Broken Arrow

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I remember that. Man, that is something I hadn't thought about in a long long time! It wasn't 60 Minutes, though. It was another one of those news magazine shows like 60 minutes. I think it might have been 20/20. Anyway, isn't that the one where they ended up showing that guy who at the time was "legally" deprogramming people? Mike Trawler, I think was his name. I remember calling my dad and telling him about the program and The Way never came on. I remember walking away from the show thankful that The Way was not discussed.

VP didn't write nor did he do any of the research for JCOP. He just put his name to it. If my memory serves me, Cummins said that it was common when scholars did their writings, their research was usually done by their students. I'm not positive on the Cummins comment, but something like that is floating in the back of my mind. Then again, could be something I ate.

Would you happen to know if BG Leonard had this stuff in his class, or did VP combine Leonard's class and the "Magic of Believing"? Maybe not. It probably wasn't taught in the 1st century either.

How about the word "profitable"? Someone would talk about something like it was inside information and arouse your curiosity. When you would ask about what they were talking about, they would say, "It wouldn't be profitable to say any more". They would say it in a "holier than thou" manner too. Eww! That drove me nuts! Good thing I've worked through all those issues! I would elaborate more, but it wouldn't be profitable.

At one time the phrase was "tripped out", i.e. "He's a tripped out grad". I figure the hippies must have brought that in and its a throwback to the drug culture. Then we were sternly told to quit saying "tripped out". Looks like "cop out" replaced it. Hmm, that's so much better.

I have a recurring dream every once in a while where all present and former followers of The Way somehow reach a consensus to meet one last time to say good-bye. VPW is still alive and Craig is there too. Guess maybe I'm still looking for closure. Sometimes I have a dream where I'm back in residence after a very long haitus. For some reason I've decided I still want to finish one last year so I can graduate, but I don't believe the stuff anymore. Always in the midst of the dream I realize I can't graduate and that eventually it will come out that I no longer believe what they teach. That one I haven't quite made sense of.

Indeed! It would seem, unfortunately, that religion can be a breeding ground for someone who wishes to bolster themselves above others and find followers.."sheeps in wolves' clothing I guess. This gives them opportunity to exert control over others' lives. There always seems to be some around who will let them do just that. I suppose we better be careful here because we're starting to stray off the topic.

You have got to be kidding me. That is probably one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. Sneezing spirits??

Awww! That's so cute! 3-year-old sons are an exception. If you haven't already done so, you might consider getting that on tape. You may want it for evidence for when he becomes a teenager. I'm joking, of course. Well, sort of. Anyway, may you have all the blessings of having a delightful child!

I agree with Waysider. Interesting insights Sky4it.

"God bless. We're all a mess!"

How about saying, "I have an opportunity" instead of, "I have a problem"? Or telling someone they were "the best" when clearly they were having probl...er...I mean opportunities with something.

Thanks everyone for your insights. It just seems to me that this doctrine of "Seed of the Serpent" is totally contrived and not at all based on scripture. At best we have folklore that discusses selling one's soul to the Devil. There are a few scriptures one can twist and jam and make it perhaps fit into this strange belief. In my view, this does not jive with the very clear Christian message of unconditional forgiveness. BTW, the "Seed of the Serpent" section of PFAL was pulled by 1974 and I don't recall it being shown anywhere. I was told that some people would become afraid that they were born of the wrong seed. It was, as I recall, taught in the Advanced Class. LCM took this doctrine to new heights. Soon, many successful athletes (Mohammad Ali) were successful because they were "seed boys". As were many musicians. It always put more of a "zip" into his teachings. Wierwille said, or at least I heard he said, that all heads of denominations were born of the seed of the serpent. It was a good way to ostracize certain people that could possibly compete with our admiration of the leaders of The Way.

In reading posts here on GSC about the sexual antics of Wierwille and other TWI leaders, I became curious as to whether Wierwille was teaching the Gnostic gospels to some of the top leadership. I ask this for a few reasons. For one, it appears there was a belief system in place that separated body and spirit. In other words, that which is done with the body does not affect the spirit. Therefore what one does with one's physical body is irrelevant as far as spirituality is concerned. That is gnosticism. There also seems to be some "special knowledge" involved here that was not shared with the masses because they could not "handle it". Part of that was that certain women were called to serve the "Man of God" sexually. Marital vows before God were ignored. There were other types of inner circles in TWI as well. There was definitely a hierarchy and the higher up "The Way Tree" one went, they more one was beyond reproach. There was the Advanced Class where we were supposidely taught...I don't know...the inner truths of God I guess. I found the Advanced Class somewhat of a let down personally. Then there was The Way Corps. I did that too. I attended a lot of Corps meetings where we were supposidely the initiated ones. The ones who were "really committed" to God. Yeah right. Anyway, that was another sanctum. Then there was clergy. I never got there, it was another inner sanctum. On it went until you reached the BOT. The next step was God. Seriously. So, without question, there were some gnostic tendencies that were obvious. But does anyone know if Wierwille was embracing the Gnostic Gospels? I'm just curious. I'm not saying he was, I'm asking.

I was involved in TWI from 1974 until 1989. I have been involved in a few groups since then. While my exposure to other groups is far from extensive, the only place where I heard there was an unforgivable sin was TWI. That is the doctrine where someone could have made Satan himself lord of one's life. I've never heard anyone else teach it, when I've brought it up with other Christian pastors, I get blank stares. Does anyone know where this teaching originated? I will be surprised if this is something Wierwille came up with himself. While I was in TWI and eventually became a Twig Leader, it was not uncommon for me to run into someone who was afraid they were born of the wrong seed (as we put it). Some people got really upset about this. To think there is a sin that God would not forgive is indeed frightening. I no longer believe this doctrine. I believe evil people exist. I believe there are people with hurtful motives. But I don't believe someone is beyond reaching. So, does anyone know what spawned this doctrine?

Waysider, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't someone give him a gift that was a plaque that had that saying on it? Then he went into a tirade after he received the gift? I remember hearing it on a Sunday Night Service tape. But I could have the incident mixed up.

It may not seem like it, but I actually enjoyed reading your post and I agree with about 98% of it. I just disagree with your logic that a belief in inerrancy of scripture being inappropriate in regards to research.

"Nobody suspects the Spanish inquisition!"

I think this "suggestion of a leader being paramount to a command" stuff was actually a quote from someone else like Napoleon or something. Maybe it was from a book that was popular amongst TWI in the late 70's called "Marine!". Anyone remember? I'm about positive this "insight" didn't originate with Wierwille himself. It doesn't seem that very many insights originated with Wierwille himself.

"Special knowledge" you say? You mean, like maybe TWI, STS and rest are/is modern day gnosticism?

While I appreciate this video I get a bit leery when someone starts pointing at surveys and drawing conclusions. One has to find out about the sample. That is, who exactly was interviewed, how many, who performed the survey, what were the questions asked, and how were those questions framed. There are people who are trained in conducting surveys because it's easier than most of realize to mislead people in one direction or another. I just find it hard to believe that 1 out of 3 conservatives believe that Obama is the Antichrist. Frankly, I would find it hard to believe that one out of 3 conservatives are even Christian, much less fundamentalists. Of course, I don't have any facts to back up my claim, I'm just saying that I would take this interview with a grain of salt. It would seem the individual interviewed wants to make a case against fundamentalist Christians and brand them as nuts. Some are, no doubt. But fundamentalism doesn't hold the corner on acting idiotic. There are idiots everywhere, many of them get elected to U.S. Congress and they exist on both sides of the aisle, and they are involved in every issue. I'm not defending fundamentalism. What I see as a main problem in this country and the world is that we are spending too much time looking for someone else to blame instead of working together to find solutions to our problems. I do appreciate seeing this video because it's important to expose oneself to different points of view. I especially like his comment about, "saving Christianity from Christians." I thought that was funny. I think he intended it maliciously, but I still thought it was funny.

There was also the "The Way Corps Poem", which was a re-written rendition of a poem about Boystown. It was credited as such. The first line was, "Not ancient walls or ivy mantled towers where dull, denominational traditions rule with heavy hand believers deeply springing powers." Yeah right.

Babylon Mystery Religion and Challenging Counterfeit were required readings for the Advanced Class. In my Corps you were supposed to read "How to Enjoy the Bible", by E.W. Bullinger. I can't remember any others. They came out with "Jesus Christ Our Passover" and "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" about that same time.

I agree with about everything said so far. I would like to add that even though it may seem like it, you are never alone. There are thousands who can relate to what you are going through. Also, God (or fate, or whatever) has a way of leading you to the right places and people if you keep your heart open and pliable. Be willing to be wrong, and try not to take yourself too seriously. Offshoots, in my opinion, will delay your progress.