Broken Arrow

TWI gave the standard cop-out...The Book of Hebrews wasn't written directly to The Church, it was written for our learning. That makes no sense either. Also, all those guys lived prior to Christ's ascension and the pouring out of the gift of holy spirit had not happened. Today's believers can walk in greater power. I'm not saying for one second I believe any of that, I'm just giving you the TWI response. So if your question is what do we do with everything we were taught about Hebrews, we throw it in the garbage along with just about everything else we were taught from that group. If you are wondering how we really are supposed to view the book of Hebrews, well, that's another thread.

Even in TWI though, one's name was lauded to the skies if they were a professional with any sort of accomplishment. We had a federal judge that was allowed to speak at the Rock, a Psychiatrist, a medical doctor, 2 starting NFL football players, a professional women's tennis player, a "bullfighter", fashion model, and several broadway actresses. That is not to mention the professional musicians that funneled through TWI over the years. I was in the Corps. Some of us used to muse that if any of these folks had been in TWI while they were in training for their respective professions, they would have been discouraged from doing so. They would have taken too much time away from The Word. I think maybe the medical doctor took the class while he was in med school.

Reading such articles is both enlightening and frightening. So many, practically everyone is seduced by power. What makes me think I would be any different if I had it? If I had the resources and opportunity, I like to think I would behave equitable and compassionate, but I don't know. Society loves it when one of the powerful falls. We shake our heads and wag our fingers when in reality we may want to take stock of our own choices and reactions. How do we treat those who are weaker, like the elderly, the poor, the sick, or the single pregnant woman who can't speak English? Why do you think that policy was adopted in the first place? Someone, probably several, before you abused their power and students paid the price, I would guess. So you see, what you are saying relates very much to this topic imo.

I've given some more thought to this and I've changed my mind. I'm no longer unsure, I'm convinced that I would have been better off had I not associated with TWI. My situation is a little different from most in that my entire family was involved in TWI as were my in-laws. So I never cut off any family members. Nevertheless, there were other things I missed out on, and my growth was stunted mentally and emotionally in other ways. I'm glad I got out while my daughter was still an infant. I can't imagine how things would have been if she grew into adolescence while we were doing the Way thing.

Right Geisha, not to mention the heros of the faith listed in Hebrews 11.

A man after my own heart.

I'd see those bodyguards and think, "I wonder how good they really are." Now, I happen to be a peace-loving, law-abiding citizen (at least up to this point) so I dismissed such thoughts as foolish. However, some people aren't quite so stable. That, and back in those days I only weighed about 130 pounds and had the strength of a clothes hanger. Wierwille himself could have taken me out. As far as the bodyguard that you said, "stood his ground", did he say something back to VP at the time?

Besides not being biblical, it is also a slap in the face for those who were killed because of their faith, including some people noted in the Bible itself. VP taught that they died because of their lack of believing; how arrogant! I'm all for having a positive attitude. All things remaining equal, it's better than having a negative one. But this belief that we are somehow superhuman with the power to direct the Will of God Himself, that is ridiculous. This belief also makes it more difficult to relate to God personally. It is no longer necessary to converse with God and struggle with Him since He will do whatever we ask as long as we believe properly. In fact, depending on who was talking, actually conversing with God about something could also be a sign for lack of believing. What a damaging doctrine!

You look more important when you have an entourage, especially if that entourage is armed. He would be driven around at ROA accompanied by some guys who looked like Secret Service agents. People (including me) would go "Whoa! This is one important dude. I remember sitting at a Rock one time somewhat close to the main stage. A guard sat at each side of the stage where there were stairs leading up to the platform. Each guard wore a dark suit, dark glasses, ear pieces that I supposed were attached to radios. I figured they had guns as well. Even in my brainwashed state I thought of how ridiculous those guys looked and inside I went "Oh, come on!" Then I thought of how much fun it would be to yell, "AAAuugh...!!" and charge the main stage just for the fun of it. Hey, it would have given people something to talk about. I figured VP and Doug M. may not see the humor in it so I chose to just sit there.

Thanks T-Bone...that makes a lot of sense!

Don't forget about the ammo dump at the EOB.

He probably had the original idea for it but it never went anywhere because YOU didn't see it big enough!

Hmmm...how interesting.

You have all heard, haven't you, that Wierwille claimed that he was the one who originally had the idea for fast food restaurants? The story is that he shared "the revelation" with some Christian businessmen who didn't have the "believing" to see it through. Then, once it was known in the senses world, the devil took the idea and gave it to one of his men. I personally didn't hear Wierwille himself say this. I did hear Martindale say it though in 1975 at Emporia. I mean, think of how this story must have come about. Can't you just see Wierwille sitting around a fire at a night owl one night, after having downed a fifth of drambuie, someone's talking about how blessed they were to pull weeds in 95-degree weather and how doing so helped them see the greatness of The Book of Ephesians when suddenly Wierwille blurts out, "Yep! I was the first one to think of fast food! Couldn't say anything until now because no one could handle it (hic-cup)!" I realize this is off-topic, I was just inspired by the talk about the "snow climbing machine".

I think about that stuff sometimes too. But then I also wonder, would I have just joined another cult that was maybe even worse? I had also begun experimenting with illegal drugs, hard stuff. Fortunately I hadn't fully walked down that path. Would I have turned to the drug culture? I frequently considered suicide, would I even be alive today? I was also starting to lean in to some sexually deviant behavior though I had yet to participate. Looking back I think it was a matter of time. AIDS was around in the 70's, we just didn't know it yet. So again, would I still be alive and if I was, what type of person would I be? It's ironic for me. I now know full well of the sexual deviancy at the top levels of TWI. At the time, as a kid, my perception was that full sexual expression was to be in the context of a marriage between a man and a woman. So I went for that, not that I held to that standard perfectly. So for me, my involvement in TWI kept me out of a lot of stuff. However, true emotional and sexual healing came after I left TWI. By then I was an adult, and there was a lot more help available than in the mid-70's. So, I know what you're saying Skyrider, and I agree. But would I still have figured out another way to screw up my life? I don't know, probably. But that's just me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pining on the ground, weeping, and thankful for the ministry of VPW. I'm just saying that I think I was a cult member waiting to happen. But that's just me. I do not have fond memories of my stint in TWI, but things could have been a lot worse. For whatever that's worth. Obviously, I'm still confused even over 20 years after leaving!

Quillen stuck around until POP I believe. You make it sound like he got mad at VP and "split". I didn't know Race left, of course they wouldn't make that public unless they had to. If the TWI lawyer you're talking about was Shirley then according to POP he was trying to run a scam and got caught by our Savior CG. Did CG make that up, maybe? Another TWI lawyer moved to a warmer climate and lived happily ever after...probably with a real law firm. I dunno, he seemed happy. Possibly because he more than likely quintupled (5x) his salary. They were around for like 5 or 6 years weren't they?

True indeed.

That's really cool, Skyrider!

Wordwolf said in post #260, "You keep depicting this like vpw was going about his business, and discovered Ellen in his office trying to feel HIM up." ("Ellen", of course, is hypothetical). I would add that even if he HAD found "Ellen" in his office, sexual misconduct would have STILL been a sin on his part constituting instant removal from a position of leadership. With all due respect, I would suggest that this particular scenario started by Johniam is completely and totally irrelevant. Wordwolf also discusses how Billy Graham resisted temptation. Just to add more insight, Graham mentions in one of his writings that before he would go into his hotel room to retire for the evening, he would have one of his assistants scout out his room to make sure there was no one lurking for him. He took this issue very very seriously.

I knew it! There were no "umps" in the original!

You lost me there a little, Skyrider. What do you mean when you say, "Wierwille and Co. were not anywhere near the top of the food chain"?

My my T-Bone! Tell us how you really feel! What a great post! I especially liked your line about "throwing a wrench into a dusty little-used contraption a.k.a your brain." My only contention is where you question if TWI were run by more of a democratic process. Truly, if TWI ran the way they said it should, which is where individual fellowships are self-propogating and self-supporting, it would have been a different world indeed. In other words, TWI would assume an advisory capacity only and support the local areas with research materials, mediation, maybe leadership training, and the like. Each fellowship was supposed to govern itself. There was a much deeper problem, though, and it was that TWI was rotten to the core and its leadership had evil intentions. There is no way the type of organization I just described could have existed within The Way International. That was because the organization was about promoting a man and his ego and not about spreading the gospel. VP dismantled any organization that actually began operating in this fashion. I'm referring to The Way West and The Way East. Wierwille wanted the money and the recognition coming to Headquarters and not to the local areas. That way he could wish he were the man he knew to be on a national stage. Had the local areas taken center stage as the Way claimed they should in the class called "The Way Tree", other men would have gained prominence and V.P. would have been just another teacher of the Bible. Not the Man of God for our day and out time. TWI was a virus at its point of inception and was incapable of producing anything but poison.

I think you make an excellent point. I don't think we're supposed to think or ponder about whether one person has a "gift ministry" or if another is a prophet etc. The point is, we're being ministered to by God. The person acting as minister is simply a vessel (oooh someone's not going to like my choice of words!) through which God brings about His Will. One of my favorite passages (that I'm too lazy to go look up right now) is where Pilate tells Jesus that he holds the power of life or death over him. Jesus' reply, and he doesn't say much, is that Pilate didn't receive anything that wasn't conferred on him by someone else. In other words, none of us have any power in and of ourselves. People like Wierwille forgot that, or never knew it in the first place.

IMO, The Way became worse. Actually, maybe it was always worse, we just didn't notice until later when we began to have families. However, I think the "Jesus Revolution" had a positive affect on the church at large. Today you have Christian counselors and churches that at least attempt to address people's real issues. Topics that would have been taboo in the 60's are discussed from the pulpits, like sex and sexuality. You could hardly say the word in a church in the 60's or 70's. Some of the former "Jesus People" are pastoring some of these churches. Skyrider said, "Oh, how different everything was back in the late 60s and early 70s......the Jesus movement, the music, woodstock, the counter-revolution, the day the music died. The clashing of a cultural change was in the making." True, but TWI had nothing to do with this. He only rode the wave. One thing that I think appealed to so many at that time was the idea of meeting in the home. Again, not an original TWI idea but one they leveraged to appeal to a group looking for answers outside the church's traditional structure. No one was meeting in the home at that time, at least not in the United States.

Did it change the world? No. PFAL was droplet in an ocean. Did it change me? I've actually thought about this. I was 17, really 16 when I got involved and I was 32 when I got out. I was a high school student when I got in, I was a college graduate with a family when I got out. Did I change during that time? Of course I did. I think PFAL was a hinderance to my personal growth. It actually took me on a detour away from developing my own personal talents and skills. Moreover, I stopped contemplating the things of God on my own. Anything outside of TWI doctrine was thrown out as irrelevant in my mind. I'm sure there was something of value that I learned, but darned if I can think of what it would be. Another thing I would like to mention is that things for me didn't get really bad until I entered The Way Corps. That's when the indoctrination really began. Up until that time I was a faithful attender, but I still had a life. I hear that changed as well after my departure. I have very few good memories of being involved with the WC. I can't think of one right now. I made some good friends, but that's about it.