satori001

Yes, that's much closer to the way these things happen. There's no "recipe" for an aspiring cult leader to follow. If you have to ask how, you will fail. It begins with a personality. That personality is "magnetic," or "charismatic." There is nothing wrong with those traits unless there is something wrong with the person possessing them. In Wierwille's case, there was. He learned insights over years through experience - and reading - on how to exert influence, command loyalty and require obedience. He cultivated an image to be idolized. If he had a cookbook, it was the bible, but he twisted it to persuade the faithful that he was also an object for their faith. And, abra-cadabra-believing=receiving, it was so. Presto-change-o, Man o' God-o.

HCM, Please explain why this is not a "package statement." Or if it is, why do you get to make it, but others don't? What "cult" have I joined, do you imagine? What makes you think I have read cult books exclusively, or that you know what else I've read? You know, when you say, "Here's an idea, Read the BIBLE," I think back to the good old days of TWI and I want to say, "Here's an idea for YOU, bucko, take your bible and stick it where the sun don't shine..." It must be the love I'm feelin' right about then. Way Love. Don't ever tell me to read the bible, particularly not in that manner, fashion or tone. Okay? If you do, you'll be tapping into several years of, well, it isn't love, stuff which mostly just sleeps with the past. Call them unpleasant experiences. I shouldn't fault you for using scripture like it was a club, made to swing in the face of others with a mighty, righteous indignation. "You can't go beyond what you're taught" (just kidding) -- or maybe old habits die hard. Anyway... You stated: "...MY pov is that you spout 'THEY the eternally EVIL ones decieved ME, yet you willingly sign on the dotted line and support the new cult willingly with all of the same vim and vigor of the old..." I'm not sure where you're getting this. It seems exaggerated for effect, but beyond any reasonable comparison. You asked me if I read. Yes, I do. I read your quotation, as a "pov," but I have to wonder where your pov (means point of view, folks) is coming from. Beyond that, I'm sorry if you took anything I wrote to be a "veiled insult." I guess my diplomatic skills are lacking, but my purpose was to spare you the perception of an insult where none was intended. You seem hell-bent on finding it there anyway. If I was insulting you, you would know it. I really don't fault people who fail to see the influence of a cult in their lives, because by its nature, we all fail to see it in some part. Like the parable of the blind men and the elephant, you may describe the trunk while I describe the leg, because the limitations of our experience make us specialists on our own lives first. I won't be offended if your description of a "trunk" does not agree with my experience of a "leg." I think it's more important, if we're to understand the nature of the beast, to discover how the two parts connect. -- By the way, HCW, the reason I complimented you was because I believe the things you've written about yourself. I see no need to "earn" some privilege first, before acknowledging your accomplishments. Do you? Your struggle to heal, your involvement with your church, your love for your kids (implicit, but obvious), are enough to admire. I can see how that would .... you off though. (Not really.) PS Had a nice family day. Hope you did the same. -edited for grammar-

The driver was doing two things at once while behind the wheel, and solely responsible for twenty some lives. Had his attention been a little less divided, he might have begun to notice changing conditions a few seconds earlier. Those seconds, at "highway speeds," (50 mph = 73 feet/second) could have made all the difference. Anybody who drives while talking on a cell phone knows their attention level is diminished in the process, and their driving ability is compromised. Sorry, if you think you're different, it's a little like saying you're fine driving drunk. Research indicates otherwise. It's not such a stretch to suggest reading an evaluation form at the wheel might have the same effect. Divided attention raises the threshold of sensitivity to change. Period.

I don't know that Vic ever read Linda Z's imaginary "Cult 101," but he did read a lot. He did relate much of what he read to his management of TWI. For one instance, he had a keen interest in hunting dogs. I remember very clearly Wierwille saying a particular manual on training dogs gave some excellent guidelines for training people, in particular, The Way Corps. Permit me to try a little experiment here. Hey Linda! Roll over, girl! Nothin'? Well, some are always gonna be more "trainable" than others.

HCW, By the time the driver took "corrective action," it was too late. Blame the wind. Blame the road. Blame the changing landscape. Seems to me you said a decision was made to discontinue the evaluation because it was unwise, or something like that, to do it while driving. By that time it was too late. The driver was distracted beyond the point of no return. He didn't see it coming because he was distracted. Regarding some of the other stuff, I don't have time to answer now, being Sunday and kind of a family day, but I hope you will give me a chance. Regards...

Well, then again, they're children.

Hey Vickles, It's only my recollection of information I've read here and there about behavior modification in groups, specifically cults. There are others here who are much more knowledgable, and probably archived threads with lots of good info. I haven't read Word Wolf's reply yet. The Way Corps was more about conditioning than training, in my opinion. The "training" was inconsistent, usually without collateral reading, or limited to pamphlets rather than text books. Beneath the "training," there was consistent ritual, reinforcing the pre-eminance of TWI and its leaders. This was often nothing more than repetitious prayer, always for the leaders, the root locale, and the "Way Tree" (hierarchy of authority). More later. Regards...

HCW, 1. He alone lost control of the vehicle 2. He was behind schedule because LEAD 104 required more time for its evaluations Whatever you might factor in, his was the immediate responsibility, and TWI's the ultimate, for the accident - as I see it. If you've ever taken a defensive driving course beyond high school driver ed, they stress one thing above all else - if you are behind the wheel, you are responsible for whatever goes wrong. It is essential for every driver to "take ownership" of that reality. The point some of us are making is that The Way International wasn't just some Christian group gone wrong, like so many televangelists. The Way International was, and is, a "cult" - a phenomenon of psycho-social behavior which exerts a web of unhealthy influence over its members, both subtle and overt. TWI's pervasive culture of secrecy, its claimed monopoly on truth, its reliance upon personalities (VPW first, later LCM and the list of Way celebrities), its alienation from society (the "world"), its hierarchy of initiations (through classes and programs), and many other behaviors follow the pattern. Why do you think the in-res Corps sang childrens' songs at every meal? Why were so many in-res Corps meetings held sitting on a floor, with little room to move? These are strategies for conditioning human behavior. They work, too. Some here may be relatively new to this site, and therefore this idea. There are some recommended books on the this topic. Reading one or two, one may be in a better position to judge the circumstances of the LEAD 104 incident from a more critical, if at first counter-intuitive, perspective. Some of us are getting our first, close look, but you may need to step back a bit more than you have yet. You've come a long way since your days in TWI, and you've obviously led a commendable life since, but some of the things you've written suggest to me that you haven't sorted through some of the TWI baggage we all took away with us. Hopefully lurkers, visitors and newcomers to Greasespot will find the time and inclination to review and reflect upon the resources here - the experiences of others, and recommended books on the topic of cult behavior, and then draw their own best conclusions. Just a thought, for what it's worth. Regards...

Where do they go? They go to prepare the way for us, as it was prepared for them.

Ouch!! It hurts just reading that.

Wondering, you're entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you're a fan, you're a fan. Up close and personal, he has plenty of charisma and personal charm, I'll grant you. Then again, what he is, and what he was, may be two different things. But then again, circumstances may bring out the truth which is otherwise concealed. Didn't John Lynn do a teaching on the Greek word that meant "to pierce?" Maybe it was "to test by piercing." It might apply here. He was "tested" back then. When has he been tested lately? On the one hand, remember, individuals behave differently as part of a group. Why else would hundreds of Corps sit sheep-faced on their butts when one of their own was unreasonably and even mercilessly "reemed" by just one little a-hole, be it Martindale, or Lynn, or the old bastard Wierwille, when they could have just as easily all stood up as one and stopped the evil? The group mindset creates passivity, even complacency, in the face of something most individuals might find highly unacceptable. Did anyone ever stand up and say, "For God's sake, shut up John!... Shut up, Craig!... Shut up, Vic! Back up and get your lousy, storm-trooper boot off my brother's neck." It was rare, if ever. I don't know about it. The insufferable belligerance these a-holes showed to (God's) people whenever they got the "spiritual" hair up their butt was a disgrace - by any standard. Who did they think they were, Wondering? Have you ever wondered? But on the other hand, being the leader of a group also brings out a different side of one's nature, for good or for evil. As I recall, John Lynn, when in control of things (and has he really ever held the reins since? I don't think so), was not a very nice specimen. He got them laughing, which gave him the rep as a fun guy, but not without a certain, trademark cruelty you may choose to disregard, or to forget. I have no reason to believe he's changed, unless I want to believe his own well-scripted professions of contrition. Since I don't have anything to do with CES, and he is in a mostly harmless position now, I don't much care. But I haven't become more naive with age either. Have you? If he were transported back in time, back to Emporia, I think he could easily revert to old ways. His unwillingness to engage people here, with the exception of a canned statement, seems to substantiate that for me. Somehow, he's still the cool, aloof, distant JAL, though liberal with words of agape. Not for you, apparently. Fine. We each have our opinions.

But... but... I thought John Lynn was really just a loving guy-of-God who got caught up with a bunch of bums. Surely he wasn't the cold-blooded, bureaucratic a-hole you make him out to be! I'm so disillusioned. You mean the real him didn't please stand up? I'm shocked, just shocked. By the way, criminals who sign confessions under duress are let off all the time. You may have a case for signing your agreement under similar conditions. It may be part of the story to come, but I think you should have the benefit of additional and sound legal advice from a really good "pit-bull" of a personal injury law firm. Hopefully the statute of limitations has not expired, but even so, a lawyer friend of mine tells me the law is pretty flexible sometimes, no matter how "iron-clad" it sounds. TWI needs to be punished, and you and others on LEAD 104 need to be compensated. Just my humble opinion HCW. No matter how much you could ever win, this has cost you your health. There is no going back to the day before it happened.

Never mind. Answered my question while I was writing it. Thanks.

OK, discussion ends here. Sorry for the interruption.

oldiesman, that "teaching" was calculated lip-service for the benefit of critics. The Way's definition of reckless was this: risky behavior without the benefit of revelation. But what was revelation? A still small voice. What was an inspired action? An impulse. And how often did we hear teachings about Daniel in the lion's den, Moses walking into the sea, and numerous other examples of behavior that wasn't just risky but insane, from a "natural man's" point of view? And what is a "natural man" but one who understands the nature of creation? We were taught to disregard our senses, counting on God (enabled ONLY - if you can believe that - by our believing-magic) to change the rules for our benefit. As I said, I don't expect you to get it. Insanity may afflict some of us, but sanity is still a choice for the rest of us. It is insane to deny the direct connection between a person's core beliefs and his subsequent choices and behavior.

oldiesman, I did say that the driver was primarily responsible. You choose to ignore that, just as you ignore all the contributing circumstances created by The Way Ministry management leading to a mentality where people took foolish risks because of the indoctrinated belief that "believing" (as defined in "The Bible Tells Me So," etc.) was a powerful magic, able to shape reality out of one's words, thoughts and imagination. "Ye shall be as gods." Ring familiar? This led Way management to make demands upon followers without empathy or conscience, placing all blame ("condemnation") for failure, and the occasional and inevitable tragedies in the wake of those demands on the heads of those obedient (and abysmally naive) followers. The Way's doctrine of believing-magic also created a sense of invulnerability in many followers, especially those in the Corps, forced to "prove" their magical abilities to maintain their place and status within the "household." That, oldiesman, is why The Way is and was a "cult," and why the cult's management is ultimately responsible, and culpable, for the accident, the injuries, and even Rochelle's death, and so much more that remains hidden from view in its sordid, secret history. I don't expect you, or others like you, to get it. You have only one thing against The Way, in truth - they don't want you. You may even be using Greasespot as a way of proving your worthiness to be taken back into the fold, where I think you would be very comfortable again, despite everything you know about it.

And one of their key policies to drive the driver was to force the L.E.A.D. evaluator to conduct the evaluation right in the middle of him driving the truck.Satori... dead-on post!!! Yes, that's right oldiesman. You think it's absurd? Way management mandated the extended evaluations (not for one or two participants, but ALL of them) be completed within the limited LEAD schedule time-frame rather than providing additional needed time. The "naked emporor" here, which nobody wants to mention, is that the patented TWI magic (the so-called "keys to believing") doesn't WORK like a light switch. Believing doesn't "work" with any predictability, if it "works" at all. If believing had worked for Ministry management, they never would have needed LEAD to sort the winners from the losers.

They, and other Way executives overseeing the Corps and LEAD programs, are most definitely responsible. They weren't driving the truck, but their policies were driving the driver.

EXACTLY. Ya see, the dumba$$ cheap Trustees should have gotten those dumba$$ Corps Coordinators and Lead Coordinators all together in one room, and hired enlarged staff and with that enlarged staff, told those dumba$$e$: hey fellas, when ya drivin' a truck, make damn sure ya have your two hands on the steering wheel, and your two eyes on the road! But those damned Trustees didn't do that. In fact, they shoulda realized something like this could happen, and conducted driving lessons too! oldiesman, when you put employees under the pressure of time constraints, they may have to cut corners to deliver results on time. If you're talking about the BRC offices at Headquarters, where somebody might stumble over a stapler, that's one thing. But when you're talking about Way Builders, or LEAD, or any operation where safety is a critical consideration, then management MUST stress safety above all else. What did TWI stress? "Believing," in other words, magic. And of course, results. Safety was only a factor of your believing. If you "believed" (practiced amateur magic), God would cover (because he loves amateur magicians). WHAT is TWI renowned for saying any time a "believer" (amateur magician) gets sick or hurt. It's their BELIEVING, right oldiesman? They believed for disease or injury or death, just like old, dead of cancer Victor P. Wierwille, uh, or was that an attack-of-the-Adversary? - stay tuned for the "present truth" to be revealed, depending on what time it is. You can say it's impossible for TWI management to take oversight to enforce safety standards and measures adequate for preventing every accident. But they did enforce those measures, selectively. You can bet Vic's bus and airplane were well inspected, and that sufficient TIME was allowed to do the job right. But LEAD placed a big priority on the schedule. It was a matter of honor and pride (and believing, which is magic) to arrive at LEAD, and back, on TIME. And LEAD staff was a big part of that, getting the (spiritual) hitchhikers back on the road on time. Even if it meant reading evaluation forms, driving 50 mph in strong crosswinds with a trailer and a truck load of people. Is it stupid to do that? No, not if you're "believing" is there. You're covered, bro. You can do anything with believing (magic), and do it safely, even if it looks a little dangerous. Why didn't HCW say, "Stop this thing, I'm not proceeding with the eval while you're driving?" Because he would have been questioning the driver's believing, that's why, and his own would be on the line. After all, he was part of LEAD 104, the losers' group. He would be giving in to fear (FALSE EVIDENCE APPEARING REAL), and that would be putting everyone at risk of losing their (magical) hedge of protection, giving the Adversary an opportunity to steal, kill and destroy. So HCW didn't confess any negatives, like "slow this goddam truck down now, dammit." That would have been negative. Why? Because that's what TWI taught, and not only taught, but enforced with systematic intimidation. Being assigned to LEAD-for-Losers group 104 was part of TWI's ugly campaign of intimidation against its own followers, especially Corps (who in turn, turned it upon others). It just stinks of Martindale, to tell you the truth, it reeks of the stain and stench of "spiritual" humiliation, L. Craig Martindale's modus operandi. If it had come down from TWI management that safety PRACTICE was a part of the culture and structure of LEAD (as it was on the rocks), the accident wouldn't have happened, at least, not the way it did. The LEAD culture was to teach RISK-taking as an element of "believing" (magic). I guess you weren't really there, at TWI. The sad part is, this tragedy probably confirmed The Way management's warped assessment of the LEAD 104 group. The losers couldn't even believe to prevent an accident.

I remember begging my parents to buy me a Standel amp. It was called an Eliminator, or Abominator, or something like that. It had colored plastic push buttons on it. I'm real glad now that they said no, but at the time I didn't think I'd live to the weekend without it. They'd have been happy to buy me that little Fender amp that I'd give anything to own now, but it was way too uncool.

oldiesman, you may be incapable of understanding what is at issue. Until this post, I thought you were only unwilling.

Oh, "by the way." Why is it swept under the rug? Because NEGLIGENCE = LIABILITY, that's why.

oldiesman, The driver was responsible for the accident. Yes. Nobody would question that, so your real point is that you are missing the point. Who was the driver's employer? What was the driver doing while driving? Why? Specifically, what were the circumstances leading to a distracted, young man reading an evaluation form, while operating a fast-moving truck, towing a trailer, with a load of people in the back on a windy, back-country highway. No red flags for you, huh? Blame stops with the driver? How convenient for the Board of Trustees, who consistently appointed -what shall we call them? okay - dumbasses, to run the Corps, and consequently to make asinine decisions like the one that led to (remedial) LEAD group 104, requiring extended evaluations for which there was INSUFFICIENT TIME to complete. I'm not saying Way management wanted the accident to happen. They were just too stupid and thoughtless, oh, and NEGLIGENT!! to consider the danger of over-burdening the LEAD staff, when it was already under so many other constraints, real and administrative.

HCW, I considered Rochelle a friend of mine, through a mutual friend. Thanks for telling this story. The TWI management philosophy is: "deprivation + believing = abundance." The top leadership applies this philosophy (a.k.a., magic formula) to everyone but themselves. By hand-picking their high-maintenance Corps people (by their own cold, cynical reckoning) for LEAD Group 104 (and whose bone-headed, foolish idea was it? Lynn's? Martindale's? - whatever, they had to approve it), TWI management over-burdened the competent but small staff at Tinney. Management's expectation, as usual, was they would be well-served by the magical "believing" of the staff, or if not, they could blame the staff for its failure to "believe" (practice effective magic). No believing (magic) required on their own part - pretty convenient. For crying out loud, the LEAD program was in the wilderness! That was the idea for creating a "challenge." Screw-ups anywhere are dangerous enough, but even minor accidents in the wilderness can become deadly. So dumbass TWI leadership sends this (supposedly) issue-prone "losers" group - all together. To a virtual survival camp?? And you ask the bare-bones staff, in one session, to keep them all safe, enable them to climb vertical rock walls, AND do your vetting work for you - the work that should have been done on the field, one-on-one, or in residence? If TWI leaders couldn't "believe" to get the vetting done in a safer, controlled environment, what made them think LEAD would be such a nifty idea? They were f-ing STUPID, that's what. They were also thoughtless, or callous, or even cold-blooded, mercenary bastards, where people's lives were concerned. They made a show of "loving" people, but the love-dove stuff went down the crapper when personal priorities or ministry goals were at stake. What TWI was hoping to do with LEAD 104 was save time, letting the LEAD program shake you all loose as efficiently as possible. I'll be honest here. I don't think Rochelle was ever meant for the Corps program, neither for what it was supposed to be (and never was), and especially, not for what it was - from the 6th Corps(approximately) on. I believe she was looking for a place to belong, where her talents and intelligence could be put to the best possible purpose, and hoped the Corps would provide it - not just a "place," but a family. Had TWI been a truly Christian group, and not the fraud it quickly became as Wierwille realized his ambitions, she might have found it, and herself. To the Way Corps program, as it was, she was a throw-away, along with so many others, caught in the net but to be tossed out, unwanted. I hope you'll continue. Regards...

So if they practice, if not promote, an anti-biblical lifestyle, why do so many bible hounds stick around? Only one reason I can think of: TWI has a monopoly on biblical research and the rightly divided God-breathed Word. Is that it? Where else can you go for the truth, but to a bunch of liars who own the copyrights? Kind of funny. You'd think God would be smarter than that.