Broken Arrow

Wow! That's awesome! They must have had a real heart for what they were doing. Perhaps "revolutionary" is the wrong word. Maybe "somewhat unique" is better. Even then I'm just talking about people I was around. Church, for us, was in a building and Christianity was simply something one did on Sundays. That certainly wasn't the way everyone felt, but I and a lot of my peers grew up that way. Neat story about your grandparents, Skyrider.

Hi Skyrider. I got in the same year you did but left in '89. I think things were legalistic in TWI even in those early years. You say, and many agree, that in the early 70's there was "some ebb and flow of enthusiasm and individuality". I'm of a different opinion. Yes, I remember well the young folk with their guitars and their talk of the Love of God. Still, there was a tinge of what you call "lockstep legalism" even then. Wierwille was still the center and we were all correcting each other on every little thing that was said "off the Word", or negative, or worldly. One problem that I haven't heard mentioned on any posts on GSC is that TWI and other cults gained prominence during the 70's because the mainstream church allowed itself to become irrelevant. Talk of real problems and issues people faced were not welcome in most churches. Everyone was supposed to have short hair (for men)wear an uncomfortable suit (also for men) and shut up. Segregation and racial discrimination were rampant. The church was just about invisible during the Civil Rights movement going on at the time and seemed to have no opinion concerning the Vietnam War and other issues facing the nation at the time. Along came Wierwille and TWI who had meetings in the home! That doesn't mean a whole lot to some of the younger set around today, but in 1974 it was revolutionary. Meet in the home and not in a church, and I can have a cookie as well? Wow! So VPW did all these things which really touched a nerve in all of us. However, he introduced his own brand of legalism. It went over smoothly because we were in the middle of rebelling against the status quo. The fact that most of our parents disagreed with our involvement in TWI msde it even more attractive to many of us. I know many believe the mainstream church is still out of step and they make some valid points. I for one believe the church has corrected their problem mainly because many of the leaders today were once those long-haired "Jesus People" of the 70's. But that's just my opinion.

Sadly enough, I believe this. Normally I wouldn't believe something like this, but knowing TWI, I do. Pitiful. If it's a family then there are kids involved. So this guy is sleep depriving his kids. That's called abuse. Do you realize how important sleep is in the physical developement a child? You probably do, I'm preaching to choir here.

Maybe kind of a silly point, but I remember that "no dreaming" teaching as well. So I condemned myself for years because I dream a lot. Then one day I was sitting in my living room and my dog was sleeping on the floor. At one point her little paws started moving and she started very softly barking. My dog was dreaming about something and I thought, "Hmm...is my dog out of fellowship? Does she have unresolved issues from her childhood that she hasn't worked out? Then I wondered what she could possibly be dreaming about. Perhaps, in her dream, the mailman actually stayed on the porch instead of leaving. Maybe the mutt next door ate her bowl of Alpo. Obviously God can talk to someone any way He wants. I just don't think we should laud it too high.

Sorry, I couldn't get this to read the way I needed it to so I had to cancel out. I'll post later. In any event, I really appreciated your post Wordwolf. You really "hit the nail on the head".

The spelling and order of the books of the Bible was something useful that I was taught. I also managed to memorize several Bible verses while in TWI and that has proven useful to me even today...that's about it. The rest of the "research" quite frankly is rather unimpressive to me now that I'm older and my skull has fully hardened.

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AHHH! YIKES!!! :o

You knew I was joking, right? About the "you" part that is.

They must have a mole!

And I appreciate that, Roy! You're obviously a very nice man!

Ah! A new retemory! Is this the same child that when she is being scolded she shakes her fist and says, "This is America!"?

I thinked they backed up from that a little by the time I took the AC. It's probably because of you! Anyway, do you remember come about 75 or so a teaching started kind of drifting among the believers that there wasn't even any use in praying to God with your understanding because He couldn't hear you? The only thing he could understand was speaking in tongues. Remember that? That teaching didn't stick around very long and I never heard anyone like Wierwille or Cummins teach it. I think maybe that was one of LCM's teachings when he was Corps Director.

In other words, "Don't confuse me with the facts" with a religious twist. I once asked if man is body, soul, and spirit, and at death the body returns to dust, the soul dies, and the gift (small g) of holy spirit (small h, small s) goes back to God, and if the soul is not eternal, what gets up when you're resurrected? I didn't get an answer. I didn't have the guts to say that to anyone in authority. I sort of intrinsically knew that I would probably get in trouble, especially since I was in the Way Corps at the time. You're not supposed to have questions like that if you're in The Corps. You're supposed to be "fully persuaded".

Hi Spec, I enjoyed reading your post. You bring up some good points. I agree with most of what you say namely that Christians are born again with incorruptible seed that will not be stolen away. Certainly there is sin in this world and that affects those who are children of God and that sin will not take away our eternal standing before the Father. I am not coming against the idea of eternal life. What I am bringing into serious question is so-called Great Priniciple and the implications thereof. I personally believe that this teaching of the Great Principle is one of the most damaging doctrines the Way International purported. It relegates God to a principle, and it totally strips intimate relating to the Father. I personally think it makes a rather silly game between God and the believer. Another implication of the Great Principle is this separation between the spirit and flesh. I believe this is where you have some, shall we say issues, with what I posted. Without going into too much detail, I would like to say a dangerous teaching of TWI and other "name it and claim it" ministries is it's concept of sin. Does sin sound a little to "archaic", or "silly"? Then let's use the definition of "sin" which is "missing the mark". I believe a Christian is in serious derision if they believe a just God will not hold them accountable for their actions to their fellow man. There are warnings in the Gospels about abusing children. Jesus said it's better that a millstone be hung around someone's neck and have them thrown into a lake than to bring any harm to the little ones. There are warnings in the Epistles about leaders bringing harm and abusing their flock. There are scriptures all over the Bible about the poor oppressing the weak. I could go on and on but I don't want to derail this thread. Especially since I started it. What's this all going to look like? Darned if I know. I believe that seed is incorruptible, eternal, holy and probably a lot more. But I no longer believe that deeds done with the body are irrelevant in the God's eyes. I'm not talking about hitting your thumb with a hammer and yelling "poopie!" I'm also not saying that anyone is sinless and there isn't Grace. In fact, for a person that wants to discontinue a life of hurting others and themselves, the Kingdome will spend itself unreservedly for them. Again, I don't know all the answers. I just believe God is just, and that God will even the playing field someday. I don't believe we have some free pass given to us by Jesus that allows us to take advantage of our fellow man. Anyway, I hope that's clear.

VP makes an assumptive statement in PFAL that "God can only speak to that which He is which is spirit...." Therefore God only speaks to those in whom the spirit (small s) of God dwells. The Great Principle, which is not taught in PFAL, but was taught in the Advanced Class, says God, who is Spirit (Capital S) teaches (or speaks to) His creation in you which is now your spirit (small s). So no, God cannot speak directly to the human mind. At least that's my take on it. So, I think another way of looking at it is that God has placed within you a divine receptionist who is holy spirit. When he wants to say something He dials the receptionist who takes copious notes and then calls you. Hopefully you answer and will act accordingly. Now, if you want to talk to God, you tell your divine receptionist who then dials God and if God feels like answereing, He does. Unfortunately God cannot understand English, or any human language for that matter even though He is all-knowing and all powerful. Understand? It's all very simple and fits like a foot in a mouth. If that isn't intimacy with the Father, I don't know what is.

Thank you for passing that information along! I very much enjoyed listening to Torme's version. A while back I came across a version on You Tube that he did with his son. His son wasn't bad either and they really "cooked" on this song. Thanks again!

Okay, I'm a little embarrassed here. The song is "Lulu's Back in Town". Mel Torme did just an awesome version of this song a few years ago but You Tube must have pulled it. It's an old song that's been done by a few jazz crooners and it dates back to 1935. So as you can imagine, the earlier versions were a bit "tinny". The Mills Brothers also did it and as you might imagine, Lulu did it in the 60's for obvious reasons. I picked a version by Fats Waller which is nice. But the reason I was excited about this song was because of Mel Torme's version which I cannot provide for you now. Sorry.

Huh? Strawman? This thread's proposition is "what if Paul were a con man, VPWOHDT, flim-flam man, etc etc." so some people are answering as to why that is not the case. How is that concocting a strawman argument? You accuse people of refuting your statements with circular logic. Namely, you claim that people are saying, "Paul's words are God's words. Why? Because it says so in the Bible." That's not what's been happening at all. Reasons have been stated as to the authenticity of Paul and Paul's writings. I would write the whole argument out again but you're not reading it in any of the other posts that have stated it rather clearly. The reasoning is far from circular. There have been historical points offered as well as evidence outside that of the scriptures. Are you actually reading and considering what other people are saying?

Gret guess but no...think Mel Torme. Here's the bridge: "You can tell all my pets, All my blondes and brunettes, Mr. Otis regrets that He won't be around." "You can tell the mailman Not to call. I won't be at home Until the Fall and I may not be back home at all...." I won't belabor this much longer. If someone doesn't guess I'll reveal the answer.

"Gotta get my ol' tuxedo pressed, Gotta sew a button on my vest 'cause tonight I gotta look my best...."

Do we have to do Rock? I've got one I've had on my mind for days and I think you'll recognize it. It's of the jazz genre and it's been sung by a variety of "crooners". "Gotta get my ol' Tuxedo pressed, Gotta sew a button on my vest...."

Thanks Waysider and Boshie. That gives me something to go on. To answer your question about who VP got the RHST stuff, much of it was from someone named J.E. Stiles I believe. That's the guy God had him meet when he was trapped by a (ahem) "snowstorm" in Tulsa. VP liked him, he said, because of the way he treated his wife which was bossy and inconsiderate.

This one's been making the rounds at my office lately. I think it's pretty funny. This is a montage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI58wj4b4g0

Oh, I dunno about that. Have you forgotten about "Real Clean Window Cleaning"?