GeorgeStGeorge

Let me elaborate. By "Adam," I mean before the fall. Adam WAS righteous by creation; all he (and Eve) had to do was not screw it up. They enjoyed God's promises by believing to stay in fellowship with Him. They did not look forward to a redeemer, because they didn't need one. After the fall, Adam and the patriarchs received revelation on an individual basis. They enjoyed God's promises by acting on the revelation. They were aware of the promised redeemer; but if that knowledge was essential to their righteousness, it's not stated in the Bible. Israel (I mean, after Sinai) had a specific, codified revelation from God detailing what He required of them. They enjoyed God's promises when they DID the law. God's grace covered for them, by allowing them to perform sacrifices to gain His forgiveness. They had a fuller understanding of the redeemer than most, if not all, of the people had during the patriarchal period; but, again, their righteousness was not dependent on it. After Pentecost, God's promises are enjoyed by believing in the lordship and resurrection of that redeemer. The old law was supplanted with one: love one another (thereby showing one's love for God, as well). The epistles tell us how to do this; and, of course, Jesus's life, as recorded in the gospels, is the perfect example of living in love. Indeed, Christ died for all; but the rules have changed from time to time, even within "this present, evil age." George

Belle and Song, I wasn't clear. I haven't spoken to anyone in my old twig in years. I was referring to others I know in other parts of the country who are still "in." George

Let me jump into the fray here. Deut. 6:25 "And it shall be our (Israel's) righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He hath commanded us." Rom. 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Clearly, two different conditions for righteousness. Of course, no one could do all the commandments. (Rom. 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.") So Israel had to offer sacrifices, according to the law, which demonstrated their reliance on God's grace to forgive their sins. As stated in Hebrews, their sacrifices were a foreshadowing of Christ's sacrifice. That's not the same as saying that Israel was saved by faith in Jesus Christ, as alfakat suggests with his parenthetical insertion, "Hebrews 11 makes it quite plain that faith(in and upon Christ) unites *all* "believers" from Abel all the way through Jesus' first appearance and ministry and all the way up to today." It IS fair to say that faith in God's promises unites believers from the beginning, but the application of that belief was different for Adam, the patriarchs, Israel, and the Christian church. George

Incidentally, all my recent conversations with those still in The Way have been quite pleasant, though I think, sadly, that it's because they've all been screwed over enough to be compassionate. --> George

Now, Satori, how about giving us the EXPANDED version, according to usage? :D--> George

Raf, "The Twelve Pains of Christmas" gets a little airtime on the oldies station here. I think it's my favorite, too, although "Walking in Women's Underwear" (to the tune of "Winter Wonderland") is close. George :D-->

They were in Houston several years ago, but I haven't seen or spoken with them in over ten years. I don't think they're still around here. Sorry. George

Accepted! :)--> George

Actually, a cubit is the length from a man's elbow to his figertips, usually given as about 18 inches; an a span is the distance between the tip of the thumb and the tip of the pinky when the fingers are separated as much as possible, usually given as nine inches. So Goliath would be about 9'9", still quite large. (Of course a cubit and a span would both be larger on someone that tall -- and Goliath DID have six fingers on his hand! ;)-->) George

Valerie, Did you ever find Sherry? George

Eagle, As I recall, it was you who started this thread by asking what we believe. I'm not sure it's accurate to say that I WANT to believe that the Devil has children, just that my reading of the scriptures convince me of it. As is obvious from this thread, I'm NOT the only one who believes it. You, too, may believe what YOU choose to. George

The pay was lousy, but the perks were GREAT! George

I can't argue with that! :)--> George

I wonder how many surrounding states they need to get enough Corps? Even including "Corps Grads," there can't be that many left in Texas! :D--> --> George

I AM willing to admit that we're not getting anywhere, but I didn't ask you to prove a negative, just show evidence for it. There are plenty of negative statements in the Bible: "God is not a man, that He should lie"; "No man hath seen God at any time"; "I am THE LORD, I change not"; etc. I, and others, have shown several scriptures referring to the Devil's children, his sons, and his seed. Do I have a scripture that says, "The Devil is the father of anyone who commits the unforgiveable sin"? No, any more than I have one that says, "God is the Father of anyone who confesses Jesus as lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead." Sometimes it means putting scriptures together. George

Maybe if you put the beers in "Big Gulp" tumblers? :D--> George

I admit I haven't taken out my concordance to look up all the uses of "tree." If it turns out that in every instance that the word refers to a literal tree (or at least part of one, as in "Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"), I would have to conclude that the "Tree of Life" and the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" were actual trees. In EVERY instance outside of Gen. 3:15, "seed" refers literally to seed or figuratively to progeny (the result of seed). That's why I say that you need a better reason, to conclude that it means something else in Gen. 3:15, than that you don't want it to mean that. George

What evidence? Where does it say in the Bible that the Devil can't have children? George

I imagine that "tree" has several figurative usages in the Old Testament. The only figurative usage of "seed" that I can find is progeny. If you believe that the word "seed" in Genesis 3 means something else, you'll have to back it up with more than personal preference. George

Actually, a better analogy would be: When a bill is due, (you must) pay it. Before a bill is due, pay it if you want to. George

An interesting sidelight: in Eph. 3:2, the word endings (in Greek) make it clear that it was GRACE that was given to Paul, not a DISPENSATION. (See also vv. 7,8.) On the other hand, in Col. 1:25, "given" agrees with "dispensation." George

Fine. Be that way! ;)--> George

Let's not forget bema, which in the Wierwille years was only a place of rewards. (I guess that Jesus DID get a "crown" at Pilate's bema!) Interestingly, Martindale corrected this years later. George

Indeed, that was my point. Incidentally, the CONTRAPOSITIVE of the original statement would be "If you don't forgive him, he hasn't repented." This IS logically equivalent to the original statement. (If repentance demands forgiveness, then lack of forgiveness requires lack of repentance.) But, neither the inverse nor the converse follow from this. So, If he repents, FORGIVE. If he doesn't repent, forgive if you want to! George

Since year2027 has started a "seed of the serpent" thread in the Doctrinal forum, I suggest that further discussion on this topic be directed there. George