Broken Arrow

I'm not a V.P. defender, but in my recollection V.P. said that no translation was the inerrant Word of God. He said the Word of God as it was originally given is inerrant. Of course, he considered himself to be the authority as to how the Word was originally given. So the Fundamentalists don't state the Bible to which they are referring because they don't deem any of them completely accurate.

Pen I'm just curious, have you ever read any works from F.F. Bruce, or Karl Barth? Specifically, Bruce's book entitled (I think) The Books and the Parchments? Did I already ask you this before?

Thank you Ms. Garden! I didn't mean to make you feel sad! :( How about, "In God We Trust, all others pay cash."?

Maybe you're a "Pollyanna", maybe I'm a cynic, or a "Puddleglum" as my wife sometimes calls me. Yes. I believe if left unchecked, people will abuse others intentionally, or unintentionally. Someone said, "The best of men are men at best". Then, of course, there's the familiar saying, "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even people, in my opinion, who commit their entire lives to alleviating the suffering of others can fall prey to this. All they have to do is set up an organization and have at least one other person involved. Soon there will be disagreement on how things should operate and there we go. We humanoids are full of both evil as well as righteous desires. Perhaps I should define abuse. I'm not necessarily talking about sexual molestation or stealing. . I am talking about when someone uses someone else for their own selfish benefit. It might be as simple as letting someone work themselves silly on our behalf to make us look good and deep inside we know they need a break. Does this mean there are no good organizations out there? No, I don't believe that. I'm not writing this to be depressing or hopeless. I think it's freeing to realize that every single one of us has an achilles heal. With that knowledge, we can have understanding and maybe even show mercy to someone who stumbles. With this knowledge perhaps we can help each other from getting in over our own heads and becoming corrupt. This knowledge keeps us honest with ourselves as well. We know we can be deceived, so we're not insecure when confronted. Yes, there's a "little Hitler" that lives in each one of us. I think a healthy organization knows this and should establish safeguards. I've seen where organizations resist such transparency and come back with something like, "Don't you trust us? Do you really think I would...." No. I don't trust anyone with a completely free reign. Man in his current state cannot handle unbridled authority. As for an organization that refuses to examine itself, and who refuses to let others examine them, avoid it because they are lying. People who won't share things because others "can't handle it", are hiding something, guarantee it.

I talk a good talk here but this is a tough area for me. I learned unquestioning obedience at the feet of TWI. That translates well in the workplace, too well. Many employers gladly hire doormats and treat them accordingly and that's what I've been for so long. I just can't play that role anymore and I'm afraid I've swung too much the other direction. I've just seen so much abuse and can smell it a mile away. I find myself unemployed right now because of my mouth, but hey, I still have my principals! (I'm being sarcastic) I get angry at such little things like company officers having their own special parking places. As if their time is more important that everyone else's. I get angry when I sense high ranking officials desire that I get nervous when they come in and that I "snap to!" Or act like I'm such an impingement on their time when I have a question or whatever. I've got to figure out a way to get past this because it seems every organization wants their pecking order and get angry when it's not adhered to. While God may see us all equally, employers don't. I hate that. An of course, sexual abuse can be rampant at the workplace. I hear a lot of stories of women having their jobs threatened if they did not comply with the "wishes" of their superior. Kind of a hard place to be in if one is a single mom. Uggh! The egotism of some people! These same people who are used to receiving worship come into my workplace and expect cow-towing from me and I don't play. Anyway, I needed to get that off my chest. Sorry for the derail.

Actually, I think I'm the one that misunderstood :) . I think I understand what Skyrider is saying and I think he's right. Here's an axiom I believe: Any organization that is overseen by men becomes abusive. This is regardless of how well intended the group may be. The question isn't whether a group is abusive. The question is how bad is it. (That is not a quote but I got the original idea from a man named Ken Blue in is book, Spiritual Abuse). Case in point: A few years ago we had a major scandal within a charitable organization called The United Way. One of the officers was embezzeling. We had a similar situation happen within the local chapter of the American Cancer Society. You can't get any more well intentioned than that. Yet, trusted people became crooked. So I agree with Skyrider, one should not put their unfailing blind trust in any organization. The truth is we need each other. The truth also is none of us can be trusted. So what's the answer? I have a couple of ideas. First of all, how open is the organization to dissenting opinions? How is the organization run? Is it run by just one person? To whom, if anyone, do they hold themselves accountable? What are my boundaries? How much will I put up with? If my standard is perfection then I'm going to have a difficult road to hoe. I do not agree with those who say that once we have given our money to an organization, then it's none of our business how they spend it. That organization has an obligation to disclose their inner workings. Personally, I would avoid any organization that purports their leadership is beyond reproach. Some churches, if there is sexual impropriety on the part of one of their leaders will cover it up. Other churches will make their congregations aware. So, maybe some think they'll handle this by avoiding participation in any group at all. An understandable yet impossible way to live. Do you have a job? Is it with an organization? I've been hard put to find any company that is completely honest. Are you self employed? Do you have human beings as clients? One should not be fearful of being involved in an organization as long as that person remains informed and realizes human weakness...to a point. Perhaps that what Jesus was saying when he said to be "wise as serpents yet harmless as doves."

There's a difference, though, Geisha. The groups you mentioned are engaged in doing a particular work and they ask for financial support to carry on their business. They don't come along with an entire agenda and demand you follow it in order to be an approved follower. No one's going to come around and get in your face about, for example, how you raise your children, etc. You might be an exception, but I don't think most who give to World Vision, or Voice of the Martyrs even know who is in charge. They just support the work.

I appreciate you sentiment. Just to be clear, and I'm not saying you said this, my marriage did not fail as a result of me going to a "Jesus" church. It had already fallen apart and I turned to Christ. Thank you, Geisha, and thank you for your testimony.

How about two out of three?

No argument from me on that. Still, healthy boundaries are something that can be had now.

That's true, Johniam. That's not why I'm no longer with TWI. My point in saying all that I said a few days ago is that when faced with a real problem, I needed a relationship with a loving Father. Quoting Bible verses, focusing on what I wanted, then shooting the picture, determining what was available, how to receive it, what to do with it after I got it etc., knowing to whom the Bible was addressed, the fact that 4 were crucified with Jesus, were of no value. Neither was being smug in knowing that I knew the rightly divided Word, and that I was a graduate of The Way Corps etc. all were hollow. Being led to the one who carried my sin, crying like a baby while I repented of my sin, and then receiving his acceptance and true love were what delivered me. I did not know this Jesus while in The Way International. Moreover, this type of relating was frowned upon in TWI. TWI would say to "forget the past", "stand up staight and know you're a son of God". "Claim your sonship rights", "Ask forgiveness and move on". Some would even say I was practicing idolatry. That's why I am no longer with TWI. When faced with a soul defeating sin, it takes more than just claiming sonship rights and moving on. It takes recognition in knowing there is something broken within, and then realizing that one's only hope for overcoming this lies in the risen Christ. This same Christ will never leave or forsake us. Much bigger than "receive, retain, release". To reiterate, TWI reduced God from a loving Father to a principle to be applied.

I hear that a lot on this website. Let's hope we don't get led into another tyrannical system. If I may, I would suggest that it's important to realize how we get pulled into such a damaging organization. What started our descent into TWI? I think it's because all of us have a need for relationship by virtue of the fact we're human. That is not a bad thing, it's a normal thing. The need for relationship is so strong that we'll sometimes do goofy things to get it. The problem is not that we desire a full, deep, mutually satisfying relationship with someone else. The problem for some of us is that we failed to establish strong, healthy boundaries. Perhaps those boundaries were never modeled for us, or perhaps some of us were so hungry for relationship that we allowed our healthy boundaries to be breached. Without healthy relating, and without relational boundaries, the only way to protect ourselves from being hurt again is to withdraw from any sort of relationshp. In doing so, we cut ourselves off from what brings us true satisfaction and a sense of belonging. That is because humans are wired for relationship. Cutting ourselves off from others is a broken, miserable existence. Yet, a lot of choose that over what we've been through. True, we may stay out of a toxic relationship, but we do so at the expense of any relationship at all. I said all that to say I believe focusing on establishing healthier boundaries will serve us better.

This is likely true. Back in the 40's, woman in nurse's training had to live in dormitories and keep particular hours. They were not permitted to marry while in training. I'm not sure why, but I believe the thinking was if the woman married, she would go off with her husband and not complete the training. Why they thought that, or even cared, I don't know. Certainly it was a discriminative law, but times were a lot different in the 40's. I know this because my in-laws did the same thing. They were married "incognito" so she wouldn't be kicked out of nurse's training. The joke was that nowadays a couple will typically live together for a year or two before they get married. But my in-laws got married before they could live together. I didn't say it was a funny joke. <_<

It wouldn't be mean-spirited of Bill Gaither to do that. First of all, it was a slap in the face to use one of his songs without permission. It was, in fact stealing. That's why there are copyright laws. Also, he feels as strong about his doctrinal beliefs as does TWI, so he would believe he was defending. Plus, of course, a lot of people believed then as they do know that TWI was a cult. He probably didn't want to have any of his songs associated with that.

Whatever happened to her? Anybody know?

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You know, this keeps getting more and more complicated. First Pluto is no longer a planet, now the moon is a planet, or is it a dwarf planet? And another thing, was does Mickey Mouses' dog, Pluto, not have any clothes and Goofy does? Arent they both dogs? How come Goofy can talk and Pluto can't. This has been bothering me since the age of six.

Sorry...kind of a yucky post in reflection. Wish I could delete a lot of things I've said over the years. Only here on Greasespot is this possible!

John Lennon looks like Father Guido Sarducci.

Okay, now look. I think I may have started a monster here. Someone questioned why TWI changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful" to "How Firm a Foundation". I responded that I didn't think TWI changed the words, that someone else did that. Then in passing I mentioned that back in the day it was fairly common to put different words to a familiar tune. I was trying to explain why someone else may have appeared to have changed the words to "O Come All Ye Faithful". I don't think I communicated this very well because I think many thought I was excusing TWI for changing the words to songs without giving credit. I was not, at least I didn't intend to. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Who is Sherrie?

Now, THAT'S funny! Hey! You don't renew your mind to a wrong misnomer, you renew your mind to the Word, the Word, and nothing by my, er, the Word! You're getting sloppy in your jargon! Say it wrong properly or don't say it wrong at all!

Was it, "I was a fool to have waundered and strayed. "Straight is the gate and narrow's the way. "But I've been changed from the wrong to the right. "Praise the Lord! I saw the light."?