Broken Arrow

It's when they're camped in the woods and Jack Nickelson (sp?) has the quoted dialogue with Dennis Hopper. Okay! Enough said! Let's get this thread back on track with what it should be: "Show Me the Money!! Show me the money!!"

I'm not one to be picky but...it was 3 hours a night for 3 weeks!! And yes, I do remember the pen thing you were talking about. Sometimes I would open the top up just because I was bored and I wanted something to do. ("duh...watch the drum spin...watch the tape feed all the way...uh yup! Ooooh! Look at it all go back into one place when you hit stop!! What a honor all this is...my 24h time through the class and it never gets old...zzzzz

Nice metaphor!

He doesn't address homosexuality in the 2 clips included in this thread, but he does in other clips on You Tube. He also discusses what you are referring to as "presdestinationalism", which is more commonly known as "Calvinism".

It's "Boom Boom Boom" by John Lee Hooker. Actually, I'm thinking this wasn't fair. I just got excited about he song. It's obscure, and I just realized that he doesn't sing it the same way twice. So it would have been difficult to pick out the title from one line, anyway. I apologize. Here it is if you're interested: Free post, somebody!

Unbelievable! That was the most powerful scene in the movie, I thought. Sorry, George. Thanks for explaining the rules. By the way, just in case you're curious, the line is from Easy Rider

"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you and talk to you and talk to you about individual freedom. But if they see a free individual it's gonna scare 'em." "Well it don't make 'em running scared" "No. It makes 'em dangerous."

That line is from Glengary Glenross (sp?), spoken by Alec Baldwin.

What's this? You mean the so-called Wierwille home at HQ or did TWI own yet another asset few of us knew about?

Geisha, Thank you for including this, I found it helpful. I'm like you, I agree with SOME of what he says so I don't think one should discount everything he says. He brings some good points to the table. I'm just concerned that he doesn't realize that God has made us all different...and on purpose, too!

No, not this time. Think Blues Brothers. When she walk that walk And talk that talk And whisper in my ear Tell me that she love me

"A-boom boom boom boom" "A-how how how how"

Last December on a thread called “Spectator Christianity”, I got into a brief conversation with Waysider over some opinions voiced by pastor named Mark Driscoll. Driscoll’s comments center on involving men in the Church specifically young men in their 20’s and he says, “…the Church needs more dudes”. Waysider took issue with this saying that Driscoll was espousing a “macho man” type of image. I felt that we were getting off topic and that our discussion should be on a different thread to which Waysider agreed. That was back in December and it is now April. I never started another thread or said another word about this topic since. I just couldn’t think of anything to say really. The truth is, I have mixed feelings on Driscoll’s statements. Here is the link: I believe that men, at least in Western culture have lost their hearts and that the church fosters this. From a very young age little boys are taught that “big boys don’t cry”, or “don’t be a sissy”, or “keep a stiff upper lip”, or “never let ‘em see you sweat”, “Keep a poker face and never ‘em see your cards”. I think every boy has been derided at some time in his life about being a “cry baby”. The result is that men are for the most part not present, either emotionally and sometimes not even physically. In order to survive in Western culture, in order to “fit in” and not be isolated in most circles, a man has to shut down the emotional part of himself…his heart. Everyone who deadens a part of himself does so at great expense. Men rarely talk about anything of any substance with each other or with anyone else. Two men meeting each other for the first time will ask the other, “So, where do you work? What do you do for a living?” As if our self-worth and who we are is tied up in what we produce for society. How very shallow, really. Christian men are even worse because we think we have to put on our “happy Christian face” all the time. To us, it’s all about how we look. We think it’s necessary to look like we have it together or somebody might get wise to the fact that we really don’t and that would be just terrible. People might start asking questions and eventually find out we’re confused, scared, and worried about the future. Perhaps there is a medical diagnosis we’re afraid of hearing. Maybe we’re concerned about a job loss, or losing the ability to earn an income. Maybe one of my teenage children is making bad decisions. We could make a list. These are real concerns that real people face everyday. Let someone else in to help share my burden? No way, they’ll think I’m weak and I’ll feel ashamed! Some say men don’t like emotions or emotional things. That’s only partly true. The whole truth is, most men are afraid of emotions because they can’t control them. Many men are also afraid of their wife’s and children’s emotions for the same reason. Emotions can betray us. They can let others know that all is not well in our little worlds. Being exposed as weak and vulnerable (which happens to be the truth) we fear shame. To bury emotion, often men turn to addictive substances such as alcohol, or drugs, or pornography or other forms of sexual deviation. The problem is, one cannot truly bury emotion. It’s like trying to drag a big ball full of air to the bottom of a deep swimming pool. That ball is eventually going to make its way to the surface. When that happens, it’s usually at the most inconvenient time and we often hurt people we care about. If a man is wise, he will seek out others with whom to be vulnerable. Someone who he can say for example, “I’m scared to death. I am completely disconnected from my 14-year-old daughter and we only grow further and further apart”. I believe along with Driscoll that men, for the most part, are not free to be who they are in the Church or in society for that matter. Other points I agree with Driscoll on notwithstanding, I am concerned that his view of masculinity is too one dimensional. Driscoll says, “The Church needs more dudes”. What does he mean by “dude”? One can’t tell because “dude” is non-specific. So I’m left to my own interpretation and to me, he is referring to a specific type of man. A man that is “macho” (also slang), a producer, competitive, mechanically inclined, athletic with a good job. Not someone who might actually have a problem or a defect or a weakness. That’s what comes across to me. Is this what he meant? I don’t know, but I think so. Another point he is talking about the Church “needing”. So now we’re out to recruit specific individuals based on generalities? Instead of reaching out to the “least” and the “lost”, and “those in need”, now we’re looking for “dudes”. Why? Because we need them. We need their ideas, their money, their influence, etc. We need them in order for us to look good. Isn’t that sort of a selfish focus? What about what they need? What about what society needs? Finally, who is Mark Driscoll that he can judge other male pastors as feminine? That, to me smacks of arrogance. So, yeah, I agree there is a problem with men that the church needs to address, but I think Driscoll misses the mark in his assessment.

As an answer to your question "where do they get this stuff", I believe it starts in PFAL where VP goes on his rant and says, "You know what killed that little boy! Just quit yakkin' about anything else! You know what killed that little boy! It was the fear...in the heart, and life, of that mother!" In Wayworld, human pain and suffering are controllable. If anyone experiences it, then the person, not the teaching, must be flawed. Else the entire charade of The Way would come crashing down and they would have to admit they're wrong. If they're wrong then they're no more special than anyone else and then the notion of being "God's Best" is underminded. No, it has to be the individual suffering that is at fault. I will now return you to your regularly scheduled program..."Jack-a$$e$ and e-mails".

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You got that right! I think that's because when someone was "in" and then leaves it's an affront to an organization that is steeped in legalism. TWI makes all these claims about how wonderful one's life will be if they just "take the class" or whatever the next rung is. When someone has climbed those rungs and then says, "Hey, this is false!" People that are still "in" have to justify why they are still "in" and the only thing they can do is attack the character of the person who left. The truth is, it's more to convince themselves than anything else because somewhere deep down they are still incomplete and what they are doing isn't working...and they know it! I will say that Shellon must have rattled a few cages.

Shellon, I would like to echo everyone's sentiments here and say that I am appalled that a human could even conceive to compose such a letter. For what it's worth, I for one am glad that you chose to share your story and "open up" as you say. You are paying a price, but I for one will say that reading your story helped me connect with parts of myself that needed healing. Your writings have helped me to think through my own involvement in TWI in more detail and with more honesty and I have begun to commit some of this to paper. It's been very helpful, so thank you.

Glad things turned out well for you!

It doesn't work that way. They never think they're wrong when it comes to "standing with the Ministry". They will find something, anything about you to shake their heads over and go "tsk, tsk, tsk, she's so tricked." If you had a good job with a decent income they would say you're into money. If you live humbly they would say you are falling short of your calling. If you're going to a church or something that really fulfills you, they would say you're mind is given over to devil spirits. It goes on and on and on. Speaking for myself, it took an actual catastrophic event to snap me out of it. I'm lumping TWI and the splinter groups together on this. I had to realize my life wasn't working and the direction I was going was headed toward a trainwreck. So I pulled back on the stick and got out of there. I was involved with that stuff for 20 years. Until that time, I was one of those self-righteous Corps grads shaking my head and waving my finger, like I had any idea about anything regarding reality.

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Maybe he did!

Ya got it!

This was definitely on the pop charts in the mid to late 60's even on the top 40 "bee bop" stations. But the artist is not a rocker. The line I previously quoted is from the "bridge". Here's another line: "You're ridin' high in April, shot down in May. But I know I'm gonna change that tune, When I'm back on top (back on top) in June."

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