God not being in charge and ascribing power to the devil he just doesn't have. VPW, took the temptation of Jesus in Matthew 4, and used that to say that as the god of this world the devil ultimately controlled everything. Which is in direct opposition to the first verse in Matthew 4, " What does it say here? 1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." He was led by the Spirit. God led Him there to be tested." That steal, kill, and destroy doesn't mean Satan has the power to do whatever he wills, he is still in subjection to God. As is everything in creation. God ALLOWS things to happen, BUT, He uses them for HIS good. What does Joseph say in Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." As far as the according to the power which works in us? This must be taken in its direct context. Otherwise, if we were in charge of our salvation, or keeping it for that matter, we would be lost before breakfast. Who do you think is in charge of that? We never held a high understanding of God or His true authority in the Way, we always gave the devil way more deference and due. God is omnipotent not impotent.

Hello, I hope you will enjoy this quote by Puritan John Owen. I believe it is topic related. "Let no man pretend to fear sin that does not fear temptation also! These two are too closely united to be separated. He does not truly hate the fruit who delights in the root." John Owen

Hello, I have to agree with your statement that you "don't think God made it so difficult that only Greek and Hebrew scholars get to 'know'. " What I have found useful in the past is Matthew Henry's commentary. It can be a good source for ex-way. I am providing a link which I hope will be helpful. Well worth a look and a very handy reference tool. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/henry/mhc6.xii.ii.html

Rereading my last post made me want to add this. It is easy to fall into leagalism. We did it in The Way. It would be a shame for us to continue on or fall back into this. You can't deal with sin by making rules on the outside about how we should act or think. If you don't get to the heart, this will never work. Legalism in the guise of thought reform, isn't strong enough to accomplish anything but bondage. Making rules and forcing yourself to conform to rules won't help. It will end up hurting you. Piety, Hiding away, Momentous, being a Pharisee, going to confession, ten hail Mary's five Our Father's won't do it. There isn't anything external that will handle sin on the inside. The Word of God and the Spirit of God are what we need. Please know, not the "Word" as taught in The Way. If I could encourage anything it would be to toss this in the garbage heap. 1st Peter 2:11, Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul. Abstain from fleshly lusts...the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, the pride of life, stop. Abstain. Not that it is a lifelong process. He says abstain! Romans 6 Sin no longer has dominion over you. You once were the slaves of sin, you're now become servants of righteousness. 1st Corinthians 6, Flee immorality, James, Resist the devil and he'll flee. Stop sinning, resist the devil. Make no provision for the flesh. Romans 13:14 Paul said Put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lust. You can't accommodate it. This is where you look at what you consider in your mind. Stop thinking what makes you not like someone. Quit rehashing all the offenses that you think that person has commited against you, keeping a mental record of the wrong that they have done. Refuse to allow your mind the things that tempt your desires. Keep your heart on Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:18 We all with unveiled face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord the Spirit." As we focus on the glory of the Lord, we're transformed to be more like Christ. You have to have your heart on Christ. You can't be focused on Christ and sin at the same time. 1 John 3: ---if you have that hope in you, then you purify yourself. Dwell on whatsoever things are pure. Let Him occupy your thoughts. Thy Word I have treasured in my heart, that I might not sin against you, Psalm 119. Meditate on it and do what is written. Joshua 1:8. It is a lamp unto our feet, a light to our path, it attacks sin. Jesus said Sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy Word is truth. Fill your heart with it and consider it carefully. Luke 22:40, Jesus said, Pray that you may not enter into temptation. Lead us not into temptation. Order the steps of my life. Keep back Thy servant from presumptuous sins. Ask yourself what is really in your heart. Is it Jesus? It can be things that look like Him, but is it really Him. Love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. Desire self-control. Be filled with the Spirit. Ephesians 5 Do not be drunk with wine, that's dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit. If you want God, be filled with the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. What are you living for? What is in your heart? Fill it with the right thing to fend off temptation when it comes and ask God daily to help you with temptation.

It is not as much the issue of what comes at our minds, in my opinion, but of what comes from inside of us. We are sinful, which is why we need a Savior. Self-examination of one's faith and heart requires a painful honesty and humbleness before the Lord. Are you Christ's? What is your faith really about? What are you filled with? Have you come before Him with a heart of penitence, contrition and asked Him for purification? 2 Corinthians 7:1 says : Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. James says: "Each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust." The devil doesn't make us do things. We are carried away by what is our own lusts. The problem is inside of us. The devil produces things that do TEMPT us through the things of the world. But, that is not the real problem. It says we are tempted when carried away and enticed by our own lust. When lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin. When sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. Reliving past sin as pleasure, scheming new sin as pleasure, all are matters of what is in your heart. Fill it with something better. I would say the "Word" but that is going to mean something different to each of us as we have come from very unsound teaching. Simply go to the Lord and ask Him to help you understand your temptations. We are not alone with the bible as our only guide. In fact, without God, the words and meaning become all twisted and useless. We have a Savior, a personal God who is in this with us. He purifies us and transforms us. Deal with the depths of your heart. We do this often, it is not just a one time thing. It is an event though, not a process. We do not do this on our own or with the bible alone. Jesus is a personal Savior. I would encourage us not to again lose that simplicity in Christ.

Thank you for pointing out the disadvantage of my broad brushstroke answer also thank you for telling me what I should not lose sight of as you know me so well. I have rarely posted here, yet somehow you feel the need to remind me of my Christian duty. Again, you might as well be listening to Coast to Coast or in an Amway seminar as attending one of these churches. That is my opinion.

Exactly! Mark Clarke, I was speaking of Adventist and Sabbatarian churches. A broad brush stroke. I hope this clears it up for you. Thanks for your concern.

For all of VP's slogans about the word, he in no way was a true "bible believer"- his immoral lifestyle is evidence of that. I think many people claim to be commited to the Bible only, but in far too many cases, they are only commited to a man's theology. Our commitment is to Jesus Christ. What is different for me, is the reality of what God is saying thru dozens of different writers over a 1500 year period, authors living on different continents, writing in several languages about the promise of what man truly needs- a redeemer. Jesus. In my opinion if anything other than Jesus Christ being the only rule for faith and practice is taught, it is another gospel or doctrines of demons . Once something such as Administrations or Kingdom theology or Numerology or Purpose Driven whatever is considered the glue that holds it all together, you now have something other than the gospel. You might as well be listening to Coast to Coast. It is just words. Maybe this is why God had to silence Peter and shout from heaven "THIS is my beloved Son hear ye Him" Going on building more tabernacles or offshoots or supposed ministries is not what He intended. Christianity is Christ centered. It is a relationship with the living God. Not with the book about Him. That is not to say the scriptures are not authoritative, they are, but our relationship is with the person of Jesus. How He evaluates each believer is what matters. I see no other choice, but depart from me I never knew you, or enter into the joy of the Lord. It has to be possible to know Him and to be known by Him. That involves something much deeper than reading words on a page or doing a word study. Even working the "Greek." Why would anyone settle for head knowledge or intellectual assent when day to day life can be lived in His presence, guided by Him, and given to Him in service. Fellowship with the living God in a deeply personal way. There is nothing hidden from His eyes, yet we stand before Him in love. Giving ourselves over to Him and His Lordship and transforming work. That is the biblical reality of the abundant life. Rooted and built up in Him as the truth is in Jesus. To sum up: What is different for me now is no longer the bible, the bible, the bible, although I love and search it, it is about the word made flesh. Jesus, that is my first love.