Broken Arrow

Current picture of the ROA grounds?

After I posted my previous response, I thought of something else regarding this question in particular. You asked a clergyman how this sort of thing could happen and he answered the above. What about in the Gospel of John when the disciples asked Jesus about the blind man? The question was, who sinned, this man or his parents that he was born blind. Jesus' reply was neither, I'm sure you know the rest of the record. I guess we just threw that record out when it suited us. TWI could not accept the fact that someone could be in TWI, have bad things happen to them, and it not be the fault of anyone. They couldn't face the fact that sometimes bad things happen for no apparent reason, even if you're believing. It's just too frightening. I agree that it's frightening at times. But manipulating facts or making up stuff isn't going to solve anything. Therein lies the true powerlessness of TWI in my opinion. It forces a magical make believe world. How Cathartic! Thanks TeachMe!

MAL stands for (get this) "Mobile Abundant Life". I'll let Excie explain the silk sea sponges.

Now they don't let the staff go home for Christmas? What about the in-residence Corps nowadays? The only ones who had to stay put for the holidays were the W.O.W.'s.

Sooo many one-liners...sooo little time.

TeachMe may be talking about Dave Garibaldi although I don't think he was with Starship. He was with Tower of Power. There was Denny Hoeffer and Skip Mesquite also with Tower of Power, and didn't Bob Stanley hit the big time too? I don't think they were with Starship either. Didn't Denise Williams (Let's Hear if for the Boy?") get involved? Some say Prince at one time was involved, but that seems to be a topic of debate.

There we go again, just make it up as you go along as long as you make it sound "spiritual". (Not you, the clergyman). Really though, this is different in practice from what what TeachMe is asking. Those groups have an "expert" on hand that will interview you. Trust me, they will find a generational curse or sin somewhere. Then they have a team of people pray over you. I don't know if they charge for their services or not, but I expect they get money from you somehow. Whereas TWI just used this belief to explain things away. They got their money from "The Wonder Class" and ABS. With these groups, their main "bread and butter" is discovering and then praying against the supposed "sins of the father". The reason I know this is because we got a guy here locally that does this. He even bought an old church building. I worked with a guy that went through this. Eventually he embraced the doctrine fully. Hey, it's a great way to clear yourself of any responsibility. I mean, the reason I'm a thief (for example) is because of my great great great grandfather. Instead of "The Devil made me do it" (I'm dating myself), it's "Grandpa made me do it".

Do you think there might be some little "VP's" around whose mother isn't "Dotsie?" You would think someone would have come forward by now if that were the case. But you never know. <_<

I'm so sorry, Excie. I'm glad you survived and are still involved in life even throught the pain. We're all behind you. They don't believe it to be true. I was out for over a decade before I realized it, and that was when I read Kristin's book.

You've got it Bean! You're up!

OH! That is so ridiculous! Geesh! How is that supposed to draw you closer to God? How is that supposed to develop in you a "heart for leadership"? Don't you wish you would have thought to booby trap the drawer somehow? Like put a fart balloon in there, or something gooey and then just look embarrassed when the inspector jumped back surprised? Underwear drawer inspections, how ludicrous!

I don't even think they did that crap in the army. Not the way TWI did anyway. TWI wished they could be like the military. VP was never in the military but he was always comparing the Corp to the military. We didn't get inspected on how we folded our undershorts, but our bureau drawers had to be in order.

They think I & II Peter were written by John Mark if I'm not mistaken, right?

Yeah, write 'em down. By that time, hopefully you'll have forgotten about them.

Kenyon Hall at the Emporia campus had a big lighted dove up high. They put that up shortly after they took the cross off of the chapel. Yeah, you're right, the dove was just a replacement for a cross. You didn't have to be a certain status to get a dove pin. Just buy one. If you weren't in the Corps you probably didn't get so harshly scolded for not having it point to your heart. Someone would say something, though. Fellow Laborers probably got "busted" over it though.

Oh yeah! All the time. I've even done it myself and continue to do it if I'm not careful. That whole "Believing=Receiving stuff", and "Abundant Sharing stuff" that TWI propounded is a good example. But people in all walks of life do it too. Let's say in my freedom I decide to adhere to a strict diet. Eventually I become incredibly healthy, lose weight, and in my case, certain physical maladies disappear. Great! However, things start getting twisted if I take that freedom and start finding my self worth through my adherence to my newfound diet. If I don't live up to this new standard I've set for myself, then I'm encased in shame. Maybe I even start judging others who don't have my "discipline" (ever been around a self-righteous ex-smoker?) Initially I was simply choosing to eat differently. Does this address your question, or am I chasing a rabbit trail? Nothing wrong with choosing a new diet, it's what I do with it.

Sorry, I thought that would be easy. Here's the beginning of the 2nd stanza, "And here's to you...Jesus loves you more than you will know."

Sure. If the MOG screws your spouse, or if someone swears like a sailor in front of 5-year-olds or beats his wife, or gets someone other than his wife pregnant, then it's grace, man. Go ahead and get an abortion there's no condemnation. It's not profitable to bring up these sorts of things and they certainly should not be brought up in public so as not to embarrass anyone. However, leave a speck of dust on the piano while doing set-up, arrange the flowers at the podium incorrectly, or have chairs not perfectly lined up, or not have enough songbooks out, there will be Hell to pay...in public too! Furthermore, if you're a guy, you'd better have your holy spirit lapel pin in place and your name tag on the right. If you've been WOW, the holy spirit dove should be facing the wow pin, which should be over your heart. Failure to do any of these would result in a serious tongue lashing, often in public. Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, geesh!

Dee dee-dee-dee dee dee dee-dee dee dee dee-dee dee. Do do-do-do do do do-do doooooooo. Dee-dee-dee dee dee dee dee dee dee-dee deeeeee.....

Garsh! I just love all this attention! I'm just going by the profile, listed as a male. Hey, "I didn't write the book, I'm just reading what's written!" Remember the Saturday Night Live sketches about "Pat?"

INAGADDADAVIDA?

Sunesis is a guy.

But there are groups out there who will sit you down, interview you, and then supposidely pinpoint something sinful from an ancestor. I remember VP talking about the sins of the fathers being passed down, and LCM would do his tirades...but TWI didn't go through this complex, introspective process of finding something wrong in one's family line hundreds of years ago and then praying through it.

I'm not aware of TWI engaging in this practice, at least not up to 1989 when I left. This would contradict their doctrine of forgetting the past. You know..."forgetting those things which are behind and focusing solely on the needs of my leader"...er...uh...something like that. TWI typically discounted past events and in my experience even embarrassed others who were "hung up in the past". I have heard and actually talked with people involved in the sort of ministry you're discussing and I would urge caution. It is true, in my opinion, that someone in a family can commit such a heinous act that it can SOMETIMES affect a family line for generations and CAN show up in moods, dispositions, even physical problems...SOMETIMES. SOMETIMES this comes up in counseling or even prayer ministry. SOMETIMES when this is prayed through, it can bring about healing. What so often happens, though, is that someone will either experience healing, or see someone else experience healing in this fashion and then make a doctrine or a practice out of it. It then becomes THE WAY to pray for someone. What do you get but another cult? Perhaps well-intended, but a cult nonetheless. It can be very compelling to witness this sort of thing at first. In the end it turns out to be just another trip. This type of thing is the genesis for so many movements. They will take one possibly genuine attribute of God and blow it way out of proportion. Many "healing ministries" do this, I believe the "Prophetic Movement" has done this, others have done this over the centuries. Most of the time it's a dog and pony show and one guy is getting the glory. Again, just some of my own thoughts on the matter.

I don't know about the "few decent Biblical Principles", but back in my day (before they invented false teeth) LCM used to yell about how parents should provide a higher education for their children. In those days that mostly meant corps tuition. Parents, not grandparents. I guess after hitting up their parents for corps tuition, these kids became parents themselves on staff. Then suddenly it became grandparents being responsible. I guess there weren't as many grandparents on staff. I mean, this gets more and more ridiculous the more you look at it. As far as him yelling about how no Way believer should claim state benefits, that's what I remember and that was still the state of things when I left. I was let go from a job and it was quite a while before I could get myself even to apply for unemployment insurance. I didn't want to see my 5-year-old have to eat grass. Still, I felt guilty doing it. I was shocked to find that TWI actually encourages people to live off of government benefits and medicaid. Quite a turnaround of events. To be clear, I am not criticizing those who for whatever reasons receive government assistance. I'm talking strictly about TWI's double-talk.