Broken Arrow

Here's a thought. How about just giving just because we're all part of this world instead of trying to actuate a formula to get "blessed"? How about giving because you believe in what someone else is doing instead of wondering if it's Biblical, or right or if you'll receive a blessing? Isn't giving money just in order to receive a blessing sort of selfish? So how about giving without looking for a result and just being thankful that you have something to give? A lot of people hold on to their finances for dear life to save up for a vacation or something while someone across town is freezing because they can't pay their electric bill. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with saving money for a vacation but I think we should always have a mind to contribute to those in need. There's no pat answer or set percentage. Do I think God is impressed because of my small act of giving? I don't think so. I'm fortunate to have a job. I went for a long time without one. I'm fortunate to have central heat. Personally, and this is just me I'm not saying others should follow in this vain, I think it's my responsibility to give. I don't have what little I have because of anything I've done or accomplished. I think I should share what I can to help others. I have the strength and mental capacity to make a living. Some don't and through no fault of their own (sorry republicans). I don't make a great deal of money by American standards. One of my favorite parts of the Bible is when Pilate tells Jesus he has the power of life or death over him. Jesus answers that Pilate has nothing that wasn't given to him by someone else. The same is true for me. I don't have a damn thing that wasn't given to me, neither does anyone else really. So I share. Is there a verse in the Bible that requires a Christian to give a certain set percent of his income to his church? No. Is there discussion and instruction on giving in Bible? I believe there is.

IMO opinion I still think he was show boating, trying to look holy. But that's just my take.

Hmm. Let's seen, I'll say freedom from fear. After session one I felt liberated from fear. I was thrilled to learn that I didn't have to live with fear. I had a nice "glowing" feeling leaving the class. Then again, it could have been the acid I took the night before. The glow lasted, oh, about 10 minutes into the next day when I had to face my real life. I wanted my glow back, so I went into leadership and found that to be really scary. So I went into the Way Corps to learn how to handle the anxiety associated with leadership better. That turned out to be really really scary as I soon learned that every wrong thing that would ever go wrong in a branch, limb, or country, would be my fault :(

Christmas is fun when there's little kids around. There's a few movies my wife and I save for the holidays and that's kind of neat. Sometimes I can find a concert somewhere. I like music from traditional orchestras and choirs and stuff like that.

Oh, I don't know. There was the time in PFAL where Wierwille went "Lo shanta...etc." We all considered that a display of the power of God. Then there were the times he would stand in front of the group, close his eyes and pronounce a benediction. It was always the same one. You know, "May the Lord make His face to shine upon you...." It certainly looked spiritual. Turns out it was a quote from the Book of Numbers but he never mentioned that.

I would make but one small insertion. I would say they were nothing more than a bunch of bully-wannabees. Adults who were secure in themselves weren't intimidated at all.

Letting people figure out for themselves what is best for them???!!! :o No way! That would be allowing for, for...freedom!

"And the crabgrass grows all around and around and the crabgrass grows all around".

I was in from 1974 to 1989. I attended a secular college, so I got exposure to what was going on in the world. It didn't matter, I was still stuck in Way world. For example, I didn't take any philosophy classes because I was afraid of being tainted by worldly thinking. I looked down my nose at the other students who weren't PFAL grads and I didn't enter in to a lot of relationships and activities because of my religious snobbery. At the time I played the trumpet and the college I went to was famous for its marching band. I never auditioned for the marching band because band camp was at the same time as the Rock of Ages every year. I considered enlisting in the Army ROTC program where I would have joined the Army as an officer upon graduation. I didn't do it because basic training was...at the same time as the Rock of Ages. After graduation I decided to enter the Way Corps. Why? Because I just couldn't get enough pain and suffering. My culture shock was a little different. It came when I discovered that, after all was said and done, everything I learned from TWI in terms of "spiritual development", "leadership training", and "living the more abundant life" was completely ineffectual for living life successfully in the real world. My training was even ineffectual for being in leadership with TWI. I was trained that I was better than an unbeliever, defined by TWI as a non-Way person. I was taught that as a Corps grad I was the "cream of the crop", the "best of the best". I was told that I was taught how to do things better than "the world". I was taught that "I could do all things", and that I should say in my heart,"Look out world! Here comes a Son of God!" And just by virtue of the fact of my association with TWI I was "the best". This haughty mindset is dysfunctional, and it just plain doesn't work. It takes time and discipline to be good at something. When I did not achieve instant success once I finally graduated from everything I was at a loss. My props didn't work. Of course, when you spend as much time and money in something as I did you don't want to face the fact that what you've been doing for the last 15 years has been a waste of time so you keep doing the same things over and over again and keep coming up with the same results. I finally woke up, thank God, but I believe I missed out on some things I could have accomplished had I embraced a more healthy way of viewing myself, God, and the world. The "blue book" did not help.

Doesn't the chorus contain the words, "Rock 'n Roll" as lyrics?

Um...no Corps grad certificate on the wall, and it never had any value in the first place. In the words of Lil' Abner, "I has spoken!"

FWIW, I'm really sorry you went through that.

I have no idea who any of those people mentioned are. Guess I'm incredibly out of step. I used to be hip. I did! I did!

My red flag is like Allan's. When I went to Emporia with the 6th Corps (I was College Division) and saw all the blatant adultery around and leadership doing absolutely nothing to call it out. It was never mentioned from the "pulpit". That was accentuated by H.E. Wierwille walking around with his hand on girl's butts, the girls were less than half his age. Then there was the time I spotted VP out in the back 40 in the dark of night embracing some young lady while his wife sat and watched from a golf cart. I figured he was "ministering". But, I hung around another 10 years. Go figure.

Great photographs! Kind of modern Norman Rockwell sort of thing.

I hear you. But history shows over and over again that when you give a person too much power, abuse happens. Barnard can be charming, and charismatic and he understands on some levels how to manipulate people to his own ends. I'm shocked that people not only let him have sex with their wives, but they allowed him to basically have their daughters as well. In effect, a child sacrifice. It's very very disturbing. How does it happen? The human psyche can be manipulated, especially if the person is removed from the larger society where other points of view are put forward. The broken patterns of thinking are reinforced by the group, and some more sound reasoning is discouraged, even abhorred by the group. If one is fully invested into the group, meaning one's sense of right-ness or okay-ness is wrapped up in the approval of the group, that person will capitulate to the group's desire which is driven by the leader. Having approval from the group and especially the leader becomes everything and being rejected by the group is the equivalent of being sent to Hell. In fact, losing the group's approval is just plain unacceptable. So an exchange takes place. The leader grants the individual their sense of dignity and worth and in exchange the individual gives the leader complete and total subjection, even worship. The leader manipulates the individual by dangling the persons approval before them and keep them in a constant state of fear. The individual will do anything. This obviously doesn't work on everyone. Those who do not tow the line are ostracized and eventually removed from the group. Even if the leader is exposed, the staunch group members will not acknowledge it as in the case where the young girl escaped from Barnard's compound (or whatever it was) and went to her parents. She told her mother she was being sexually abused and the mother's reaction was that of anger and insisted the girl go back. The girl, being only about 15 went back, she really had no choice. The mother could not face going against her source of value, her god if you will. Amazing, but it is an example of human falleness.

Because in VP's case, his death was due to the lack of believing of Board of Trustees and the rest of TWI. If I'm not mistaken, I think someone once said that the 14th Corp was reproved because Wierwille died on their watch.

Forgive my ignorance, but who's "the doc"?

Living with TWI's in-house doctor, huh?

I think it went something like, "After you've given 40 years of your life to the ministry maybe then you can______" Yeah, then if it was discovered you had some hidden talent, you got yelled at for not saying something sooner. You had to be a VP/LCM clone in order to be recognized as a leader. People that were soft spoken and actually encouraged people weren't taken seriously. In my case, I was scared to move when I was in the Corps. At that time getting yelled at was the worst thing that could happen to me. I got yelled at a lot growing up and yelling didn't encourage me, it scared me to death. Now, after having been sales for a number of years, I get yelled at all the time and I barely notice.

Sorry. The comment didn't really add anything to the discussion.

Really though, it's pretty much basic business that when you sell something, there is a maximum the public will pay until they decide the cost exceeds the benefits. Nowadays it's called the "tipping point". You can likewise lower a price and increase demand to where business is not impacted much anymore by a price decrease. A for profit business tries to find the maximum amount the public will bear while staying competitive within their respective enterprise. Should a religious organization have as its primary goal maximizing profits? When TWI raised the price to $200, they really tipped their hand as to what they were all about. But if profit was their goal, they were very foolish in the way they went about it. A sensible business, if that's what they wanted to be, wouldn't have been as extreme as to more than double the price, see it wasn't working out, then slash the price more than half. It just doesn't make sense. I don't think they knew what they were doing religiously or even as a business. But it gets deeper in my opinion. The problem was, it was thought, there were too many "copped-out grads". Now, the problem couldn't possibly be that the teaching of Wierwille was not enough to hold them. After all, it was believed, PFAL was the greatest teaching of God's Word since the first century. No the problem must be that the people signing up weren't committed enough from the start. The best way to increase commitment, it was thought, was to increase the price. Then, who would of thought, revenue decreases, panic sets in, and the price drops. No grand scheme, no consideration of long term affects, no research done, just a foolish, haphazard stab at fixing a problem. No logic, bad leadership all the way around and no thought out organization. That's who ran our leadership program known as the Way Corps. This was, indeed, an example of groupthink.

It was $200. I remember because I wasn't in the Corps yet and I went to the Rock and talked to our area leader who was Corps. He talked about how excited he was that the new price was $200. I thought the Corps was crazy. He went back for his final year I went back and signed no one up for the class. Then I went in residence. They announced they were going to change it to $40 a few months beforehand. Later we all got yelled at via phone hook up for not continuing to sign people at $200, even though we knew the price was going to drop more than one hundred dollars. Someone said VP was afraid that Christ could come back and some people that should have been in the class might have to go to Hell. I'm not sure if that 2nd part is true.

He was turning things over to "the keeds".

The litigiousness of the U.S. is fairly recent. But, yeah, back in the day the government wasn't as diligent about making sure you had insurance. Even now things can fall through the cracks, at least in Ohio. You can buy insurance against being hit by an uninsured motorist. There are penalties if you don't have at least liability insurance, but as they say, "You can't squeeze blood from a turnip". They can take your license away but if you're not inclined to obey the law, there's nothing to stop you from getting behind a wheel and smacking into someone else. You might go to jail for 30 days, you may get your credit trashed, but if you don't care about those things... Do you remember what year that was? By the way, I've been meaning to ask, what does "IIRC" mean?