Broken Arrow

That's an annoying habit, I know.

"Lot of anger here". You continue to say this. Again, I don't want to guess at what I think your point is. You are also correct when you say that anyone who reaches adolesence has had sexual desire for someone for whom they cannot have an open relationship. That is not the point, though. While we may possess this desire at times, not everyone, even most people, act on these desires. That is, to force, coerce, or seduce someone else to participate with us in our fantasies. To garner someone's trust and have authority over them, and then use that trust and authority to manipulate them to do one's own bidding, even if the victim is willfully participating in the manipulation, is an offense of the highest degree. Nowhere does this offense play out worse than in sexual exploitation, especially if the victim is a child.

"Goodbye Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are!

People who say that haven't looked around and allowed themselves to be exposed to other material. They were discouraged from doing so. They were hurting creatures and when they heard something even remotely positive it was like a breath of fresh air to them. It felt good, so they closed themselves off from considering anything else, unless it was to mock someone else's ministry. Remember session 5, "Christ in You, Christ in you...etc."? My first time through PFAL I remember wondering why the grads were seemingly so excited. Someone said it was "The Great Mystery Revealed", that it was the first time in 2000 years that people were being taught this. I was taken back a bit, because I had been taught that very thing in the Methodist Church and I said so. I was told that I "still needed to grow and that one day I would understand." I bought that line, I was 17 years old. It wasn't too long afterwards that I, too, would be one of those "excited grads" claiming that this was all hidden since the first century.

Yes, there are jacka$$es in every walk of life. Sometimes I'm the even the personality in question. Then again, one person's jacka$$ in another person's saint. I think in Ecclesiastes somewhere it says, Be quick to listen, but don't listen too carefully, lest you hear your servant cursing you. Sometimes we have more in common with people we don't like than we care to admit.

I saw something on the History Channel a few weeks ago about this very topic. I don't recall everything but I believe they said it was along the lines of a slave woman who would perform healings with incantations, herbs etc. so she was accused of witchcraft. When she was captured, she started naming names of others. Most of the women accused were poor and "lower class" except for one. People were so frightened that they wouldn't even let these women speak in their own defense because, being witches, they might hypnotize the listeners with their voices. The one young woman who was not poor was able to defeat her charges but then later the court reversed its decision and executed her along with the others. Again, the second time around she was not allowed to speak on her own behalf. It was, in effect, a slaughter and very very sad. Many of the women were only teenagers.

I'll get off of my sarcastic binge for a moment and seriously try to explain. Have you heard builders discuss a structure, or perhaps construction of a ship? They'll talk about the integrity of the steel, meaning how strong it is. When determining how deep a submarine can dive they'll talk about how deep the vessel can go before the "integrity" of the hull is compromised. Wierwille taught that the Word (as he taught it) was infallible So, when V.P.talked about the "integrity of the Word being at stake", he was referring to how strong a person's "believing" was in The Word. I'm not saying he was right, mind you. I'm just defining what I always thought he meant. Wierwille believed what he taught was the Word and implied that his teachings themselves were "God-breathed". Therefore imo he was in fact teaching that the integrity of what he taught was always at stake. It was one of his main ploys at eliciting unquestioning loyalty. I just read Chockful's post and I think that is very well put; kind of what I'm trying to say. I really appreciate Groucho's "literal translation according to usage".

"Like" button pressed. Very good point!

I think I can assist with that. It's a more effective way for VP to say, "What I have to say is the most important thing for you to be listening to. Anyone who says anything different from what I say is not just merely wrong, they are at cross purposes with God Himself. Therefore do everything I say to the letter and pay no attention to anything else, not even what your parents tell you. Don't trust your own instincts, they have been conditioned by the Devil and I'm the only one on the face of the earth with a sound mind. And oh, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." There. Does that help?

No. TWI as well as the "name it and claim it" groups tried to use prayer that way. But prayer as taught in the Bible is not "an act to use supernatural means etc. Prayer is a request, not a demand as postulated by VPW. As if we can direct the hand of God Himself at our own whims.

The answer is...both.

I'm sure you're a great teacher and I assume by now you know I'm just clowning around.

I bet you're one of those math teachers that when a student asks a question you answer it by writing another problem on the blackboard and then go, "it's simple! if f(x)=a2 x the square root of a hyptenuse triangle, then it only makes sense that the ratio of a titrated blueberry muffin would be positively charged and stand alone in an inverted fraction whereof all the sides have no equillibrium." (omigosh! I think I just figured out how to make an atomic bomb!) It just says that's my opinion and that I think he's flawed in some areas. Someone else may think differently. I think he's a good read.

The Way is lost in the annals of history. Very few know who they were and even fewer know what they taught. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying The Way did anything good. I am saying they are barely a bleep on the radar screen. So, just because something is rarely remembered doesn't mean it wasn't evil and vice-versa. At least that appears to me what you are saying. I always think of Richard Burton whenever I try to picture Mark Antony. Isn't that a shame?

I've read the late Derek Prince and he has a lot to bring to the table. I would highly recommend reading his stuff. Sometimes he goes a little over the top imo. He can see demons and witchcraft everywhere if you know what I mean. I think that's an occupational hazard when you deal with the type of material he often deals with. Is witchcraft manipulation? I think so. Does that mean that everytime someone tries to manipulate someone else it's witchcraft? I don't think so. It's like anything else. Read what the man has to say and make up your own mind. As far as his teachings on prayer, it's great imo.

What?

PFAL-Pooping on others For A Living PFAL=Personally Fired Another Leader

When I was a first-year corpse on hee-hee-hah=hah relo, I had a leader with a high position take me under his wing for a day to show me the ropes. There were definitely goals at least at that level for ABS, PLAF, WOW and other stuff. When I graduated and ran a twig, I was never given such goals but was encouraged to have them. Then again, maybe that was when I was a moonie, or Hare Krishna. There've just been so many! You know...did any of us really want God to "spit in our face"? What a yukky metaphor.

The most valuable thing I learned from The Way International is the order and spelling of the books of the Bible. That's pretty much it. The most valuable thing I learned about myself due to my experience in The Way International was that I can be fooled. I didn't think I could be, and for that I'm embarrassed, but more humble. The most valuable thing I learned about people due to my experience in TWI is that very rarely, if ever, does anyone ever do anything for anybody that doesn't personally benefit them (parents and children excepted). That in and of itself is not a bad thing. It becomes evil when someone uses fake benevolence to manipulate someone else to worship at their alter. Being aware of that has kept me out of countless "sticky" situations. I did not have this type of consciousness while in TWI.

I always liked Mrs. Owens, she was a lot of fun. I never heard LCM talking about it being a celebration of when Herod massacred the children in Bethlehem. What a ridiculous statement. This business of not saying "Merry Christmas" was from Wierwille who said that "Christmas", was "Christ-mass", which was celebrating the death of Christ. Huh? Even then, in my brain-washed state, I felt we were "straining a gnat and swallowing a camel".

I like most of what's been suggested, but my choice would be "ExWay Vision"

Way Beyond, or, Beyond The Way.

I had a different experience than many. There never really was a time when I broke up with TWI, the whole thing just sort of faded away. I was involved in TWI from '74 to '89 when LCM sent out his "follow me or leave" letter. I attended Corps Week that year just to hear what he had to say. To me, his teaching on Galatians was nothing more than him juxtaposing himself into scripture. He was making correlations that were completely fabricated. Meanwhile others in the Corps were talking about how freeing it all was. I knew I was no longer going to fellowship under the flag of The Way International. As I was leaving I decided to stop off at the Fountain of Living Waters one last time. I always liked being by that fountain. So I spent some time there and then I left. I didn't come back for about 20 years. I live in Ohio and one day I was on my sales route and was close to HQ so I thought I'd drive by. I did not have the feelings of sentimentality that I thought I would; it was just buildings. When I say I never broke up with TWI, I mean that my belief system did not change for a very long time. I no longer took my orders from HQ, but I still attended an offshoot, I still believed VPW was the MOGFOT, I believed the BOT at the time were solely responsible for the demise of the ministry. I believed that if Wierwille were still living the whole thing would have stayed together. In fact, I believed that a major part of the ministry's demise was that the BOT failed to do what Wierwille taught. Of course I totally endorsed the doctrine of TWI. My life continued on. I was newly married and 29 years old with a baby girl. In spite of being "highly favored", and in spite of my "believing", I developed cancer. We all knew that cancer was a devil spirit. The reason the disease progressed as far as it did was because of my refusal to seek medical help, I didn't want to get it checked out. My "believing" wouldn't make it go away, so I went in for treatment and today I am clean. Still, my belief system took a major shot. My daughter continued to grow up, as babies do. I soon found that she didn't enthusiastically run to do everything I would tell her. Worse, I could not manipulate her to obey me. Gasp! I thought, "I can't control my family! A leader is supposed to control their family!" I was in sales and I found that most of the time people actually reject your offer. Some are downright rude about it. But I was a believer, I thought. Moreover, I was Corps. I should be leading my team every month. Worst of all, I developed financial problems. In other words, the processes in TWI that I adhered to for 15 years didn't work, so I became disappointed in everything. I became a very hard and cold person, not a good combination when one is married. To make a very long story short, I lost my marriage due to my hardness of heart that resulted in hurtful actions. THAT is when I guess one could say I broke up with TWI. I decided I knew nothing. Nothing about loving people, nothing about God. I went to a church where I didn't know anyone, laid my heart before God and tearfully confessed my own moral failures and hard-heartedness. It was hard going to church at first, especially small groups. I still adhered to the doctrine of TWI. I mean we all thought we knew The Word better than anyone since the First Century. I still had a reverence for VP. Those falsehoolds fell away over years. The stories I was hearing about VP's sexual exploits were bothering me. I read Kahler's book. I decided to come to GSC and find out what I could. I'm thankful there were many who were honest about their sexual rendezvous with Wierwille. Skedgell's book capped it for me. I just needed to know that stuff. Not because of some sick perversion on my part, but because Wierwille was so very lifted up in my eyes over the years. I had to face the fact that I had been duped. GSC also helped me to start thinking for myself and much of TWI's doctrine unraveled. Unlike many, I didn't lose a lot of friends. There was no confrontation when I left TWI or the offshoot. I didn't personally know many people in major leadership nor was I close to anyone on staff at HQ. As a matter of fact, though I'm from Ohio, I never particularly cared for HQ.

Great analogy, Zelotes!

Thank you...I was afraid it was going to be those dogs singing "Jingle Bells" again.