satori001

Yeah, for me that cost was probably extremely high. Wierwille was a "pied piper," who bewitched a lot of kids into pouring their youth into the impossible realization of his fantasy world.I didn't "lose" my youth either. The energy we have at that age can build the foundation for a life's work. It's nothing to work 80 - 120 hours a week if you have to. Now, an 80-hour week is not so easy. I can't complain, but I have friends who are now executive VP's, esteemed doctors, the owners of growing businesses... I'm still living by my wits while many contemporaries (and "equals" I think) are living off their equity. If it hadn't been Wierwille, perhaps it would have been someone else. I don't know. The appeal of TWI was its unique ("Christian") credibility. I gave them the benefit of the doubt on that account. Regrettably.

Maybe these places.Looks like you have a lot of salt to try at WFC too.

I was thinking of ways to answer that, even before you asked. I guess it had to do with the community, or "family." Of course it meant something.ROA 74 may have been the zenith of that phenomenon. When I came along a few years later, it was a fragmented version. I saw it within fellowships, and individuals, but not everywhere. Whatever "it" was, that tide was already receding, and a new tide rising. I remember "it" inspired much nostalgia in its wake. Even so, there was a new zeitgeist, an enthusiasm for all the wonderful improvements they saw around them. They were taking "it" to a new level. Or something.

Whatever it was, or wasn't, I'm sorry I missed it. Probably lucky, too.

Kosher salt is cool. It looks like something between a flake and a crystal. You won't need much. I liked sea salt too, but haven't had it for years. Remember kelp? We used it instead of pepper. Didn't taste a damn thing like pepper. I love black pepper too. I use a grinder. I know, kelp was a lot better for me.

Okay Al, you can worry about them if you like. They don't give a damn about you of course. And why should they, you copped out possess-o? You're probably a 5-star general or somethin' because you're so dang subtle. What's your name?? Get thee behind me! (Just kidding.)They can come here and take or leave whatever they like. They contribute NOTHING to this place. They can stay in TWI, and they can rot for all I care. Was that insensitive? I just gotta renew my mind one of these days.

I'm saying it can't be any worse than ordinary salt, and it tastes a lot better. It's not iodized, and iodine is one of those trace minerals we need. It's not so necessary as it once was to get it in table salt, but you should make sure you get iodine (tiny, tiny trace amount - it's poisonous otherwise) from something else.

It was a kind of "hysteria," not in the ordinary sense of the word.Emotions are contagious, and they bypass our rational thinking. Yawning is contagious. So is panic, according to a recent study. Why not others? If you could "fall in love" with an individual, why not with a group of individuals? A family, a tribe, a cult? Outside of families, and sports fans, it doesn't often happen in our culture, but there is no less logic in group infatuation as there is when we fall in love with an individual person. Maybe it relates to some vestigial, instinctive behavior (a normally dormant operating system sub-routine) locked in our brains. Maybe our feelings aren't as selective as we think, or maybe there are additional criteria for triggering the "love mechanism." I don't deny the love of God, but I doubt the acceptance you felt at TWI is the same thing that motivated Jesus to die on the cross. Ya know?

I bought some kosher salt because it is supposedly (I don't believe it) better than ordinary rock salt for melting ice should Winter occur. I never found out. Sodium chloride (NaCl) is just sodium chloride, right? Apparently not. Out of curiosity, my ice-melting salt found its way on to my dinner table. What a difference! Turns out, a lot of chefs on the Cooking Channel (Food Network) recommend it. Who knew? The stuff is great! Maybe the name brand table salt has additives that affect the flavor. I dunno. Some of you can't eat salt any more. Some of you use it sparingly. Some of you salt everything you can, like me. For salt lovers, try it. I'm sure there is more exotic stuff out there, because if this is good, at $2 a container, there must be something that costs much more. Like sea salt, mined from the Sea of Tranquility maybe? I'll try to get around to it. In the mean time, kosher salt rules.

Disney is funny about sex. They must have constant internal battles about how much to show. This topic may show us how far it's come. That must cost a small fortune to accomplish. Every frame she's in. I wonder if... "The 2005 Oscar nominations for special effects are: 'Sky Captain,' for the alien robot dogfight over New York City; 'Spiderman 2' for the Doc Ock robot-spider dude; 'Star Wars,' for the robot rebellion; 'I, Robot' for the robot rebellion; and 'Herbie: Fully Loaded,' for, ummm, this can't... Lindsay's robo-boobs?" Having been re-introduced to the "Disney family" of cartoon characters, I've noticed that sexuality is a far more dominant aspect of their identities than in the Mary Poppins days. http://disney.store.go.com/DSSectionPage.p...ection_Id=13925 Belle in particular may have a "come hither" look that will give dads cause for a double-take. It's still a far cry from Japanese animations, the borderline soft-core anime/manga (I don't know the difference), with names like "Sailor Moon," but Disney seems to have taken notice of its growing appeal. I'm not a fan of anime, or Disney, but I want to know what messages Disney has in store for little girls, one young lady in particular. The "be a princess, get a prince, and live happily ever after" fantasy theme is still alive and well in re-cycled and new fare marketed to the under-10 age group. It seems to become more "PC" as they court the adolescent market. By then, has the damage already been done? If Lohan was too "grown up" for the part, maybe they should have cast someone else. Speaking of Lohan, her dad is a real piece of work. I hope he doesn't end up doing something really stupid. It's hard to pity a rich, beautiful Disney "star," but she's still a kid.

Wierwillian spikes? He was strongly suspected of spiking drinks. Did Wierwille ever mention revelatory visions? He talked about a literal snowstorm at a filling station in July, but that's not exactly tripping through fields of ambrosia like John the Revelator. He described "revelation" during a class, again pretty prosaic stuff. "I gots a pain in ma ovary! But nuts, I don't have ovaries, so it must be revelation from Big Daddy, or the hernia's acting up. If it's revelation I get to feel up... er, lay hands on this wonderful woman of Gawd. Something's just come up honey, and it's available if you're able to receive it, a 'spike' from on high might be in your future. I'll even show you, uh, what to do with it, praise the lord, once you've gawt it." Your "spike" hypothesis is a stretch only because I'm unaware of any time Wierwille spoke of such an experience. He was inclined to describe lots of other experiences, so why not this kind? I wouldn't be surprised if your scenario had played out in some other cult. But it doesn't fit my limited but probably adequate knowledge of Wierwille's personality and behavior. I think his driving ambition was ego-related, pure and simple. Not sporadic spikes of spirituality. He always loved an audience. He clearly loved being a celebrity. It provided him with instant dignity in his community. It provided opportunities to meet and seduce women in his congregation, for some of whom the looks, personality and position were an attractive combination. Wierwille had talents for sales and motivation, and he was hungry. His appetites were progressive and addictive, in that they required more and more to be satisfied. Wierwille, in my estimation, was never the real McCoy, even for a moment. Evidence? How ridiculous is his snowstorm in July "revelation?" What kind of a mind cooks up a story that lame? It wasn't the invention of someone skirting the borders of Heaven. It was the daydream of a con-artist with the spirituality of a gas pump. Wierwille was always a pretender, a fraud, a poser relying on the techniques of a professional salesman. Sure, he had abilities. He had personality. He used it all. Even the sex was probably not an end in itself. Each woman was at most a pathetic conquest, because he eventually relied not upon his charm or his masculinity to win her, but upon his authority and "right" to have her - and he may have spiked her drink too. It hardly dignified his withered little ego, just as the rest of TWI's dog and pony show was designed to do. But it was better than a kick in the head, I suppose. The whole damned ministry set about making Vic feel good about himself, and if we succeeded, maybe he'd share something really special about God in return. Weren't we suckers? As I said, I don't doubt people have such revelatory experiences, and it may even get them in some trouble. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." More often, I think it would help "center" the person, make him or her more circumspect, a wiser and more compassionate person than before. In Wierwille's case, had such an experience ever occurred to him, he'd have quickly forgotten about it. It didn't fit with his "filling station" concept of the Kingdom of Heaven and salvation (a good analogy for running people through PFAL to "be filled with the holy spirit," in a naturally warm environment that turned inexplicably, if not miraculously, cold).

This thread is dedicated to most staff at TWI's various root and field locations. Not all staff will believe they work for creeps, and there may be a few decent souls left in charge of something or other. To those we say, enjoy it while it lasts! But we ALL know, The Way International is just crawling with creeps. It's almost a requirement for additional responsibility. You must prove your ability to abuse others with sufficient finesse to make them stick around, sufficient brutality to keep them intimidated. I know, it may be seen as course, unloving, un-Christian even, to call these creeps "creeps." But I respect the vernacular, the language of the street. It has immediacy, it connects. Besides, just WHAT is the word for "creep" in Way-speak? There is no word that I'm aware of. The words that might apply, like "possessed," or "old man" this or that, are frowned upon when referring to creepy "leadership." But somewhere deep down, we remember what a creep is. We remember what an foot-kisser is, and to our dismay, if not horror, we may realize we've been kissing some creep's foot, because we love God, and we think God wants us to stand on the Word, even if it means crawl like a worm. Years of crippling "positive thinking" has left us few resources for recognizing a pile of crap for what it is, before we place our nice clean shoe into it. (Sorry to mix the metaphors of crap and creep, but they do sound alike.) What makes a creep a creep? How DO we count the ways? You already know of course, but we can think of a few, just to prime the pump. A creep is someone who plays people against each other. A creep is someone who brings their personal problems to work and takes them out on subordinates. A creep is someone who abuses your best qualities (presumably, your love for God), demeans your best efforts, or takes undeserved credit for your own creativity (remember that word?) and sweat. A creep tells you the fruits of your laber belong to God, but takes them for him or herself, presumably on behalf of God. (They must have a special deal worked out.) That's just a few. Now listen. You can go out into "the world" and get a job and find a boss who will treat you like that or worse. The DIFFERENCE is this. What you do at your job is for money, and you make the choice every day whether to stay or find better conditions. What you do for The Way International is for God. Can you make the choice whether to stay or find a better God? No. The difference, then, is that your love for God is being used to keep you in virtual captivity, serving - not God but - men and women who place themselves above you. Is that "freedom" in Christ? Is that "release from your prisons?" God may exist beyond The Way International... Ya think? If He is your sufficiency (to leave the vernacular behind for a moment), then maybe you should prove it. You can shake the dust off your feet. Do yourselves (and truthfully, God too) a favor for a change.

I know that disappointed feeling well. If you haven't seen Crash, it is recommended.

It changed from the top down. Those who didn't change with it left, or became isolated, one way or another.

I edited a number of times while you were posting your reply. I know it didn't matter to lots of us, for a while at least. You don't have to convince me of that. "Things were great in 78, things are fine in 79, things will be weighty in 80." JAL (1979)

I never meant to imply that every "leader" behaved that way. Are you saying you never saw any evidence of that behavior in other "leadership?" Or something else? I knew leaders who accepted lots of volunteer assistance from the "believers," but they worked harder than anybody else. Honorable, but they never reciprocated, except by "teaching." Looking back now, the teaching was over-rated. It seemed like a good deal at the time, but maybe our expectations had been set unrealistically high. Maybe? I knew others who fit the "too precious for this assignment" prima donna mold, expecting to be served in at lease some capacity, if not doted upon. It seemed to me that the closer the leader was ("spiritually") to HQ, and the more they modeled themselves after Craig, come to think of it, the more likely they wanted tributes of time, hospitality, services and gifts from believers. Those tributes had both value and significance. It is the "significance" that I call "kissing foot." It's the psychological compensation they required, enjoyed, needed, and ALWAYS in God's name, for "leading."

Damn, my flight out is at 12:45. Next year?

Sounds like Craig. The God of Martindale is vindictive, petty and just plain rotten, kind of like Craig himself. Coincidence?

Oh. So they were JO buddies?

What's an "RHM?"

I disagree diazbro. There's a free speech issue you haven't addressed. The free expression of religious and political views is a false dichotomy. Both concern the affairs of man, and are often in conflict. If a religion isn't free to express its values in a political context then it is no longer "unregulated." In effect, it's been silenced by the state. Every church today is a non-prophet organization. I'd like to see them taxed anyway, because they use tax-funded services.

I fear NO man (and no more than 1/2 of the women).

I don't think so. For you lefties, I define "sly" as any time you think you're being clever, which is most of the time, and far more often than you succeed.

Thanks for the correction Trefor. That was from imperfect memory. Interesting that kampf and jihad are translated the same way, isn't it? As I see it, Wierwille's jihad was Wierwille over the World. Everything else was window dressing. Hitler's Nazi party was also, by all appearances, nothing but a vehicle for his own pathological ego.

The "Catch-22" Groucho mentioned isn't far from what they did in the "good old days," when one of the church's tests for a witch was whether or not you'd float on water. If you sank and drowned, you were innocent. If you stayed afloat, you were guilty, and they burned you. By the float test, I guess Jesus would have been called a witch.