Broken Arrow

It's when you're so indoctrinated that there is no difference between VP's word and God's.

Even most of the Corps didn't see this stuff, and if we did, we either rationalized or denied it. I had no idea of his sexual activities. I thought perhaps there might be an isolated incident here and there, but not the systematic seduction and rape of young girls. No, I was convinced we had the Word as it hadn't been known since the first century and that we were doing the world a service by promoting classes etc. Keep in mind, most of us were kids under 25 years of age.

But in TWI there was no emphasis on overcoming sinful behavior. It was more along the lines of putting it behind you. In order to be victorious against it, that is, to quit doing it, one has to realize the depravity of their behavior. Then from a heart of true repentance turn to the Father. You're right, there comes a time when one has to be honest and realize when it's time to move on. Otherwise one turns to self-flagellation (sp?). Everything in balance. In my 15 years in TWI I can't count the number of times I've had someone commit an offense against me and then have a very lackadaisical attitude when I confronted them. Not that I ever did the same to others...no, not me. I hold that we weren't instructed along those lines because VP himself did not want to be held accountable for his own actions.

Don't you think that fear of death is something that is common to all humankind? I believe that fear of death is the genesis of all sorts of philosophies, behaviors, and religions. I believe at the root of all compulsions is the fear of death. Just an opinion. I would like to hear yours if you have the time.

"Oh yes! I learned sooooo much about God today! I was digging a ditch for Dr. Wierwille to irrigate his lawn when my shovel struck something. I figured it was a rock so I kept smacking it with my shovel. Eventually I dug under it when I heard a hiss and smelled a peculiar odor. I thought 'what could be making such a noise and smell?' so I lit my lighter to get a better look. It turns out I had dug through a gas line! Haha! Within seconds, the entire courtyard exploded! I quickly thought of the Book of Revelation and how things on this earth are going to explode and catch on fire when the believers are gathered. As many of my brothers and sisters were being rushed to the hospital, I thought about how one person, just one person, could affect the lives of so many! I saw my life so much bigger. Even though I no longer have the use of my right arm, in fact, I have no right arm, Haha! I'm soooo thankful that God privileged me with learning this great truth from His wonderful matchless Word, all from working on that ditch. I'm much more blessed now than ever! Sorry about your house, your barn, and the BRC, but I'm believing that God will fix it all. He always supplies you know, Haha!" God bless! You are the best! Haha!

Workman, you have me quoted as saying, "Broken Arrow: "Ha cha-cha-cha-cha!". I have been involved in a group similar to SAA for about 15 years, and my wife is a victim of childhood sexual abuse. Of all the things I could be quoted as saying somehow this blurb makes it into your post. A lot of my time is spent helping those who are trapped in sexual addiction themselves. I have personally struggled through some personal issues of which I will spare you. Perhaps I'm overreacting, but this quote taken completely out of context makes it look as if I'm deriving some sort of perverted sexual pleasure from all of this. I just want clear the record here. That "Ha cha...." quote was a caption I put under a picture of Jimmy Durante I posted. I can't remember why I posted his picture but I do those sorts of things from time to time. I DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT think any of this is a joke, nor do I think it's funny. To the contrary it tears my heart out. BTW, I rather appreciated the rest of your post.

Actually, I think you're giving the Corps program way too much credit in that they didn't serve anything, not even milk. No, the Way Corps was simply a program wherein its participants spent almost all of their time engaging in worthless busy work that resulted in nothing whatsoever. Yet TWI leadership lauded the program to the rank and file as THE path to spiritual maturity. That kept people coming in the program. Again, as you say, only an illusion.

Personally no, not at this point. I wouldn't even be surprised. I think it's because I've been out from under his "ministry" for so long. The stuff I believe today isn't a result of TWI teaching. Tongues to me isn't a crucial doctrine. If I get to the end of the line and find out I'm wrong about my belief in tongues, I'll just go, "oops!" My speaking in tongues and my belief therein doesn't really infringe on other people unless I do it their front room when they're trying to sleep or something. My feeling of betrayal came when the realities of his sexual exploits came to light.

Thank you. I think you've given me enough to get started, I'll check it out.

Cool story!

You are stereotyping. Not all Pentacostals conducted or conduct themselves this way. You're implying that SIT wasn't "normalized" until VP. That's just not true. I'm not neccessarily hailing the Pentsies. I'm just saying there were others prior to the Wierwille who taught and believed in speaking in tongues. Doubtless there is some confusion in the ranks. Not so much today as there was, say, 40 years ago. If I'm not mistaken, I think Oral Roberts wrote a book on speaking in tongues in 1968. I think it was called, The Holy Spirit and You. So, no, VP wasn't a pioneer. Oral might have been a pioneer, but I'm not so sure about that either.

Speaking in tongues has not been replaced by creeds and nonbiblical doctrines. What does that even mean? It sounds like a real educated statement, though. It is also a misnomer that the Gospel of Christ went to "Hell in a handbasket" after the First Century Church. There have been great men and women who took real stands for the true God in later years all through history. Unfortunately you don't get much help from the historians and many churches spout the same drivel without really knowing the facts. By the way, what is wrong with a creed? TWI would lead you to think that no one really walked with God outside of people in TWI or the First Century Church. Nonsense.

I don't agree. I don't think the text supports that tongues is (or was) THE proof of someone being a Christian. I believe that people looked for "fruit" and confession (what a person talks about). Tongues may have been part of it too, I dunno. The 5 examples in PFAL simply show that speaking in tongues was practiced in Bible times. I always thought that's what he was going for in that section of the class. If I remember correctly, I don't think those examples are very strong arguments for SIT anyway.

Okay, you make a good point here. I was thinking more about that if things didn't happen in a certain way, it was often considered "off", or even "devilish" in TWI. Case in point: A person came to a twig one time who liked to say "amen", and, "Uh huh", a lot during the teaching. He also said other things like, "Preach it! Preach it!" We thought the guy was possessed and discouraged him from doing this. I find out decades later this type of behavior is fairly common in certain churches. Others raise their hands while praying. So? Anything wrong with raising one's hands?

We don't necessarily have the fruit of the spirit by being born again. You already know that. I hope you know that fruit of the spirit is a whole lot more than being the type of Christian that others would want to be like and be around. If I don't have to quote Gal. 5:22, 23 because you already know it describes quite plainly what the fruit of the spirit is. I will however quote verses 24-26, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited...." We have Christ, we walk with Christ, we chose Christ for two reasons. One is to have eternal life and the other is to overcome sin. If someone has a problem with that and thinks these words are "too religious", or burdensome, then that person has a problem with Gal. 5:24-26.

By the way, didn't Wierwille have a doctorate in Homiletics? Granted, it was from a "degree mill", but didn't he have a bonified degree? I realize that he allowed everyone to think his degree was in theology. What are you talking about? People betray Jesus all the time. Oh, that's right, VP taught that Christ is "absent". Now there's a scintillating truth.

Johniam, you said, "VP was a pioneer. He made SIT easy, practical, harmless. You should be asking why the devil still tries to do so much to queer SIT." Personally I think the limitations of western thinking as well as the age of enlightenment makes it hard for westerners to grasp something like speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts (Yeah, I said gifts). I don't think the fact Wierwille taught S.I.T. is any indication of him being a "pioneer" as you say. You said yourself, the Pentacostalists had been speaking in tongues for years. Maybe it wasn't part of the mainstream (whatever that is), but it certainly wasn't new. The Charismatics were also practicing speaking in tongues around that same time period that TWI was in its "growth spurt". Wierwille actually did this important aspect of Christianity an injustice in that he endeavored to put restrictions on the movement of the Spirit. Like everything else, he had to control it. I don't think he was accurate on his teaching of interpretation of tongues or prophecy, but that's just me.

Waysider, you cite a University of Pennsylvania study of which there were only 5 participants and you point to that as proof that speaking in tongues isn't authentic. 5 participants is not a large enough study group for one to draw conclusions, we've discussed this before. Even 100 people isn't a large enough study group. You need about 1000 or more for your results to be conclusive. What else do you have besides that study?

Is it really rumored that LCM is working for Victoria's Secret?

Waysider and others have been posting in various forums for years, including the Political Forum. It's not as if no one has had anything to say until you or I came along and brightened up their otherwise mundane lives. You can simply look at some of the other threads and find some rather, let's say, "spirited" discussions. What might strike you as odd is that neither you or I have any posted comments. Why? Because we weren't present. I understand you were a regular awhile back. Nevertheless, life goes on with or without us. So, be at peace. No one is chasing you from forum to forum. People were posting stuff regardless of whether you or I were there to share our great wisdom, and they'll continue to do so if we stop. That is, until Paw pulls the plug.

I think that exists as well.

Sometimes he didn't even have to do that from what I've heard.

I'm not the subject in question, but in MY defense I would say, "Please don't shake up that bottle and point it at me!" It's amazing what becomes truly important when the pressure is on.

Heh, Calavicci. I'm the one who snapped that pic you posted. I guess it went viral after I uploaded it to Wikipedia a while back. FWIW, here's "the whole thing," with others including Mrs., Rhoda, a "staffer," and various eleventh corpuscles in view. Interesting thread, y'all. I can't believe I read the whole thing. *burp* Wouldn't you know? Just when I get around to feeling like posting here the place is closing down. *burp* 'Scuse me. I've lurked GS on and off for years, but this is the first thread I've seen where VP is accused of child molestation, (brainfixed on page 2). Where did that come from? Dang. BTW, here's a pic of Jack. You're right, he looked much better! I wasn't even aware they snapped this picture when I jumped up on a boulder to determine where I was. How embarrassing. I look much different now.