Broken Arrow

I'm sure the rest of you have moved on, but I just realized when I posted this I made a rather serious typo. Rather than saying that when I was new in TWI that I was surprised that "Wierwille himself was a scholar", I meant to say that I was surprised at the time that Wierwille was NOT a scholar.

Interesting points, Sunesis. I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion in regards to Paul, but you build a good case. What you say regarding Paul's not using the Old Testament is questionable. Romans and Galatians contain quite a few quotes. But I'm in danger of derailing this thread. Thank you for your post. It gives me something to think about.

nevermind :)

This thread really needs to die.

Long Tall Sally?

Indeed, they are sucking up our air!! Does TWI really have a new class, again?

I never considered that. Good point. So basically, learning the Word better than its been known since the first century was simply a country preacher doing word studies. If he saw that something had the same root, he assumed the meanings were the same. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say VP probably didn't even have a consultant that knew anything about Greek. He openly admitted that he didn't know Greek. It's on (or was on. I understand they're being edited) a SNS tape where he says he didn't know Greek. He did say, "you can't fool me on it". I remember that because I was new in the ministry at the time and was surprised that Wierwille himself was a scholar. I thought he had a doctorate in theology. This would have been sometime in 1975.

The operative word here is "they say". What TWI SAID became of James' ministry. I don't buy that what they said is accurate at all. At best, they are projecting their own falleness into the Jerusalem. However, I think it was more to point that: First there was Jesus, the Peter but he sort of fell short, still a good man, though. Then there was Paul, a REAL man of God, then he died and the light of God's Word went with him, the church sunk into Catholocism, Martin Luther turned on a lightbulb but then...TA DA!! IT SNOWS FOR VICTOR AND WE'RE SAVED!! FINALLY, FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE FIRST CENTURY, WE HAVE THE TRUE WORD OF GOD!! Good thing I'm not sarcastic or anything. It was LCM, by the way, that emphasized that the word for "receive", when the believers in Jerusalem received Paul was dechomai. It was also LCM that said the use of dechomai indicated that Paul received a cold reception from James and the others. Wierwille never taught that. He didn't correct Martindale either and this teaching came out when VP was still prez.

Aww! If God wanted those other people to be saved he would have made them to understand English!! He has foreknowledge doesn't He?! Besides, they're just body and soul without the spirit of God, so who cares?

In I Timothy 1:15, the Apostle Paul writes that, "...all they which dwell in Asia be turned away from me...." KJV We heard it taught in TWI that verse meant, well, that everyone turned away from Paul. Yet later in that same epistle Paul lists people for Timothy to greet that obviously did not abandon him. As a matter of fact, Timothy was allegedly in Asia at the time of this writing, and he hadn't abandoned Paul. So what did Paul mean by this? I honestly don't know. Anyone have any additional insight on this?

Now Martindale took this to a whole different level with his teaching on the Book of Acts. In it, James was a traitor, Peter and Barnabus were nice guys but they were "softees". Pretty soon the church became pretty much milktoast and made compromises in the face of persecution. Both Wierwille and Martindale taught that early Christians were martyred because of their weakness of believing. All was lost until God talked to Wierwille. Once Wierwille passed, LCM was the man. I didn't hang around long after he took the reigns, but I remember how he was prior to becoming President. He was a zealot. He gave unflinching, unquestioning obedience to Wierwille and taught others to do the same. When he took over, he expected the same type of commitment to him. Someone else will have to speak about how he walked this stuff out. I've often felt that LCM missed his true calling. He would have done well as one of Hitler's "Brown Shirts", or as an officer in the SS. These teachings in Acts had a huge impact on how TWI governed their "congregation" as it were. Much of the brokeness and pain many of us experienced from TWI have their roots in these "unique" teachings from Acts by Wierwille and Martindale. I have concluded, personally, that life in The Way International was not a Christian experience. In my opinion, TWI wasn't an organization that was well-intended in the beginning and just went astray due to human frailty even though I believe there were individuals that were genuine. I also believe some people were Christians and wanted to do God's will. As far as the organization of TWI, I believe they were in error from the moment they were conceived and that the lifestyle they teach is not the same as what Jesus taught.

Before this thread goes by the wayside, I wanted to make one more observation. Wierwille made a major point out of I Timothy 1:15 where in the King James The Apostle Paul says, "All they which dwell in Asia be turned away from me." Regarding this, he "wrote" in The Word's Way that the first step on the road downward is turning away from "the Man of God." The implication was that people turned away from Paul and all was lost until God made it snow for young Victor. God did that as evidence of his promise to teach VPW the Word of God since it hadn't been known since the first century. Now The Great Mystery has been revealed and it's "Christ in you, the hope of glory (or GLOW-way)! Very Little was said about any other teacher and in fact the original 12 Apostles were sort of considered as missing the mark, even Peter. Everyone, but Paul. As far as after Acts, the only other teacher ever mentioned with some degree of respect was Martin Luther. So it was the Apostle Paul, Martin Luther, V.P. Wierwille. This was all under VP's reign. This sold well to kids who at the time were baby-boomers looking for a purpose. So, to disagree or go against Wierwille was akin to disagreeing with God Himself. On top of that, stories from the Bible such as Miriam in Exodus contracting leprosy for disobeying Moses were taught with the same implication that disobedience to Wierwille could have very dire consequences. That's why so many of us were afraid to leave. I mean, wasn't Moses a mere man? Yet, look what happened to people when they went against him. I'm just explaining the logic, I'm not agreeing with it at all. That's why Wierwille held so much power over people. One hears these crazy stories about how people were manipulated to do crazy stuff and it begs the question as to how seemingly intelligent people could just hand their very lives over to a crackpot. If you were in the Corps or in that sort of ilk, you did what you were told and if you did, God would make sense out of it all later. Just do what you're told and it will all be clear someday. Even if the Man of God is wrong, God will still bless you for your obedience. If you disobey, especially Wierwille, they you were wide open for attack and God won't protect you because you've stepped out from under the "umbrella of believing".

Waysider has it! You're up!

A Wayfer wrote it? I just heard it like a couple of weeks ago.

Okay, let's do this: Here is the first verse: "When I see her comin' down the street I get so shaky and I feel so weak. I tell my eyes to look the other way But they don't seem to hear a word I say." That should be better

I should have mentioned that this is the "bridge" in the song. I'll continue with it since it will get more familiar: "I can remember what she said when she said, 'Good-bye...baaay-be. We'll meet again soon maaay-be.'

The James their referring to is the one who was the half-brother of Jesus. Most agree that this James is the one who was a main leader of the Church in Jerusalem, that part is not exclusively a TWI thing. Don't ask me how they figure that out. I'm sure someone here knows all about that. I take it you're familiar with VP's teaching on Paul going to Jerusalem and how the King James mis-places commas to make Paul look good. A lot of people that post here think V.P.'s interpretation is correct. However, LCM, several years after V.P. taught this, taught a class called "The Rise and Expansion of the Christian Church". It came out in the mid-80's as I recall and it centers on the Book of Acts. In that class he goes into detail on how the Apostle Paul was in fact betrayed by James and the believers in Jerusalem when he visited there. It was during that trip that Paul was captured and imprisoned. LCM portrays James as conceited, hard-hearted and jealous of Paul and his ministry. He portrays Paul as wanting to do the right thing and going along with some things James says that eventually lead to his imprisonment. Even though V.P., to my recollection, never publically said he thought the class was accurate, he did have LCM teach Rise and Expansion live at Advanced Class '79. I believe this silence from Wierwille, and him allowing it to proceed unhindered was his endorsement of this heretical teaching. Hope that answers your questions.

"I can remember what she said when she said..."

I had not considered that little insight.

Good point! Actually, an obvious point. Martindale based this entire doctrine of James' betrayal on the fact that when the Bible says the disciples in Jerusalem received Paul it's the word dechomai. According to TWI dechomai means to receive subjectively as opposed to enthusiastically.

I always thought it was called, "Learn to Play the Saxophone", by Steely Dan. Is it maybe called "Scotch Whiskey"?

A horse walks into a bar and orders a drink. The bartender says, "Sure bud, but why the long face?"

NASA has opened a restaurant on the Moon. I hear the food is great, but there's no atmosphere.

Omnigosh! You have got to be kidding! That's just plain sick! By the way, Martindale came up with all that garbage about Paul being betrayed by James and the believers in Jerusalem. Wierwille endorsed it with his silence imo. That teaching is almost blasphemy in my opinion because it is so far from the truth. The truth is, according to church history, James was known for being kind and benevolent. He was actually stabbed to death while going into the Temple because it was rumored he escorted a gentile into the temple. Martindale was way off bounds by speaking of a man like James in this fashion. Of course, it wasn't really blasphemy. It's pretty bad though.

They did? That wasn't my experience, I was basically told to shut up and that I didn't know enough to ask any questions. I was told to take the class and once I had the "logic of the Word" in me, I could ask questions. That was at a twig where the legendary Tom J. was teaching. I took the class and handed about a page of questions to the class instructor at the last session like we were told we could do. Privately, I was told that I obviously hadn't listened well enough in the class and needed to re-take it. That was during the break at session 12. After the break, he proceeded to read my questions to the rest of the group and pointed out to everyone how I hadn't paid attention. He didn't mention me by name, but everyone pretty much knew it was me. Hell, there were only 7 new students in my class. Good thing that doesn't bother me anymore, otherwise I might have some issues. :P