Broken Arrow

First of all...you're right. Most Christians accept the canonization of scripture without question and that is unfortunate. I'll take that one step further and I think you'll agree. Most people believe what they believe without putting much thought into it. By the way, canonization of scripture was not done by a Roman pope. No doubt you are referring to Constantine. Constantine called a meeting, or council of bishops (which in those days just meant leaders. Not like the Roman Catholic Bishops of today) to determine and organize the beliefs of the Christian Church (I'm sure someone more educated in church history is grimacing right now, but this is roughly the purpose of the council.) I believe it was the Council of Nicea. Out of that came the canonization we have today. The choices were not as arbitrary as VPW made it sound back in the day. Part of the major criteria was what was already being accepted as scripture in the existing Christian churces. Some of the writings were letters to individuals or individual churches, some were not. I don't believe there are claims in any of the scriptures that state that it has the answers for everything for all time.

I'm not saying Paul would not have garnered a following if he had been a Wierwille, Smith, etc. My point is that the mainstream church would not have embraced his writings had his conduct been as such. The church in Jerusalem along with its leadership as well as the churches in Rome, Antioch and what was then considered Asia all recognized and accepted Paul's leadership. If he had been a Wierwille, Smith etc., he would have been branded a false teacher by those churches. It was not as if those churches had not pointed out other false teachers and warned their fellow Christians about them. I'm suggesting as evidence of his authenticity the way he was accepted by his peers whom we know were true believers. That is, the Apostles at Jerusalem along with James and Barnabus. "Run out of town on a rail" is probably a bad choice of metaphor but I used it to indicate the mainstream church would not have embraced him had he been a womanizer, glutton, drunkard, and pedophile.

I think I get what you're trying to do here as far as getting people to think through something that may have simply been accepted blindly. I'm not going to offer a lengthy defense as to the authenticity of the Pauline Epistles because frankly, I'll doubt that I'll put forth anything you haven't heard yourself hundreds of times. A cursory study of church history will shed some definite light on these questions. Church history is fairly easy to study. I believe you will find there are others who give testimony as to the authenticity of Paul's writings. Not the least of which is the Apostle Peter who refers to Paul's writings as "scripture". The very fact that the early Christians valued Paul's writings enough to protect them is also testament as to how his writings were regarded. It was Luke who wrote Acts and gave testimony as to conduct of Paul and speaks loudly to his "personal credibility". How? By example to be sure, but it's clearly stated the Apostles respected him and offered him the "right hand of fellowship". Ya gotta drop all the rot in TWI about "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church" which IMO is an assassination on the characters of the other Apostles. You're correct about there being scholars out there who now believe that Ephesians was actually written in the 4th century. My only answer to that is that it's a "Johnny-come-lately" theory. This whole concept of "Man of God for Our Day and Time" is rubbish. Wierwille wanted to be considered that so he could fleece the flock and he claimed Paul was the MOG for his day and time. He wasn't. Paul postulated over and over again that Jesus Christ was the center of Christianity. I say all that to say that there is no evidence to suggest that Paul was the Wierwille of his day and time. He was held in high regard by the established church leadership and the church followers. The early Christian church was not a Way Tree. There were different areas like Asia, Galatia, and Rome, and Antioch and they pretty much stood on their own. They didn't get SNS tapes from Paul or from Jerusalem. If Paul had been a "loose cannon" and a womanizer he would have simply been rejected and run out of town on a rail.

If you are referring to the the order of the NT books, VP's claim that the 7 Church Epistles were always in a particular order was a complete fabrication. It was years, like a least a hundred years, before teachers started to put any of the writings together in what is called a "codex". If my understanding is correct, codices were the precursor to books. The letters, or epistles were separate writings as you know. I believe it was a man named Marcion that introduced the first codex, and I'm not sure which writings he included. I'm writing this from memory. Anyway, this flap that Wierwille taught that Romans was doctrinal, I and II Corinthians were reproof and Galatians was correction is simply false since the church in fact did not have the books in that order to begin with. I'm not at all sure what you mean when you say Paul's teachings deviated from the gospel records.

It is indeed "Wooly Bully" by Sam the Sham. Hiway beats Bullwinkle by one minute! Oooh!! A photo finish. Maybe Sports Illustrated should be covering this! I know what you mean about the opening line. For a long time I thought it was "Maddy po plappy...amunna tang ee tall"

Now you're being gracious. This would be "Homeward Bound" by Simon and Gar Farkel. I can see I'm in the midst of music trivia heavyweights. "Uno, dos, one two tres quatro... Matty told Hattie, about a thing she saw."

In Columbus, that would've been a popular show and fun for the whole family.

The Fall of the House of Usher with Vincent Price...one of the best. Omega Man with Charleton Heston and Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds.

I thought of that too. I don't know about the Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists, but the Mormons sure do push family values and that will always hold some attraction for a large number of people.

I follow what you're saying but even as cults go, TWI was pretty anemic in the final analysis. Other cults have survived over a hundred years without the original leader. The Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Seventh Day Adventists to name a few. I don't understand why they keep propogating while others flash out in less than 20 years.

I don't think the "MOG" could stomach the thought that the "ministry" could survive without him. The poop paper (I like that!) was him telling those of us that were around that none of us could make it without him...at least in his mind. He was the only one "spiritual" enough to lead the ministry. Let me be real clear...Wierwille wanted the ministry to fail without him. He could not stand it being successful, not that it was. Perhaps the answer is that many are looking for a hero. Perhaps the answer is many are looking for a good father substitute. I'm getting pretty deep, I know. Someone please pass the chocolate chip cookies.

If only you had said, "whoa-oh-oh-oh oh-oh-oh oh-oh oh-oh-oh". Good choice. I think you get to go again.

I just learned a few things about unemployment. I'll just say this, if you are on staff at TWI, there really is life after TWI, trust me. No one can guarantee that nothing "bad" will happen, but I can tell you "bad" things can happen in or out of TWI. There ain't no "hedge of protection" a HQ.

Is it "Helpless" by Crosby, Stills, & Nash?

Are you sure? I thought in Ohio you still earned unemployment as long as you didn't quit. Even if it was for performance reasons.

I take it you don't read much then about the Vietnam War, Watergate, The Civil Rights Movemant, or, worst of all, The Mary Tyler Moore Show. At least allow yourself to watch old M.A.S.H. reruns.

Don't want to do another one? Okay, I'll do one but it's just that... "It's Getting to the Point Where I'm No Fun Anymore" I am sorry.

Very nice! Why don't you do another one?

Thanks for the cross-reference. I hadn't read that, I didn't know her name.

You're right, it's not worth "losing any sleep over". There's too much accuracy in the rest of the book to blow this one little thing out of proportion. I hesitated to bring it up but it was bugging me.

Yes, I'm sure she was talking about dedications. I thought maybe her editor erred here. I had not considered her challenge in having to explain things to a non-Way audience.

Isn't the name of the song "Little Things"? Johnny Rivers did it...I think. I dunno...some of us took this song personally.

I didn't know this person, but I well remember this incident because I had a friend who lived at HQ. I was a brand new believer then. When I heard this it really had a profound effect on my 17-year-old mind. I mean, I just took PFAL and believers were supposed to have this hedge of protection, right? How could a guy in The Way Corps die? Then I heard it was because he didn't obey "The Man of God" who in this case was LCM when he coordinated the Corps. It frightened me quite honestly and I realized that since I now knew the "Truth", I'd better not disobey the Man of God or I might die!! Worse (to me) someone I love might die and it would be my fault! I was beat up by that false belief for over a decade after that. When I contracted cancer (which was a devil spirit you know) I was sure it was because of my disobedience...somewhere. With this, I never questioned this or any other teaching of The Way (I was afraid to), I always questioned myself when things didn't go well. A very shame-based, miserable way to live. Yet I would go and tell others about "The more abundant life". I wanted everyone to find what I had? Yeah, Waysider, that incident is one of the root events. Saying this, for the first time I grieve for this young man and his family. When he was killed, the only thing people did was defend Way doctrine instead of comforting the grieving. You may also recall at around the same time this young man was killed, there was a young lady on staff that took her own life. Again, that was explained away by her not staying "sharp on The Word". How sad. How very very sad and people were so young.

I read Losing the Way and very much appreciate the author's detail and the candor. It was a very difficult read for me. I was "in" from 1974 through 1989. I went WOW twice, College WOW once, and attended the College Division program at the The Way College of Emporia and eventually graduated from the Way Corps. I thought Wierwille was "it". There was no doubt in my mind that he was The Man of God and that what he spoke was unquestionably God's Word. I believed The Way International was the only hope for the United States. I well remember when "Dr." Wierwille was on what was called "The America Awakes Tour". I sat in the prayer room at Emporia and prayed desperately that America would not fall and would embrace the teachings of Wierwille before it was too late. It was a goal in The Way to take the Word Over the USA in 1976. You know, it being the USA's bicentennial and all. It was exciting for me to be part of the movement that was going to save the nation. Wierwille to me was the example of what it was to be a man. In reading the book I came face-to-face with the fact that what I had aspired to for almost my entire youth was a complete facade. Not only was Wierwille not a man's man, he was not anything like I ever wanted to be even when I was associated with The Way International. I had already pretty much figured that out before reading the book, but Losing the Way helped me to connect real events with these lies. I was present at many of the events the author refers to. I do not recall ever meeting Ms. Skedgell yet we were at a lot of the same places at the same times. I do have a couple of recollections that are different from Ms. Skedgell's that I wanted to ask about here at Greasespot. At the risk of "straining at a gnat", the author refers to VPW as "The Doctor". For some reason that just sticks out to me. In my 15 years in TWI, I never referred to him as "The Doctor". I referred to him as "Dr. Wierwille", "Doctor", and later in the Way Corps we often just referred to VPW simply as "He" or "Him". If you said one of those pronouns at a root locale everyone pretty much knew who you were talking about. Moreover, no one I associated with referred to VPW at "THE Doctor". Some of the older believers called him "Vic", or "Victor". Others who were older and knew him very well would sometimes call him "VP". So did folks, say, from the East Coast refer to him as "The Doctor"? Maybe I've forgotten. Something else that is mentioned in the book that is extremely questionable. On page 111, near the end of the 2nd paragraph Ms. Skedgell in talking about Corps Week says, "all the Corps members get together and everything is free. babies get baptized...leader's get ordained." (emphasis mine) That just has to be an error on the part of the editor. There just isn't any way Kristen could have thought that babies were getting baptized! Not in TWI, right?

BOWTWI had the correct answer BTW.