Broken Arrow

First, I don't think anybody is questionining VP's ability to grow a group. He was obviously very talented in that respect. If that were the criteria of judging someone's integrity, or whether God was behind that person's ministry, then the Mormons, Muslims, and Roman Catholics rank the highest of them all. Sorry, just couldn't keep my mouth shut. Anyway, were there really 20,000 at the '86 Rock?

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Skyrider, you said regarding the WC Bait......two years inresidence program to walk spiritually and lead others. I don't remember which one it was, but do you remember in one of those promo films VP says something to the effect that the Way Corps can bring a person into "full spiritual maturity" within 2 years? I'm talking about one of those Bud Morgan films, or maybe even that Way Corps film. I was a Corps grad when that came out and I remember thinking, "It will?" Then I wondered what exactly did "full spiritual maturity" mean, and how did one know when one had achieved it? Of course, I never shared that with anybody. I was "spiritually mature" enough to know to not question the "Man of God's" words. So, if I may add to your post... Bait......Full spiritual maturity in just 2 years. Switch....A program of busy work and empty talk about the "spiritually elite" Way Corps.

Ohhhhh, Sorry! Phew! I was getting ready to write a letter to the editor, too!

I hope you don't mind me taking a sharp left turn here, but the "Man Act"? I mean, there society goes again with its discrimination against men. Is there a corresponding "Woman Act"? No! It's the "Man Act", as if men are the only ones who have to have a law against their actions. This is an absolute artrocity!

Not my business really, but did it ever strike you as strange when you were in TWI that his other two daughters spent practically no time at all at HQ, and that you hardly heard much about them? Don didn't spend much time there either until he was brought on board.

Johniam, your logic defies reason. When someone with real or perceived power exercises or forces their will on someone weaker, it is abuse. I don't care how old they are. This would include police/citizen, boss/employee, teacher/student, pastor/counselee, parent/child and yes, husband/wife. In addition, you are arbitrarily choosing age of consent. The law says it's 18, you're taking the age down to being able to reproduce offspring. The pedophile does NOT see the adult the child will become, they see the child they want to consume with their own selfish lust. As with any addiction, one is never enough so he went from person to person. I believe the line is drawn even further back than we're making it here in this thread. ONE sexual encounter outside the bounds of marriage should have constituted his removal from office. The moment he bedded some woman who was not his spouse was the moment he disqualified himself from leadership. Many here may disagree with that, and that's your privilege. I think most if not all will agree with this next statement. Rather than come clean with his behavior, Wierwille engaged in cover-up after cover-up. He called it the "lock box". The real name is deception. Deceptive practices also were a reason for him to be removed from office. MOGFOT? I don't think so. VP seduced, raped, and drugged girls over 30 years his junior. Some of these girls were as young as 14. Yes, he did young children as did that teacher in your example. Johniam, what are you defending?

Please forgive my forwardness, we don't know each other well, but there is nothing "stupid" about your honest open heart, nor is your story "boring". He was the one who was screwed up, I'm sorry you got caught in his crossfire, but it was his issue, not yours. You had every reason to trust who you thought was your pastor. The onus was on him to conduct himself properly. Having failed that, the responsibility fell to the other adults who were around but they were self serving as well. You're right, he got off easy.

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Reference material. Waysider is our unofficial historian for things written and said prior to 1975.

Waysider, you bring up some interesting points. Womanizing isn't necessarily an attempt to hide homosexual tendencies. More often than not, men who womanize are insecure in their own masculinity. They falsely think that a sexual conquest will prove their manliness, mostly to themselves. It's a false belief and in reality doesn't work. So a man goes from woman to woman hoping to find what's missing and never being satisfied. It is also a hatred of the feminine because he is not really making love to a person, but to a false hope, a false fantasy. In reality he is making love to himself. Men who use pornography suffer the same neurosis except with porn a person can act out in the privacy of his own imagination without any risk of being rejected. Their are porn users who do not womanize with a real person, but I've never met a womanizer who doesn't have a strong bond with pornography. As far as Wierwille masking homosexual urges, who knows what rests in the thoughts and fantasies of an individual? Nevertheless, I don't think we have any evidence to support that he ever physically acted out homosexually with anyone. We have more than enough evidence to support him sexually molesting several women, many of them adolescents. LCM, on the other hand railed too much against homosexuality. As Shakespeare wrote, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much." (o.k., it's a little hokey but it gets my point across) I've often thought that maybe he was trying to mask, or suppress such urges. Again, I don't think we have any evidence to suggest he partook in homosexual sex. To me, however, his public expressions of homophobia leave some questions.

I agree that VP screwed men mentally and emotionally but I don't think it was worse than what he did with women. In fact, I'm concerned you might be marginalizing the trauma that women went through when sexually assaulted by by him. I also wouldn't list "screwing men's minds and screwing women's bodies" as "the same thing". Just my opinion.

Quote from Wordwolf: On another subject, what did this have to do with the thread's topic? See post #93.

Wow, a lot of anger in your post. The word is "misandry". From there you should find the derivations. Look it up again in your Webster's and Oxford, do a word search on the Internet, look it up in "Dictionary.com", look it up in Wikipedia. It's not a made up word.

Thanks CMAN, nice quote!

You might want to let your "professor" know that the corresponding English word meaning one who hates men is the word, "misandry". See below: World English Dictionary misandry (ˈmɪsəndrɪ) — n hatred of men Word Origin & History misandry 1946, from miso- "hatred" + andros "of man, male human being" (see anthropo-). Related: Misandrist You can verify this by looking in any credible dictionary. Obviously you neglected not to use one when you wrote that editoral. Nor did you use one prior to posting it here on GSC. I'm sorry, but you throw your credibility into question right in the first sentence. I find it hard to believe an actual professor would make such an obvious error, but stranger things have happened. It wasn't a "professor" from TWI was it?

Just FYI, not that it matters, I personally heard VP say, "I wish I were the man I know to be". It was during a Corps night at Emporia in 1981 for the 9th and 11th Way Corps. It was during a teaching on Ephesians 1:6. Actually it may have been 1980. Harve Platig and Pat Lynn put it to song, it was made past tense on his gravestone. For whatever that's worth. Now THAT'S funny!

Nah...he was grandstanding. "Let's all feel sorry for Vic and make him feel better. How impressive that our "Father in the Word", who knew more of the Word than anybody, was still so humble that he didn't feel he lived up to his full potential. (Sigh) What a Man of God he was!"

I don't think he is placing value on Nietzsche's musings. He's saying Nietzsche's philosophical ideas influenced the leadership of TWI. Reading Nietzsche is like handling nitro-glycerine. Read it if you must, but be very careful.

I studied a little, and I mean a little, bit of philosophy in college, so my opinions in this matter are not parroted from DWA or TWI. What you have posted as far as some of your personal views are in conflict with those of Nietzsche.

I'll take that round. Anyway, there are huge differences between Nietzsche, Freud, and Dostoevsky, especially Dostoevsky. Dostoevsky had a Christian worldview and made arguments on behalf of having faith in God. Nietzsche said that God is dead and we're all pretty familiar with Freud. Nietzsche was into survival of the fittest and National Socialisism (Nazi's) incorporated much of his philosophy. Nietzsche said that the weak weaken the strong and therefore a society. The weak, in Nietzsche's opinion, should be allowed to die if they could not sustain themselves. Society should not expend energy in helping the weak. I'm bringing this up because I think it's important to realize that much of what TWI did was influenced by Nietzsche, whether they realized it or not. LCM, in like fashion, said a lot of things that lined up with Nietzsche's way of thinking. Nietzsche, by the way, was the one who said, "That which does not kill us makes us stronger".