satori001

If not for the perilously real probability of contracting a nasty disease, promiscuity would probably be the norm until, and possibly after, pairing off to raise a family. But sex procreates, and procreation requires an environment that protects and nurtures life. It doesn't distinguish between a fertilized egg and a virus. Both thrive. Pity.

Feh.

dmiller, if you had written WG's copy this thread would have died long ago. If you'd said, "Hear the greatness of the Word taught by inspired men of God as they work the integrity of God's matchless Word, as taught to us all in PFAL by our father in the Word, Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille!" then somebody might have taken the littlest exception.

Yeah, me too itchley. Happy birthday. Hope you are well.

Trouble is, Pinto, people just can't keep up with Truth because they get stuck in the past and the Truth is always changing, evolving, like the eternal lotus, or the Chevy Malibu. Oneness is unity, twoness is company, and threeness is a crowd. Therefore I have moved on with the mobile and evolving Truth to believe in the greatness of the appendectomy. That is, truth once was One, but a small part of it got really sore, like puffy and inflamed and stuff, and had to be removed. That part is us. Amen.

I don't know. If you think about it logically, the handcuffs are next. Then the nightstick.

DH, it was the (mis)understood intentions which "hurt" WG, as I read it. If somebody had stepped on her toe, the pain is real enough, whether it was intentional or not. But there is a whole category of pain rooted in the other person's intentions. Perceived insults, presumed slights. The pain is there until false perceptions are explained away by the real truth. How many sitcoms have been written about that scenario? Once the "injured" party understands, there is no more injury. The circumstances were misunderstood, words misconstrued, injury imaginary. There, there. All better. I for one think WG's description of the PFAL poster, all framed and nice, is just a little too sentimental for cult-ware. Had it been me, I'd have sold it as a nice frame, with a PFAL poster left over from my days in the cult. I'd sell it for $65, but you could have it for $55 if you take the poster with it. Therein, I express proper contempt for the contemptible property, while alerting anyone who might be interested in the damn poster.

Mark S, rare is the occasion when you are not confused. The more confused you are, the more certain of your opinions. DaddyHoundog, I reject your premise. Watered Garden took offense, and I mean took it, where none was intended. The only true offense is Vic Wierwille, the Way Monstrosity, and its chief propaganda tool, Power For Abundant Living. This question makes no sense to me. What are you asking?

You don't believe it because a larger belief system won't even allow you to consider it. That doesn't make you an idiot. But saying you must be an idiot could become a self-fulfilling observation. Was that a "positive confession?" Before, you were only talking about people's experience in a positive light. Now you're talking about Wierwille's class. Knowing all you do about Vic Wierwille, can you possibly believe PFAL was uncorrupted by his own craven ambitions? You really think the contents remained pure, objective, clear as spring water, free of and from his fondest vices? If so, you haven't given it that much thought. He thought a lot more about pu&&y than preaching, and it's clear which he took more seriously. No? What do you think Jesus would say, Jonny? What would Jesus say to Vic Wierwille as the timid girl steps into the bus for the first time, and Vic is standing there in nothing but an open bathrobe? Jesus who kicked over the moneychangers' tables. Jesus who warned those who might harm children. Jesus who stood between a woman and a mob bent on stoning her. What would he say to Vic, Jonny? As the young girl believer, maybe in the Corps, maybe a WOW, stepped aboard because she'd been "invited." "Oh, Doctor, what a wonderful class. Nice bus, man. See ya." I don't think so. Of course he had "no friends when it came to the Word." The man used the Word like any sociopath might use it - he used the Word in order to use people. He had no friends because he had no conscience. Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't really care.

You're comparing apples with applecarts, Jonny. This has nothing to do with anyone's personal experience during their stay at Way World. Everyone had good experiences from time to time. I did. Even those who got the worst of it probably did. It has to do with what the ministry represented, and what it did. I'm compelled to resort to the trusty, if hackneyed, nazi analogy. There were always good Germans, even during WWII, and many of them were caught up in their nation's war. Does their goodness justify the nation's evil? Of course not. Do they invest their memories of friendship, personal courage, honor and so on, in each other, or in nazi memorabilia? TWI wasn't the Third Reich, of course, but the tired example serves to illustrate my point. PFAL was the tool of a cult. It was a tightly scripted, scrupulously controlled vehicle for the induction and indoctrination of... us. It didn't happen over night. It was the product of trial and error, and VPW's intuitive understanding of what draws people into a cause. A PFAL poster can bring back good memories, running classes with people we loved, the fellowship of great "believers," believing what we did was first and foremost the will of God. But did God really want so many people seeking truth to be so evilly served? Neither of us thinks so. Did God want a bunch of bums, like Vic Wierwille, the trustees, many of the leaders, to take cynical advantage of people who sought and loved Him, like the sons of Eli in the OT? Neither of us thinks so. PFAL was The Way International's principal tool. Anything good about TWI, we brought it there, and when we left, it left with us. What good we took from it, we might have taken from any other place where the bible was studied and believed by people, and without Vic Wierwille's poison. So now we've left. Do we still celebrate "PFAL?" I hope not, but if so, we don't get it yet. -most recently edited for content-

Trying to picture Donna wearing the aviator shades hooked in the open collar. Maybe with the leather chaps and a motorcycle jacket. "Pull over Miss Rosalie, I believe you were doing 105." "Wah, Offisuh Donna, ah don't buhleave ah was goin' more than 99, but maybe y'all bettah frisk me, just in case ah have a concealed weapon." "Miss Rosalie, I wouldn't be doin' my sworn duty lessin' I did. Please remove your garments." "Wah Offisuh Donna, suppose ah catch a chill?" "You should have thought of that before you became a menace to society, Miss Rosalie. Up against the wall, and spread em!" "Hee hee hee hee hee...." -- If sunglasses could talk, what a tale they might tell.

Not often. Whenever I get my hopes up, somebody else credits TWI with their answered prayers.

Isn't that the root of it? The title, "Power For Abundant Living," disguised its biblical content to appeal to the human potential movement (or so it might appear), a bible class masquerading as a positive thinking class. But what was it really? A positive thinking class, masqerading as a bible class, masquerading as a positive thinking class. As many have amply demonstrated, PFAL sent Jesus to the back of the bus. Didn't it? It sure as hell did. VPW was front and center, and the class was our induction to Way World, VP World. It was positively conditioning, masquerading as positive "believing," a.k.a., positive thinking. Scripture was the vehicle, not the payload. If slapping John 10:10 at the bottom makes it all real for you, you're easily impressed. Once upon a time, we all were.

An impressive, if somewhat impenetrable, body of work, jkboehm. Can you put Hyde's message into your own concise [brief, cogent, lucid, un-bracketed] post, for those of us with acute attention deficit? The most resonant point for me might be called "commitment breeds commitment." I forget which point it was, and can't find it now. There were those individuals in TWI whose commitment made my own far stronger. I can't deny it. I think it indicates why TWI disintegrated. The original leaders were steely in their dedication. It was fresh, they were hell-bent on building TWI. Followers were drawn by their example. In time they grew lazy, gave in to temptations. Newer "leadership" was immature and self-serving, or in other words, Way Corps. The less possessed of self-discipline they became, the more disciplinarian toward others. Followers remained faithful imitators, shifting priorities self-ward as their leaders did, increasingly alienated by the heavy-handed authorities ordained by "Trustees" to rule over them. Had Vic Wierwille's ministry been legitimate, it would have been a shame. But the reverse was true. The disintegration of discipline at the top gave us the pause, and the permission, to see things clearly, maybe for the first time in quite a while.

WG, it's not about you. It's about The Way International and it's foundation, the PFAL class, in which lies and distortions were mixed with dubious scriptural interpretation to exploit and control Christian believers. I don't mind if you sell it. I don't mind if you have fond memories. I don't mind if you liked the class. In fact, I don't mind if you post it here for sale. I hope you don't mind if the poster reminds me of a decade of bullsh!t, that began with PFAL. Shoot, now I'm all sentimental. This isn't really sarcasm. It's lame parody, maybe. And it's not directed at you. I have nothing against you. You might ask yourself why a PFAL poster belongs in a frame, unless it's the binding of a dart board, and why you would offer it for sale at the Greasespot Cafe, of all places, as if it were some kind of heirloom, an object of fondness and nostalgia. It isn't me being unsympathetic, WG. It's you. You forget where you are. Even so, it's not about you. Really. -- dmiller, art for art's sake? No matter the subject? You don't believe that, do you? Think it over.

Boinnnng... Boing, boing... Boing, ba ba, boing, ba-boing, boing, ba-ba-ba boing, boing, boing, ba-boing, ba-boing, ba-boing, bababababababa boinnnnnnnnggggg... Boing, boing... Boing, ba ba, boing, ba-boing, boing, ba-ba-ba boing, boing, boing, ba-boing, ba-boing, ba-boing, bababababababa boinnnnnnnnggggg... Boing, boing... Boing, ba ba, boing, ba-boing, boing, ba-ba-ba boing, boing, boing, ba-boing, ba-boing, ba-boing, bababababababa boinnnnnnnnggggg... "The sound of two dozen Official, Commemorative V.P. Peepers, rolling off the Way Bookstore display counter, bouncing across the floor." Just wanted to share that.

I think there's a point of no return, after which you are trapped by your commitment to the lie. Not that you think it's a lie. You don't. Just the opposite. You don't see it clearly, but you really, really believe it's true. So when that lie (Vic Wierwille's false doctrines, for instance) becomes the exalted TRUTH, anything which contradicts it must be a lie. And if the circumstances of your life contradict exalted TRUTH, then your life is a lie. What does that mean? I don't know, but it's depressing.

No, really! I'd love to find a VPW commemorative shot glass too. Drambuie stains would triple the price. Did the bookstore ever sell replicas of Vic's glass eye? I'm sure they did. WG, got any of those? Now there would be a collectable. Hello, eBAY! I'd list it under the voodoo/evil eye category. Or hooky-pook, maybe. Jeepers creepers, bid on these peepers! Just a thought.

Perfect timing! I was just thinking how great it would be to put a class together, for old time's sake.

This discussion is a little too abstract for me. Seems like the concept has been defined - "cognitive dissonance" - when what you believe doesn't "line up" with what you perceive. Isn't that the definition of faith? Isn't that what Naaman did, washing 7 times? Isn't that what Moses did, walking into the Red Sea? And what about the "fiery furnace," Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego? So when is cognitive dissonance a bad thing? a. When it's in the service of man rather than God (you're being lied to, in other words) b. When you walk into the waves and the waters don't part (you're deceiving yourself, in other words) So what is it, really? Seems to me it's the subordination of your ability to think rationally, to your feelings. It's your rational mind, strapped to a gurney, bound, and gagged by your feelings, to attain some kind of internal, emotional equilibrium, to feel "right." Feeling right often has little or nothing to do with feeling good. So how did this serve The Way International? How did TWI get followers to stop thinking and serve their feelings, and how did it come to dictate those feelings?

From Wikipedia: IVR Last modified: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 Short for interactive voice response, a telephony technology in which someone uses a touch-tone telephone to interact with a database to acquire information from or enter data into the database. IVR technology does not require human interaction over the telephone as the user's interaction with the database is predetermined by what the IVR system will allow the user access to. For example, banks and credit card companies use IVR systems so that their customers can receive up-to-date account information instantly and easily without having to speak directly to a person. IVR technology is also used to gather information, as in the case of telephone surveys in which the user is prompted to answer questions by pushing the numbers on a touch-tone telephone.

A little early for the cherry blossoms, George? Maybe not.

Like bookends, aren't they? They do evoke a certain stereotype.

I wish the list were longer but it probably will be eventually. http://www.paulenglish.com/ivr/ Check it out.

Brokeback Mountain is a disgusting, vile, revolting, nauseating piece of devilish trash, which is why I refuse to see it, read about it, hear about it, or know anything about it. I know everything I need to know - nothing at all. It's more sanctified to be ignorant than to be stupid, and that's my motto.