GeorgeStGeorge

I'm wondering if jsamuel didn't mean this as tongue-in-cheek? --> I find it hard to believe (s)he's serious. --> George

You're not a big meanie, Rascal, though I think you are making a logical fallacy in your understanding of Luke 17:3,4. "If A then B" does NOT imply "If not A then not B." "If he repent, forgive him" does not imply "If he repents not, forgive him not." The only commandment, as it were, is that if he repents, you MUST forgive him. Note that Mark 11:25,26 state that Jesus's followers were to forgive IF THEY HAD OUGHT (SOMETHING)AGAINST ANY. In fact, jesus told them that if they did not forgive, neither would God forgive them! It's a little better in the Grace Administration, where we are told to forgive BECAUSE we've been forgiven (Eph. 4:32). As has been pointed out by others, it does the forgiver good to forgive. This is NOT absolution. It's not denying that wrong was done. It doesn't mean you have to be buddies with those that have hurt you. It does mean that you're bigger than the pain. God bless, George

You guys are scaring me! :D--> George

Though that wasn't my point, Ex10, I should point out that Job's "friends" and the self-appointed prophet, Elihu, did most of the abusing. I took your previous comment to be more general in nature. Sorry if I didn't interpret it in light of the full context. George

I might point out Acts 5:14-16. It's clear that the sick who were brought to Peter in v.15 were of the multitude of believers. It's also possible (though I can't say for certain) that those "vexed with unclean spirits" in v.16 were also believers. George

My notes in bold

Thanks for the note, Raf. I looked at my Greek text, but I didn't pay attention to the article (a mistake I don't usually make). Indeed, "THE faith" would tend to substantiate the idea that "the faith" is put by metonomy for Jesus Christ, though it could also be argued that "THE faith" would mean the one, correct faith, which still would come to each of us individually. George

1. Believe it. 2. Believe it. 3. Believe it. To dmiller, LCM explained this. The devil was well aware of the promise of the seed of the woman crushing his seed. He was not able to copy the Christian new birth, of course, but was able to mimic natural seed. This spiritual "seed" left his "children" open to posession at any time. Having committed the unforgivable sin, his children would never turn to the true God. 4. Believe it, with qualifications. Can a Christian get possessed? Yes. Does this mean the devil spirit "takes over" the holy spirit? I've never heard it put that way, and I would not believe it. A possessed Christian can still operate holy spirit. George

Actually, the Book of Job is pretty much ALL ABOUT God's tolerance of evil and abuse, until such time as He could demonstrate His power and goodness. Sadly, in ExC's case (and others'), it seems that the evil and abuse came AFTER the good. At the risk of jump-starting Oldiesman again (and another round of brownies analogies), I don't think it's fair to begrudge others the learning or blessing they may have received in TWI. I really do wish it could have been all "sweetness and light." I pray for all of you who have opened your hearts, not that you would change your opinions of TWI (which would mean ignoring your own experiences), but that you can all be fully healed from the pain. George

That's an interesting alternative, although the context seems to indicate a general condition of mankind before Christ's appearance, rather than an individual state prior to acceptance of Christ. Still, v.27 does refer to baptism, which is an individual event, not a collective one. It merits further study. George

I finally had Galatians 3:23 explained to me in a way that makes sense. "But before FAITH came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the FAITH which should afterwards be revealed." The word faith is an occurence of the figure of speech metonomy whereby "faith" is put for the subject of true faith (or believing, if you will), Jesus Christ. It's not some special "faith" that hadn't come yet, it was Christ who was yet to appear. The same figure is used in v.25 (and perhaps v.24, though I think here that "faith" actuallly means the right believing that Christ made available). George

This thread could go on forever. I haven't posted anything lately because it's taken all my free time just to catch up! :)--> Speaking FOR MYSELF, what I believe from TWI (PFAL, et al.), I believe, not becuse VPW or any of the others was such a charmer, but because it makes sense to me and fits with the Bible. What I do not believe from TWI, I do not believe, not because VPW or the others were stinkers, but because it either doesn't make sense or contradicts the Bible. I, personally, have not been so injured that I look back at my TWI years with disgust. Neither do I know anyone personally who has been so injured. But that doesn't mean that there aren't those out there who WERE so injured. I grieve for you who were. But, as should be obvious by now, there are those who still hold much (or all?) that they learned from TWI in high esteem. They should not be considered "ignorant" or "blinded" for that. Neither should those who consider the balance (or all?) of their TWI experience as loss. We all have different experiences and should respect each other in that light. If we can't "call the game," at least play nice. George

A "boot" is a nickname for a new military recruit (in boot camp). You just need to interpret a word according to its LCM usage! ;)--> George

That's swell, Exie; but if you don't care about the Bible, why do you believe God had a Son? --> George

Man, this one is popular! Six people jumped in while I was writing my last post! THIS one will probably wind up on p.5! George

Geo: For that matter, if there is no God, where does "free will" enter in? We're all just a bunch of molecules following laws of physics "from the foundation of the world." Even my typing this was determined by the Big Bang, or colliding universes, or whatever. George

Oldies, Hopefully, when you consider her words, you'll come to realize that CW was REALLY HURT. I know that no one of my personal acquaintances in TWI endured what some of the GSers have. I expect that that's been your experience, too. But I have no reason to doubt the truth of the accusations, because no one here has anything to gain by lying. Keep the Word that you've been taught. Keep the memories of good times in fellowship. But don't dismiss those who do not. What would TWI have to have done to you to make you renounce it all? That's what happened to CW and the others. See it from that perspective, and have some compassion. It doesn't mean you'll "lose" this debate. Some of the posts at GS break my heart. :(--> George

RG, It's Ex. 32:7-14. It's reminiscent of two parents arguing over a misbehaving child. ("Do you know what YOUR son did today?") :)--> George

Prov. 10:22 George

Let's see if I can do this without resorting to another parable... Oldies' original question, "Should people renounce their beliefs because of other people's (i.e.,the teacher's) sins," has devolved into two: "Were you positively impacted by what you learned (doctrine, if not practice) in TWI?" and "Was VPW an a-hole?" It's quite possible, of course, to answer Yes to both questions. I think I would agree with Oakspear's comment "The sins themselves did not invalidate anything he taught, but they provided an impetus to look at them a little more closely. Wierwille's sins did not make his teaching void in my mind, but they did cause me to reject taking his word on anything. If it was truth I'd find out through another source, not just because VP said so." Oldies, just a thought... instead of telling some of the other posters to "get over it," you might try asking some of them how you could help them "overcome it." George

Not that I agree with everything OM says, but I do sympathize. Let me propose a parable: Suppose I were to write out, longhand, a verbatim copy of the Gospel of Mark and attempted to pass it off as my own account of the life of Jesus Christ. Obviously, I would be a liar. There might be a plethora of other sins and faults of which I could be guilty, as well. But anyone reading "my" account of Jesus's life would have as accurate a version as Mark's gospel. No matter how evil I may be, the Word is still the Word, and will bless those who believe it. Now, how much of VP's doctrine is accurate interpretation is obviously the subject of much debate, but whatever he got right will bless those who believe it. George

I agree with all of you. No, seriously, I believe that there was a difference, not at headquarters but out on the field. Maybe VP did want the military obedience that LCM demanded, but it never showed to the "rank and file," so we went merrily on our ways, fellowshipping and preaching the Word. Oakspear's comment that it was the followers-to-leaders ratio that kept things light is interesting, but I think he puts the cart before the horse. If LCM hadn't gotten so hardnosed, there might still be hundreds of fellowships, even branches, run by non-Corps. I learned a lot from VP's WORDS. Heck, I even learned some good stuff from LCM, when he wasn't ranting about warfare on the moon or microwaves; but I sure enjoyed the warmth of fellowship more in the earlier days. That's what separates TWI-1 from TWI-2, to me. George

SelahV, It's easy to blame God or oneself when bad things happen. Sadly, a lot of TWI teaching made one feel that misfortune was due to lack of believing or lack of fellowship. But then, look at Stephen: he was full of the spirit, boldly preaching the gospel, and receiving a vision of Jesus Christ while he was stoned to death! Not believing? Hardly! Out of fellowship? No way! We live in a world still primarily run by the Devil, and so things don't often go as they should. (Eccl. 9:11,12) Nonetheless, God is still greater, and will give you the deliverance if you let Him. Sometimes, this takes a lot of patience. I'll be praying for you, as well. George P.S.: You might consider posting your needs in the "Prayer Room."

sons??? Hmmm, maybe there's something we don't know . . . Maybe that's why we haven't heard from JP lately. :D--> George