satori001

Since there are a few new ex-Corps folks posting here since the LEAD thread, I thought they might find this of some interest.

I once met someone who was convinced he had a miraculous "power" over street lights. They would often dim or go out as he approached in his car. Uncanny! Why, oh why, couldn't he put this fantastic power to better use? What was God trying to tell him? Kidding. Lots of street lights have photo-sensitive switches that turn them on around dusk. If they aren't properly adjusted, your headlights could affect them. It never occurred to him, and I didn't spoil it for him either. I have no idea what is a miracle and what is not. Something may have the quality of the "miraculous," or it may not, and if there are miracles, that quality may be as misleading as it seems a certain proof. A coincidence could seem miraculous, but I wouldn't assign any significance to it. But a series of them, each related in some way, as if directed by some divine stagecraft, does get my attention. Consistent patterns get my attention, where unrelated, external events (beyond my control or influence) seem "directed" by the same unseen director, evidenced by inexplicable similarities. Maybe I'll post an example later on. Patterns and anomalies (the exceptions to patterns) should both catch our attention. Most of the time, they instruct us about the world around us. Occasionally, they contradict everything we think we know. I wouldn't make them the basis for a religion, but they do teach me to keep an open mind.

George, I fear we may need to define "miracle." Mine is somewhat different from Wierwille's. Wha? Myopara ya? Moi? Bourgois Georgeois?

Yanagisawa, shall we exhume Hume? Sorry, just my humor.

George, I looked wet blanket up in the dictionary. Recent picture? :)-->Perspective, yes. It's all persective. What else do we have when it comes right down to it? If you were God, George, all other things being as they are, and you "ran things this way," would you be a) some wonderful, all-loving entity, anxiously anticipating the next opportunity to perform the miraculous; or b) one capricious mutha f$%^er, with a downright warped sense of humor as well? I guess it would depend upon who you asked. Right? Can we imagine a miraculous universe without imposing our image of God upon its design? I can. I do not imagine a universe without God, but one without my understanding or direct knowledge of God, therefore without rhyme, reason, or explanation from anyone else's perspective, God's included, but my own. It simply is, as it is. Good or evil are my points of view, that's all. Would any presupposed God be conscious of human comings and goings in the same way we are? I don't see how. Remember, I said good and bad things happen. The miraculous is not limited to the things of which we approve, or the things which we desire. Wonderful, or terrible, or non-descript and neutral (to our view), miraculous is miraculous.

Well that's my point, Hammeroni. It's effortless here, as it should be.I am not asking you to accept the "miraculous" nature of any coincidence in my life. What I AM saying is, TWI co-opted the "spiritual" realm, and everything they could then include with it (like "finances" - verrry spiritual stuff). They managed to re-define any sort of miraculous intervention (which most of us have probably seen in our own lives) as God, acting according to the revealed Word and Wier-Will of God, who does what He's told, as long as He is the one telling Himself. TWI's version of the bible is an iron-clad contract with the divine. Unfortunately, it's unenforcible, as Wierwille discovered when he died of cancer. Promises, promises. I don't know if God just wanted to bless me, as Matilda says (and thank you, Matilda). It would be nice to think so, but I just don't know. What I DO know, is that the odds against this little coincidence are fairly good, yet it happened. I don't define it. To me, that is the meaning of miraculous.

"I've forgotten more about the bible than I'll ever know." "I have no friends when it comes to Mr. Happy."

Wasn't this fun?

I have occasionally referred to TWI's guaranteed keys to believing as "magic." It's the "red drapes" nonsense Wierwille taught, the "fear..., in the life..., of that woman..., what kilt dat little bitty boy..." Talk about fear mongering, Wierwille must have set the new gold standard for it with that monstrous superstition. That Hummer didn't flatten Fluffy, YOU did, with your negative believing. Every time you'd see Fluffy playing in the road you'd say, "I'm so afraid for Fluffy." Enough of Wierwille's crap. Your fear didn't flatten Fluffy. Michelins did. But we've also seen things that became "proofs" to us that an unseen world, and an unseen grace perhaps, was out there somewhere, and occasionally (seeing through a glass darkly) we would stumble into it. Occasionally people were "healed." No other word for it. Occasionally the miraculous did occur, and there is no other (reasonable) explanation for it. My dad, an atheist, in his eighties drove hundreds of miles on interstates and back roads until he stopped, finally, at a little motel in Alabama. He had stopped at two other hotels first, one being unsatisfactory, the other being too expensive (he can afford it, but couldn't see paying so much). Hours later, his heart nearly stopped, due to complications of arrhythmia (sp), fatigue, and neglecting to take his medication while on the road. He experienced it as a loss of balance, dizziness, and some kind of gentle pressure on his chest, as if compelled to exhale. Forcing himself to move around temporarily got his heart beating again, but he knew he had to see a doctor. Directly across the street from the hotel was a modern hospital. He walked over, checked in, went into surgery, and emerged a couple of days later with a pace-maker. Had the hospital not been there, it would have turned out differently. I mentioned to him on the phone that the coincidence of being so close to a hospital was "miraculous." The hotel manager, a black minister from a local church, was extremely attentive to my father and his wife. This too had the glimmer of the miraculous. My father's wife has always feared blacks (being of a certain generation and mindset), and my father has always distrusted clergy. Before leaving the hotel, they made a generous contribution to the minister's church, because he would not accept any gift or "tip" for himself. They left with a gift for which there was no price, and nothing to repay, and they could not help but show gratitude with some small token. If you knew my father, making a gift to a church might seem more miraculous than having a hospital across the street. I see this strange confluence of circumstances and events as only miraculous, simply miraculous, and without any need for further explanation. To explain it would be to miss it, to lose it. Regardless of TWI's lessons in magical-believing-McSorcery, good things, and bad things, do happen - and both of which may, occasionally, suggest an order to the universe set by agents unseen and unknown, that override the apparent randomness of events, and I think of those things not as results, but as gifts. Call me sentimental.

I for one am relieved we haven't seen an epidemic of devil biting out here on the field, but if we do, it's great knowing we're prepared.

Bitten By Devils The amazing and true story of Clarita Villanueva, what happened to her while in Manila, Philippines in the Bilibid Prison. The story made major national TV and newspapers. While in prison she suffered tormenting attacks by demonic spirits that actually left bite marks on her body.

I think we share many cultural imperatives which may become "authorities." For instance, common courtesy is a kind of authority. Kindness, another. Logic is a biggy, and would be even bigger if more than 5% of the population could think logically. Even so, the remainder (remnant?) seem to recognize logical thinking, if they can't also do it. A good case, logically stated, has inherent "authority." Administrators are the authorities of last resort, as it should be I think. Our common sense of right and wrong is a powerful authority. The "majority" can also be an authority too, just by asserting its preference. The majority is not always right, of course, which is why there are some rules and some administrators, to protect the minority, and to keep the peace, when the villagers reach for their torches and pitchforks. The majority can be manipulated. I've been reproved by my own sense of right and wrong, in somenone else's words, appealing to the authority of a higher principle. It's a variation of Samuel's talk with David, which concluded with "Thou art the man." A few are really good at it. (I'm probably not one of them.)

vickles, I could think of any number of reasons why it's okay to do it, beginning with the knowledge that plenty of restaurants routinely misrepresent what they serve. So misrepresenting WHO they serve is only just desserts, so to speak.On the other hand, I'd still rather pay full price than get myself into an ethical dilemma over a couple of dollars. If money was tight, I wouldn't give it a 2nd thought. The restaurant is still making money. If the promotion brings you in, it's doing exactly what they intended it to do.

"This (taste) bud's for you..." Getting an unexpected "French kiss" was fairly common in TWI. Was that the "holy" kiss, according to usage? I think women were far more often the recipients of this than men, but I got something close from Janet M once on the WOW field. It made me want to rip off my clothes right there (and burn them). How wide-spread was this practice? Were you "taught" that it was "healing" somehow? Did you do it? If so, did you believe there was some benefit beyond a little thrill, or were you just paying it lipservice, because it was the thing to do?

Yeah, talk about misinterpretation of tongues.

I recall from Way Daze how we used to look for the "spiritual" significance in every coincidence. More than that, it seemed that every situation in our lives was the product of believing, positive or negative, or a blessing from God, or an attack of the adversary, or the consequence of others' positive/negative believing around us. "It may be necessary to put unbelievers out of the room." Remember that? Nah, we weren't superstitious, like those crazy Catholics with their candles and saints - it was all there in the bible. I thought of this when Shaz mentioned TWI's spiritualization of "reproof." That's how they made us listen - they moved it from the physical domain to the spiritual, where they claimed dominion. Weren't we sophisticated? Didn't the claim that "all life is spiritual" attempt to transfer all (your) life under TWI's dominion? I think so. It was a favorite teaching of John Lynn, wasn't it? "All of life is spiritual." True or not, it can become a little distracting if you're always thinking about it. Even scary, to the point you might need TWI to steer you safely amidst the perils. So the question is, how much to you still "spiritualize" your life? Are numbers still telling? 8 is a new beginning. 11 is ordinal imperfection (I think), while 12 is ordinal perfection. 6 sucks. 7 is heaven. 9 is completely completely complete. Twice is established. Third time's the charm. (Oops, that one was devilish.)

That's it Shaz. TWI spiritualized everything. That allowed them to co-opt it, to own it, and eventually, they owned us too. When someone says, "They didn't own me, I wasn't in no cult," it reminds me of the stage hypnotist's volunteer (victim) who swears the hypnotist has no ability, while he flaps his arms and his pants are around his knees. (Maybe the "volunteer's" a plant, and an actor, but the image still communicates.) Good come back line, on the thread, by the way.

Beats the hell out of me how we can communicate at all sometimes.

Okay, well I'm going to try to tie this thing into our experience at WayWhirled. Reproof was a value-added service, provided as a benefit of our (unofficial) membership in The Way. You weren't just reproved for the shortcoming or misdeed, you were informed of its spiritual significance. Some stuff I've been reproved for in the Way, the offense, and the significance: 1. For being late to a Fellowship Leaders' meeting - I delayed the beginning of the meeting, and I showed disrespect to the man of God, indicating a heart that was neither loving nor meek 2. For eating a cookie provided for the PFAL class break - I stole the cookie - not just from anybody, but from God Himself. 3. For pouring a cold cup of coffee in the bushes - I was showing disrepect for the grounds (not the coffee grounds, the campus grounds) and killing the bush that belonged to God. I did manage to point out that coffee was biodegradable, and not toxic - to which my reprover said, "Well, what if EVERYBODY poured their coffee on the bush??" I had no answer, but only because the question's manifest stupidity was so overwhelming it left me speechless - permitting the reprover to have his satisfaction, and I was just embarrassed in front of his little audience. If only I'd known then what I know now, I'd have seen these sucker punches for what they were and been prepared for them. Oh well. Now, this stuff can't happen at Greasespot, not nearly as much anyway. For one thing, we can sit back and read before we respond. For another, we submit to no one here. Your God, as you understand God, may or may not be my God, as I do. Certainly, your understanding of "truth" is your own, and mine is my own. There is no common "standard for truth" here, except what we know is true by our own knowledge and experience. No matter, we still reprove each other, but for what? Much better reasons maybe. If we are arguing about TWI, then our arguments are either sound, or unsound. As laleo points out, logical reproof is a good persuader. What have you been reproved here for? I could make a long, long list, most if it being not too valid, some very insightful. I find reproof has a subject and an object. The subject is the reproof topic. The object is the reproof reason, usually another thing entirely. In The Way, the subject of reproof was a specific failure of some kind, according to TWI's biblical/extra-biblical codes of behavior, or as the other person had it "revealed unto" them. The object was what the person was really after - usually a contest of dominance/submission, much like wild dogs may snarl at one another in a pack, or roosters challenging each other in a pen, to establish their place in the pecking order. Our wonderful ministry, huh keeds? The rungs on the ministry career and social ladders were made of people, and how high you got was more and more directly related to how many people you stepped on. Didn't apply to everyone, but it became the prevalent means (I believe) by the early 80's. Does reproof bother you? Does it have to have some basis in fact to have an emotional impact? What if you know it is wrong? Does it bother you anyway, or does that allow you to write it off?

So if Timothy & Titus represent themselves to be the work of Paul, and they are not, that opens a big old can of worms. Somebody's gonna get reproved for that.

Yeah, but what did they claim it meant?

What was the official TWI definition of "reproof," according to abusage? Wasn't it more to do straightening you out, or was that correction? Doctrine = "do this" Reproof = "you didn't do this, you did that" Correction = "now that you know that's wrong, do this" How does all this compare with ordinary, run of the mill, human interaction - without all the cult baggage? People reprove one another all the time. They use other standards than the bible. Which standards? - edited for punked u-ation

waterbuffalo, I've known laleo for a long time on these forums. I know her humor pretty well, and hope she knows mine (such as it is). My reply was tongue-in-cheek.

Thanks Jim. A perfect example of "stealth reproof." (See original post.)

In deference to laleo's reproof, I will add a TWI reference to the introductory post. Sheesh.