Broken Arrow

The duet with father & son is too distorted.

I'm with you on your first point, that is, we're fighting against ourselves. What makes us think we're any better, or would be any better? As for myself, I think the only things that kept me from being a bully was that I was too small and slow. Hence, I was bullied. What's the difference between a person who is a bully at heart but lacks the opportunity, and a person who is a bully at heart and is able to live it out? They're both bullies at their core. I'm getting too philosophical here, I know...it's what I do best. As for your second point, why do you think you're "supposed" to be some kind of peacemaker? That's not your job, that's too much pressure. There ain't no peace treaty to be had with "whatever it is". You just live above it. That's what I hear, anyway, grasshopper.

It's sad, really, how these corporations get off track. One graduates from college and gets hired by a company. The grad is naive enough to believe that the new company they are working for is actually concerned about the product or service they supposidely produce. When one gets to the bottom of it all, it turns out that the main purpose of just about every organization is keeping the top manager's jobs intact. The product or service is merely incidental in fulfilling the ego needs of the top manager/owner. Want to get ahead? Make the boss look good. Do this in spite if whether it's good for the overall health of the organization or not. Eventually the company crumbles and blames it on foreign competition, or too much government regulation, or organized labor or whatever. The real problem is incompetent leadership. IMO General Motors is a stellar example of all this. Unfortunately the main casualties are the rank and file. Our friend "Sirguessalot" has it correct for when a visionary and skilled individual arrives on the scene and challenges the status quo, they are often hacked and let go. More than wanting the company to be successful, top managers do not want to admit they're wrong. With TWI it was moreso because Wierwille claimed that he received his biblical interpretations from God Himself. For him to be wrong even on one point would make him a liar and TWI a sham. Of course, both were the case. Naturally, Christian churches aren't like that...oh nooooo! (yeah right!)

Dat's Riiiiiight!

You see? This is where we get "stuck". You and I have been so indoctrinated with "show it to me in the Bible" that we fail (not necessarily you in particular) at times to think out of the box. I know of no place in the Bible where it gives clear instruction on the right-ness or wrong-ness of organizations. Jesus does say to go into all the world and make disciples. It appears to me that we get to work with him on how to most effectively do that in a given situation. That might include a organization. Leaders, I believe, are needed to run the organization, teach, lead by example and all the other wonderful things other posters have suggested in this thread. But they are not there to tell people how and what to think, or how to run their lives. Obviously there have been many organizations that have failed in that regard, hence the distrust. I agree with you when you say, "Modern Christianity places an inordinate amount of value on the organization-even placing the organization between the Christian and Christ" If you should decide to associate yourself with another religious organization, and I'm not saying you ever should, you have some advantages you can help others with. For one thing, you know not to believe that leaders are beyond reproach, they are not. You also know that leaders, all leaders, have selfish motives as do all human beings. What I look for in an organization is how people treat the leadership. Are they scared of him, or does he freely mill about with the rest of the "people" acting like a normal person? How much freedom is there to disagree with the leadership? What do the leaders concern themselves with? Are they concerned if I read the "wrong" book, or go to the "wrong" movie"? Will they comment if they think my wife is not "submissive"? Or do they just teach what they teach and the let the adult individuals figure out how to apply it? Finally, and most importantly to me anyway, is whether Jesus is glorified, or whether the talent, wisdom, humor, etc. of the Pastor is glorified. With what you and I have been through, it isn't hard to sniff out the show-offs. Rest assured, in every organization and within every man are flaws and selfishness. I apologize to any who might be offended by my using the all inclusive "he" when referring to leadership. I realize that leadership is not the exclusive domain of men however I find it cumbersome when writing to constantly be repeating "he or she".

Thanks Wolf! I guess I still don't think of the 'net automatically when I need something.

Yeah...what he said! Except I kept going and going and going and ended up in the Way Corps. It took awhile for me to see how wrong everything was. It took even longer for me to realize what a hypocrite, deceiver, and abuser VP was. I'm thankful for the women that came forth and were honest about their experiences with him. I think I'm past most of it now, not that I condone anything or have brought myself to the point of not caring anymore. I accept it for what it was in my life. The truth is, at least for me, was that I was looking for something to quell the terror and despair that was already in my heart. It was there long before The Way ever came along. The Way offered, in 12 easy steps, a way out. I was secure in The Way, I now had my family, and my friends and now it was clearly defined for me what made me an o.k. person, and what did not. So I focused on being a good Way guy. I bought the jacket, you know. A red one with a Way logo. I wore it like a badge of honor. No matter how hard I tried, the terror and despair never went away. I always thought it was my fault. Actually, it was my fault. I erred in thinking that pressing harder and harder into TWI would bring peace. It did not. I figured things weren't going well for me because I wasn't doing "the program" well enough. So I would do more, and more and more until after 15 years everything fell like a house of cards and it seemed that everything I strived for was nothing more than air. I'm not going to say that I'm thankful for the good I learned in TWI because I can't think of anything that was all that great. I did make and meet some good people that became friends for which I'm thankful. Everything else taught could have been obtained by reading the back of a cereal box quite frankly. Well, maybe not a cereal box. In reading this thread, I noticed some implying that if TWI had been what was advertised, things would have been glorious and wonderful. I don't see how it was possible that TWI could ever have been anything different than what it was. I believe it was rotten from the moment, the very instant, that VP got the idea to develop an independent ministry. In other words, TWI isn't an organization that simply "got off track". It was never on the track to begin with. "Had it been different", which is the title of this thread, TWI would not have been TWI.

"Too much mind." That fits too. Ham, you quoted this in an earlier post: Forward he cried from the rear and the front rank died And the General sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side Awesome quote! What is that from?

Organizations need leaders. Otherwise everyone would be constantly re-inventing the wheel and repeating the same mistakes. Also, people need experienced one's to show how to live something out vocationally whether that "something" be management, parenthood, or whatever. Leaders are needed in organizations in order to give direction, sometimes correct, reprimand, and perhaps even purge those who would take an organization in an undesired direction. Adults, including Christian adults, don't need leaders to make decisions for them regarding their personal lives. That is called freedom. A foreign concept to many.

Thanks Penworks!

Stats for what? Why zero through nine? How will you know if my intuition is "on the money"? If you know what it is, why are you asking for an answer? Confirm what? Most importantly..WHAT DO I WIN IF I'M CORRECT??? :)

Should the Bible, or any book for that matter, be understood through a grid of our own understanding? Is not the very purpose of reading to expand our thinking and reasoning beyond our own experiences, opinions, etc. To put it more simply, reading helps us to observe and interpret things from another's point of view. While it's okay to read and ask oneself questions, I don't think one is being true to the text if they only interpret a text in light of their own understanding, culture, experiences, etc. So what is one to do? I would say we all need to think as well as garner others' points of view. I'm sort of in a hurry right now so I apologize if my reasoning is circular.

Very very well said. It was a good class, really just a very basic class on the gospels as I recall. Nothing wrong with that. I figure LCM got rid of it because he didn't think the gospels applied to our administration. That's just conjecture on my part.

At one time Howard taught a course called Practical Management. They would do goal setting, time management and the like. I'm not sure he even graduated from high school, I could be wrong about that. There was also a class called "Leadership Principles of Jesus Christ". As I recall, though, that was mostly a course on the gospels.

Yeah, and you keep saying the whole thing was a waste of time. I mean, look at all these mundane skills you developed. Weren't you taught to keep your underwear drawer straight? That right there is worth the price of admission. I mean, a good leader has to have a neat underwear drawer, right? I bet the Apostle Peter could pull a pair of jockeys out of his drawer without even having to look. Now, as for me, my underwear drawer was fine. I had a 4-year college degree, and I learned how to screw in lightbulbs. I mean all different kinds like 40 watt, 60 watt and on up the line. By the time it was over, I had progressed all the way up to replacing flourescent bulbs. That really is leadership training because with TWI you needed to be adept at screwing over people if you wanted to be an effective leader.

Which I was completely fine with, by the way. But trying to pursue that goal was like joining the enemy as far as TWI leadership was concerned. One funny thing about pursuing a profession is that the employer actually expects you to SHOW UP FOR WORK! So, if you're Corps, a twig leader, and chose to pursue a profession, you were screamed at if you didn't make every single meeting that was called. That included Twig Leader meetings and trainings, W.O.W. Vet conferences, Advanced Class Grad conferences, Limb Meeting planning sessions and of course, there was always something going on locally. You'd better be at all those functions or you were a cop-out, something less than human, shunned by other "more spiritual" Corps Grads. Guys that washed windows and stuff, or that were paid staff. Oh, and you'd better be at every Corps Week and Rock. You needed to get a job that was flexible to give you all that stuff. That pretty much relegated you to being a McDonald's employee at the age of 28. If you said anything, you were lamblasted for lack of believing. C'mon! What about all that learning about "nature's little scrub brushes?"

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Similar to why they like to recruit in colleges. Military people tend to be young, more importantly, they are very mobile as they are often getting transferred from place to place. If you get them in TWI, hopefully they'll recruit others at other bases and so forth. Plus TWI may very well see it as an opportunity to affect the entire world since military are transferred about globally. Just thinkin'. Ah! So you're a know-it-all! "ba-dum boom, crash!" I'm just kidding I hope you know.

Columbus, GA has a military base, is there a major college there as well?

It's a huge college town, the home of the University of Michigan. If they can make inroads there, maybe that will pay off in terms of outreach since college students are so mobile.

I'm thinkin', which can be a dangerous thing, maybe there is a base of existing TWI believers in Georgia, same with Boise.

I think you're absolutely correct here. Anyone who follows TWI is without excuse. Maybe an exception is a brand new recruit who is trusting. Hey, good for you! Wish I could say the same but I bought the whole enchilada in the name of the Lord. Then I discovered it didn't work in real life.

Thanks DM! I very much enjoyed those picks!

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but under English law at that time a person was presumed guilty unless proven innocent. So Wordwolf is spot on when he says that accusing one of being a witch or werewolf required nothing factual, yet the accused were required to produce something factual if they were to prove their innocence. In cases such as these that would have been impossible. If you were accused of witchcraft and you didn't have friends in high places, you were a goner, man.