spectrum49

Thanks waysider! You just reminded me of "before I got in the word". Perhaps this is a tangent to the topic, but what the heck? As a young child I remember looking at the stars at night and somehow realized space must go forever. That is when I decided there must be "something in control". I didn't even care to call it "GOD". (or "creative universalism", either! LOL) But I do now, 'cause you gotta call it SOMETHING - so what the heck - Call it GOD. I used to try and speak with this "entity", but without result. I never actually heard any audible response. My parents used to send me off on a bus to church. (They didn't attend themselves, so it was a nice way to get rid of me for a bit!) I can't remember anything they taught. Maybe I got born again - I just don't know. I was much too young. But I'll tell you what! When I had a NEED, this God came through! I didn't "bug him" often, thinking he was busy enough with everybody else on the planet, so I only asked for stuff in an emergency situation. Once, when I was about 16 my younger brother had gotten so far into drugs that the people he was hanging with had guns - and I think they may have been connected with organized crime. I was scared for my brother, who lived with mother 200 miles away. I lived with dad. (They had divorced when I was 5.) I went outside and looked up at the stars and simply asked for help for my brother. Only 3 days later did we get a call from him. It seems that he was at a party, and friends of friends were there. He said he was talking to this new guy. (Maybe it was an angel, I don't know for sure.) Anyway, he said the way this guy was talking about the Army sounded so appealing that he had actually gone and signed up. HMMM - I thought! I went outside, looked up and thanked this "God". He eventually became a Sgt Major and retired after 30 years with a nice pension! (He should give me some of that - LOL!) When I was 19, my mother had divorced my step-father and (having no place to live) decided to voluntarily commit herself to the State Mental Instuitution as a "ward of the state". Dumb move, huh? She wasn't crazy, but every time I visited her she got worse and worse. They had filled her with so many drugs - thorazine, stellazine, elerill, melerill - that she was slowly losing her mind. When enough was enough - I think I was about 21, she had gotten so bad that sometimes she could hardly even remember who I was! So I went "to the stars" again. And again - 3 days later she called and said she had decided to check herself out. I am glad she had originally done this voluntarily so she always had the option to leave! I thanked God again. She was fine in a month or so - all back to normal! She had found a place to stay, and community work to do to suppliment her social-security. I had learned to trust this God because He always came through so quickly! (There were other occasions I won't go into.) But it seemed that I was always asking for stuff for OTHERS. I thought it greedy to ask for stuff for myself. At 22, I had joined the Air Force. I was transferred a few times, and my mother had moved. We had gotten lost from each other. I was coming up on Christmas leave and wanted to see her so badly! So I prayed again outside one night, but I was crying and was somehow not confident, as when I asked for stuff for everybody else. The next day I went to the base chaplain - he was enouraging. Again - 3 days later, I got a letter from her she had written some time ago. It had about 7 or 8 postmarks on it. It was so messed up - stuff crossed off and new stuff replaced EVERYWHERE. You could barely ready my name on it any more! But somehow, it had gotten to me in time. Less than a week later I was on leave at her NEW PLACE! Not too long after that in 1975 TWI sucked me in. I can't say they ever improved upon how I prayed and got answers. I learned a bit about research - and that was enough to get me the HECK OUT in 2008. I had learned some things on my own that they were not interested in - so I left! I still ask for things and I still get them. And it's better now, for I have learned God is never too busy for anyone or anything. I ask for stuff "big" and "small" - why not? SPEC :)

DARN IT ALL MARK! I read your 12-page commentary. For the most part, it was very well done! However, I am astounded that you entirely missed the point that it is THE BELIEVER who "wills" to operate these! I quote from your article: Finally, there is only one God who not only gives, but determines. The last words of verse 11 state “and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines” (NIV). We see in this verse a giver, who we already know from the scriptures is God, and a receiver who weknow is man. Now of the two whom do you think determines? “As he (God) determines” also fits with the immediate context of this chapter. With all your wonderful knowledge and experience of using Greek lexicons, concordances, etc, (as shown in your 12-page treatise) I am truly AMAZED that you could still say it is God who determines what each believer operates - WHETHER HE BELIEVES OR NOT! How could you possibly entirely miss the point I made about IDIOS, (his own), translated erroneously as "severally" in 1Co 12:11? With all your research experience, don't you see that the phrase "dividing to every man severally as he will" correctly translates into dividing to "every man his own as he will"? Why did you choose to focus solely on the NIV version "and he gives them (the manifestation of the spirit) to each one, just as he determines"? You even know yourself that the New International Version is NOT RENDERED faithfully from the Critical Greek Texts, but "paraphrased throughout", according to what the translators THOUGHT IT MEANT! And isn't that a prime example of PRIVATE (idios) INTERPRETATION, which is contrary to the very first thing God would have us to know? I am astounded at you. I said at the beginning of my "long post" that I had done this "once and for all." I suppose you "chimed in" to make me go back on my words - for here I am - explaining the same points all over again! I am sure you are very knowledgeable of the scriptures. In that event, let me remind you sir: This post is your "second admonition"... SPEC :) PS: I was also a personal friend of Peter J. Wade as well (many years ago). I do not believe even he would concur with your idea of God making us to be like "puppets on a string"!

This is RIGHT ON "in my book", soul searcher! Wisdom is the very foundation of beginning to learn and apply the other manifestations - IT IS KEY! Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. SPEC :)

I remember that well, Waysider. And didn't LCM take it to a WHOLE OTHER LEVEL when he expounded (in the "new class", "The Way of Abundance and Power" - 1995) about the sin really being Eve in a lesbian relationship with the serpent, who had taken on the "form of a woman"! He even found some related artwork ("Temptation and Fall", by Miche) to "prove his point": [Click to enlarge] Perhaps LCM had "carnal knowledge" (LOL) of what may have been going on between his wife Donna and the current "president" (RFR), and was making some attempt at reproof. (?) SPEC :)

You'd be surprised what you can see about science, evolution and "the ice age" from the Bible. I have a book coming out soon. (My first!) It will be called, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents". Although you probably won't agree with it totally, many things you have brought up are addressed and explained logically. It should be ready for release around November. SPEC :) PS: And why did you SIDESTEP the issue at hand? I asked you to comment on: "Do they (parents) know ahead of time that the children will sometimes disobey? Are they instructing their kids to "set them up" or to keep them on "the right track", so they may grow up safe and healthy?" Did you avoid this because it makes "too damn much sense"? Maybe perhaps because you don't have a proper and logical response? In an "honest debate", you STICK TO THE ITEM AT HAND - not just go "somewhere else" and start a new "argument" while the other is still there! You said yourself (in your signature): The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning. Proverbs 14:6 (NIV) Sounds to me like you may be a "mocker".

Forgive me soul searcher, but you almost sound like you believe God intentionally set man up "for a fall". Do you suppose the same thing is true when wise and mature parents instruct their children? Do they know ahead of time that the children will sometimes disobey? Are they instructing their kids to "set them up" or to keep them on "the right track", so they may grow up safe and healthy? SPEC :)

Please forgive the length of this post, but I considered it important enough to share what I have on the manifestations (of the gift of holy spirit) once and for all - in detail... When were born physically, the seed contained all that we needed. All the potential for what we were to become was inherent in the seed from our father (and in what the mother contributed as well). After being born we were nourished with food, etc, and grew. The new birth is just like that. All that we need for our spiritual life is contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] from God. We receive the one gift of holy spirit which alone carries with it all the potential for living spiritually. (I call this our "spiritual DNA".) There has been literally no end of confusion among many Christians by supposing we need to receive something extra for our spiritual life – they erroneously call these "the gifts of the spirit". We shall see that we already have all of these to begin with – and that God calls these manifestations, not gifts. To see this we will be looking very closely at 1Co 12: 1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual [text is pneumatikos – spiritual matters, things of the spirit], gifts [the word gifts is not in the text] brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Now, spiritual matters do include gifts, but not all spiritual matters are gifts. God has devoted three entire chapters (1Co 12-14) to cover the subject of spiritual matters. We see the context come to a close in the following verse: 1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. So we see that God started by saying he doesn’t want us to be ignorant concerning spiritual matters, and concluded by saying that if anybody doesn’t want to hear about it, then just leave him alone – let him be ignorant. Christian teachers are not to force feed anyone. If someone is hungry and asks, then we feed him until he says he has had enough to eat – this is the only polite way to be! 1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. God continues to instruct the Corinthians about some spiritual matters. Then in verse 4 He mentions the word gifts – [Greek is charisma – from this we get our English word charismatic, meaning gifted.] We must watch the context very closely to look for any changes. Now we are talking about gifts (which are included within spiritual matters). Next, we will see about administrations and operations, which are also spiritual matters: 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. Now, in the next verse, watch how it changes! 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Notice we have now changed the context from gifts and administrations and operations to the manifestation of the spirit. It is the Greek word phanerosis, not charisma (gift)! And it says, but the manifestation. This word but sets this in stark contrast to that which preceded. It goes on to say that this is given to every man. This cannot mean that everyone on the planet has it! We must remember that in the context God is talking to "brethren" (verse 1). Brothers have the same father. God is talking to his children; they are the ones which have the ability to manifest this spirit. The others do not even have it to begin with. So, it says the manifestation of the spirit – that means all of it – anything which may be manifested (or evidenced) by way of the spirit. One final (but very, very important) note on this verse: The purpose of the (entire) manifestation of this spirit (given to all of God’s kids) is to profit withal… see it again: 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. This means that the overall purpose is for every man (and collectively, the entire body of Christ as well) to profit all the way through, so that all the manifestation is evidenced – not just a part of it. Now comes the tricky part. Most Christians are taught that the verses following are talking about individuals (for to one…to another…to another). How can God say that all the manifestation is given to every man, and then turn right around and say that one piece is given to one man and another piece to another man, etc? Well, he doesn’t! In grammar, the phrase to prophet withal is an infinitive phrase. The words which follow must connect with this phrase to further elaborate on it. This is what verses 8-10 do. God has structured this very wonderfully. First, in verse 7 he makes it plain that every man (believer) may bring forth (all) the manifestation of the (gift of) spirit, so that he may make full use of it in every way – to profit withal – all the way through. Having said that, he now breaks the entire manifestation up into its nine separate categories. Each one of these profits a little by itself; and what you have when you put them all together is to profit withal – by manifesting all of them! Then in verse 11, God brings the context right back to where he started in verse 7, putting them all back together again and telling us more about it as a whole unit again. In fact, verse 11 has some very illuminating truth in it as well! 1Co 12:8 For [the reason why we can profit withal is:] to one [one way to profit a little] is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [more profit] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another [even further profit] faith by the same Spirit; to another [even more!] the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another [and more] the working of miracles; to another [and more] prophecy; to another [getting bored?—ha ha] discerning of spirits; to another [even more profit] divers kinds of tongues; to another [lastly] the interpretation of tongues: [now we have it all!] 11 But all these… A note of explanation is due about one of these, however. You may have noticed that the manifestation of healings is also called a gift (gifts of healings). This is simply because it is the only one of these which is also a gift. In the first (or natural) birth, God graciously endowed our physical bodies with the ability to heal themselves. A doctor might reset a broken bone, but it is self-mending. The same is true with cuts, scrapes, and a host of other things. We may provide medications, salves, ointments, and bandages, etc, but the healing process itself has been built in. The body of Christ is no different. God has built this into our new birth. Basically, in order to manifest this one, a person has to operate it by asking God if a gift is there to have. If it is, and the recipient is believing for it, then it will be manifested (come into concretion in the senses realm). Such was the case in Act 3:6: Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. Spiritually, Peter had asked God if there was a gift for the lame man, and there was. We know he received this gift of healing from God when he said "such as I have give I thee". He received this gift from God and gave it to the believing man and he was healed. Healing is always a gift – if it is there, then fine – if not, God has a reason. I should say, however, one is usually available when the receiver is truly believing for it. Moving on now… 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The above verse requires quite a bit of explanation in light of how it has been portrayed of late; and the trend is getting worse and worse with each new translation that comes along! We just saw how God has made all of these available to every man so he can operate this gift to its full extent, profiting in every category. But ministers and teachers the world over have tried to make this verse sound as if God picks and chooses who gets what. And for the most part, it usually winds up that their students do not believe sufficiently enough to operate any of them! Those that are blessed enough to have one or the other are many times so blessed and thankful that to them it might seem greedy to have more of them, supposing that their fellow believers would have those ones, and together somehow they could enjoy all of them as a group. Surely, it does work this way in practice. Many people do have their specialties and long suits among these, and many times deliverance comes to people when Christians operate together as a team, but to deny a Christian his full potential by teaching wrongly is a pitiful shame! The truth is, God wants each of his children to enjoy operating all of these, while the devil wants just the opposite. If he can talk Christians out of believing they have all of this power, then that’s just less worry for him that every one of God’s kids just might manifest enough to stomp all over him and his host of devil-spirit helpers! In my humble opinion, 1Co 12:11 has been translated horribly in many versions. For your enlightenment, below are some of the renderings. Please forgive me for the long list; I merely wanted the reader to see just how rampantly out of control this verse has become over the years. It is difficult to find any new version these days which is rendered accurately, and it appears that many of them just make it up as they go, text or not! Only the first two are actually faithful to the text. (Do take note of the intentional capitalization of the pronoun "he" in many of these.): =============================================================== A Comparison of I Corinthians 12:11 among various versions: (AV – 1611 King James) 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (Revised Standard) 11 All these are inspired by one the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. (Living Bible) 11 It is the same and only Holy Spirit who gives all these gifts and powers, deciding which each one of us should have. (GWV – God’s Word to the Nations) 11 There is only one Spirit who does all these things by giving what God wants to give to each person. (Weymouth) 11 But these results are all brought about by one and the same Spirit, who bestows His gifts upon each of us in accordance with His own will. (New International Version) 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (New American Standard Bible) 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (Amplified Bible) 11 All these [gifts, achievements, abilities] are inspired and brought to pass by one and the same [Holy] Spirit, Who apportions to each person individually [exactly] as He chooses. (New Living Translation) 11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have. (Contemporary English Version) 11 But it is the Spirit who does all this and decides which gifts to give to each of us. (New King James Version) 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills. (New Century Version) 11 One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit decides what to give each person. (21st Century King James Version) 11 But all of these that one and the selfsame Spirit worketh, apportioning to every man individually as He will. (Young's Literal Translation) 11 and all these doth work the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each severally as he intendeth. (Holman Christian Standard Bible) 11 But one and the same Spirit is active in all these, distributing to each one as He wills. (New International Reader's Version) 11 All of the gifts are produced by one and the same Spirit. He gives them to each person, just as he decides. (New International Version - UK) 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. (Today's New International Version) 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. (Worldwide English (New Testament)) 11 And the same Spirit gives the power for all these things. He gives each person what he wants to give to them. =============================================================== That was quite a list! After reading all those, one just might wonder if God is really the one who chooses after all, just because there are so many versions which say that. I tell ya what – put a thousand counterfeit dollar bills that all look alike next to just one good bill – and the good bill is still the only true one! Now, we will see exactly what this verse is saying by taking a closer look at it, considering the words I have put in italics: 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. The verb worketh is the Greek word energeo, from which we derive our English word energize, and Spirit is referring to God himself. It is God who provides the energy to bring these to pass in the physical realm. The word dividing simply means distributing. So far, the verse is saying, But all these are energized by the one and selfsame Spirit (God), distributing to every man… As noted earlier, we know every man refers to brethren, the born-again believers. Now comes the interesting phrase, severally as he will Does the pronoun "he" refer to God or to the man? It seems to most people that it could be either one. But we cannot afford to just guess and hope we are correct! That is not doing honest research. If we know just a little about English grammar, we can readily see that it should refer to the man, which is the "closest antecedent" to the pronoun he. However, I have found that this is usually not enough proof for most people because those who actually enjoyed learning about grammar in school seem to be but a few. So we will "dig a bit deeper" to see the truth here… The word severally is the Greek word idios. This word appears over one hundred times in the Greek New Testament, and is usually translated one’s own, his own, her own, its own, etc. Below is an example of this word idios when it was translated private: 2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. Since the word private is idios, the verse might be rendered, …"no prophecy of the scripture is of any one’s own interpretation", which means that we are not to just interpret it however we want to. As the author of the Bible, God has been very diligent to make himself perfectly clear to those who allow the scriptures to speak for themselves, instead of reading into it on their own (idios). We can easily see how the translators were accurate in rendering idios as private here; if it is someone’s private matter, it is essentially his own matter. In fact, we get our English word idiosyncrasy from it, which is "anyone’s own particular or peculiar way of doing things". And again, God does not wish us to interpret his scriptures this way; he said this is the first thing we need to know! Now, back to 1Co 12:11… 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. This is the only verse in the Bible where the translators rendered idios as severally. Personally, I believe it obscures the entire meaning from view. Why weren’t they consistent with the rest of the places where they translated it one’s own, or in this case, his own? Consider what it is really saying now: …dividing to every man his own as he will. The word "he" refers to the man – and one doesn’t even need to be a grammar nut to see that now! And this fits in context with all we have seen from verse 7 on. God had said that "the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit all the way through", making full use of the gift of holy spirit he gave to us. He then broke it up into nine components, showing that each one has its unique profit. And now in verse 11 he has put them all back together as a unit, explaining to us that he will energize each one of these as we will. It is our responsibility and privilege to operate this gift of holy spirit in all of its parts as we will – that is to say, as we desire or as we believe. It is up to us to endeavor to find out about each of these and put them to use. If we don’t, they just won’t happen on their own, for God only energizes them as the man wills. And even for all of this explanation, I am sure there are many who either don’t get it, or will even refuse to because they just cannot let go of what they have been taught already. So just why are these things true? The very next verse tells us! 1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. As we see above, the next verse begins with for, which gives the reason for what he has shown thus far about his children utilizing all of the manifestations – making full use of the his gift of holy spirit. God is now going to explain these things by using the analogy of our human bodies to show us that physical things have been designed very similar to spiritual things, so we can relate them and get some wonderful understanding. In a normal birth a baby has a body and all the physical parts to go with it. (feet, hands, ears, eyes, a nose, etc.) When you read from verse 13 on, you will see that these same parts are also incorporated into the body of Christ as well, in the spiritual sense. Let us not complicate matters. For now, let us keep it simple. Each one of the born-again believers has Christ in him: Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: We have the same ability which Jesus had on Earth! That is why we can do the works that he did (Jn 14:12). He is God’s son, and we are also now God’s children: Beloved, now are we the sons of God…(1Jn 3:2). First, we must realize that each of us is like Christ (spiritually) for we each have Christ in us. Then collectively, we are all part of the spiritual body of Christ as well. If you try to visualize this, it may be a bit confusing. Just remember, it is not a literal fact! God is merely using the human body as an analogy to relate spiritual truths to us in a way in which we can understand. Just as it is necessary to use all of our body parts to live well physically, it is also God’s wish that we learn to utilize these manifestations as well, for they are akin to "spiritual body parts". If someone does not have the use of a leg for instance, we might say he is "physically challenged". Do we want to be considered "spiritually challenged" by not wanting to use all these spiritual body parts? I would hope not! God has made them all available to us by way of the "spiritual DNA" contained in the seed [Greek word is spermo] we received from him. SPEC :)

I have logical reason to believe the "tree of knowledge of good and evil" was exactly what God said it was! People everywhere seem to have misunderstood this tree. (Whether it was symbolic or real, the lesson is still valid - so for the sake of argument, let us suppose for now it was a real tree of some kind.) Even the "serpent" (the devil in disguise) knew what would result from eating fruit of that tree: He said, "You will be as gods, knowing good and evil." (hence, the tree of knowledge of good and evil) But God had commanded Adam not to eat of it, preferring he ate from the “tree of life” instead. Taking shorcuts in life is not always the best thing to do. God would prefer if we learned life's lessons little by little, as we can handle it. We build slowly and carefully, allowing our learning to be based upon previous experiences. The greatest oak trees grow like this - naturally over time! They say "Rome wasn't built in a day." - How true - Well, we aren't supposed to either! Eating of the "tree of life" is like allowing this process of growing to be just as found in nature - we learn life's lessons a little bit at a time, as God allows it for each individual. This works best for us because we are only responsible for a "bit" of knowledge at a time, and how we handle situations is based upon experience. What we don't know is "not held against us". (A good teacher would not even think of giving a calculus test to her first-grade class!) Do we come out of the womb full grown? Why not? 'CAUSE WE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO! But what Adam and Eve did was WRONG. They ate of the "forbidden fruit" - and took a HORRIBLE SHORTCUT - the EASY WAY through life! They wanted everything now without having to work for it! All of a sudden - they KNEW TOO MUCH! It was just as the serpent had told them, except they suddenly realized that "being like gods" wasn't such a good idea after all! Somehow, they had become aware of EVERYTHING GOOD AND EVERYTHING EVIL. But the problem was that they couldn't handle it, because it was all "head knowledge" without being "tempered by experience", the way knowlegde should have been. This sort of reminds me of a line by Jack Nicholson as General Jessep in A Few Good Men: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" No wonder the scripture says, "And the eyes of them both were opened..." and later: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil..." How would you like to instantly understand EVERYTHING YOU ARE DOING WRONG? (Especially for Adam who had done the only thing God said not to do!) How do you like it when people point out all your faults? What would you do if you were presently aware of EVERY POSSIBLE SIN you had done, or are doing - every stray thought - every nuance? I would feel so condemned, I would just like to crawl into a hole somewhere and hide! Becoming responsible for too much all at once without experience to handle it with is SHEER FOLLY! Let us learn to be patient as we learn life "a little bit at a time", for God has promised that He will "not allow something to come your way which you cannot yet handle with what you presently understand". (paraphrase of 1Co 10:13) Is 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Does this seem to make sense to anyone besides me? SPEC :)

It makes perfect sense to me, DrWearWord! Let me elaborate a bit... First of all, I am certainly no scientist, but I have always been interested in that field. I am no math whiz either. (Although, in college I nearly ACED the entire course in "Analytical Geometry and Calculus", the only 5-credit course offered at the school. I got 100's on each weekly quiz, a 98 on the midterm and ACED the final exam.) Sorry if that's sounds a bit "haughty"...it's been a long time since then! But I tell you what: If you ever care to examine the MATH behind Dr Haisch's supposition, it would make your head swim! It all looks like hieroglyphics to me! Now, back to "reality", if there really is such a thing!... I have found that things are really MUCH DEEPER than all this, as you also had said! I am a firm believer in the fact that ALL PHYSICAL THINGS have something "spiritual" behind them. Jesus Christ spoke in parables, showing an "interconnection" between the physical and spiritual realms. The Bible also reveals such a thing in Romans: Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him [spiritual realities] from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are MADE, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: That verse reveals that even things concerning God's "eternal power" and "Godhead" may be understood by looking "behind" the things that are made. Genesis chapter one shows (in "six days") a vast array of that which was made, so you may consider that as a wonderful source of information to LOOK BEHIND and discover some of the most amazing things in the entire universe! Yet, for all this, I say: Even if Dr Haisch and his collaborators are indeed correct about the "light" in Genesis 1 on the first day being connected to their "zero-point field", even that in itself is yet but another PHYSICAL THING with a name attatched to it. And guess what? Behind that is something MORE...and behind that, EVEN MORE - and more, and more, even on to "infinity" - whatever that term truly means! Yes, DrWearWord, we are both in total agreement that "zero may descend even deeper than the light field", as you put it! Man, in his "feeble attempt" to discover all the secrets of the universe only finds a mere "drop in the ocean" with every new advance in technology. But isn't that what makes life so fun? The thrill of exploration and discovery has kept man searching for "answers" since the very dawn of civilization. It sort of reminds me of the lyrics in a song by the Moody Blues (in reference to a verse in Revelation, no doubt): "Knights in white satin, never reaching the end, Letters I've written, never meaning to send. Beauty I've always missed, with these eyes before. Just what the truth is, I can't say anymore"... Well, I can't say much more right now, either - this area is just too darn vast! I will be listening to your song soon, DrWearWord. And speaking of that, I will now also "plug" my stuff too... A few here at Greasespot are aware of the fact that I have recently written my first book. I believe I will entitle it, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents". I hope it will be interesting reading to many. It is in the "conceptual editing phase" of publication at the moment. (lot's of work to be done yet) Advanced copies should be available around August, and the official "worldwide release" in November. Please wish me "luck". SPEC :) PS: After I posted this, I noticed you had commented again: HOW VERY VERY TRUE!

What a refreshing response to my "silly post", DrWearWord! I believe most people would have taken it as ridicule or sarcasm. In a strange sort of way, that's exactly what it was; however, I did mean it "all in fun" - AND YOU ACTUALLY PICKED UP ON THAT! I am truly impressed! My last name is Elliott. In school the kids tried to be "cute" and call me Idiot (LOL), but I knew I was intelligent, so I just laughed along with them. They got no fight out of me! And I got no fight out of you either. We are a lot alike, sir! So, your "reward" is that I will now act in a more serious manner... I think quite a bit of your "logic" in this post has some merit. Abstract as it is, the concept of ZERO as the "beginning of creation" is interesting to me. I saw an article by Bernard Haisch, staff physicist at the Lockheed Martin Solar & Astrophysics Laboratory in Palo Alto, California. He is a scientific editor of The Astrophysical Journal and editor-in-chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration. You may be VERY INTERESTED in this article. Here is the link: Zero-Point Field He supposes that the "light" in Genesis 1 on the first day may have some connection to the "Zero-Point Field", for short. (actually, it is the "electromagnetic zero-point field of the quantum vacuum".) Although that one verse is the only Bible reference in his relatively short article, I believe he actually may have "hit on something". For those of you who are aware of the "gap theory", this might be interesting. (The "gap theory", as it is called, refers to the lapse of time between the first two verses of the Bible - between the crreation of the first earth and its subsequent "destruction", when it became "without form and void".) Some who adhere to this explanation (supposedly caused by a "war among the angels in heaven") also say that this was so devastating that it not only messed up the earth, but all of creation (the entire universe) was out of order as well! Nothing could work - gravity, centrifugal force, inertia, acceleration, electromagnetism - none of the laws of physics as we know them could function, for everthing was in chaos! To put it back into order, God first said, "Let there be LIGHT". If Dr. Haisch's supposition is correct, this would make perfect sense, since the "zero-point field" (as a sort of "grand foundation" for the universe) would be the first thing God would have to reinstitute in order for everthing else to be built upon it, so the universe could again function the way it was designed to be. Is that a little better, DrWearWord, my friend? SPEC :)

A few ideas on the subject… This topic reminds me of something by Shakespeare: Much Ado About NOTHING! There is a lot going on here, but as far as I’m concerned, its all for NOUGHT. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but nought sounds a lot like naughty, so (with the same logic used when transliterating zera to zero), I would have to say it's on the negative side! Oops! My Bad! If it is truly nothing, it cannot be considered "less than nothing'", so it’s really not on the negative side. It’s neither positive nor negative. It’s kinda like in “limbo”. HEY! That reminds me of LIMBerger cheese. Maybe those two terms are somehow related! :blink: If I were to rate this topic on a scale of one to ten, I’m afraid that would be impossible: I would instead give it a ZERO. Will this topic ever make it to the “hot topic list”? I doubt that, for it is COLD. In fact I believe if you could measure it’s temperature, it would be -273.15 degrees Celcius or 0-K, which is ABSOLUTE ZERO. :P Nevertheless, I do consider it very entertaining indeed! In fact, there are enough posts about it here to conclude that a great many people are “putting up” with this NO-tion. Do you suppose that could be defined as zero tolerance? And as long as we doing a lot of guesswork here, I have a few more definitions: Sub Zero: A submarine which disappears in the Bermuda Triangle. Ground Zero: The temperature of dirt in winter time. Zero Gravity: What was written on the subject before Newton’s discovery. Zero Punctuation: A term describing “uncials” and “cursives”. Coke Zero: The bottle’s contents after you drink all the coke. NOTE: If God is zero and God is infinite, then I suppose the bottle still somehow contains an "infinite supply of coke" – sort of like the "cruse of oil" which didn’t run out! Now a bit more on Hebrew and Greek: In Hebrew "nothing" is lo. This makes perfect sense to me because it is not high, and nothing is (of course) much "lo-er" than that! The Greek word for "length" is pote. Looks to me like we might derive our English word "pot" from this. (However, I suspect I might be mistaken because pots, being round, aren’t described as having "length", as are pans.) The Hebrew word for "fowl" is owph. Just like changing the "a" in zera to an "o", making zero, I choose to change the "ph" in owph to an "l". Now we have owl, which is a type of "fowl" – and OUALA! - it fits just like a foot in a sock. I am thankful to DrWearWord for starting this topic. By his example of making zera to zero, I have begun to discover a whole lot more about Greek and Hebrew (as you have just seen!). :) I give him the credit for teaching us all quite a lot about ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! I had my doubts as to whether or not I might learn anything provocative by "venturing into" this topic in the first place. For me, it rather puts a “new twist” into the old addage, "Nothing ventured – NOTHING GAINED"! SPEC :) PS: And if I were you, I wouldn't be concerned about anybody plagiarizing your idea, DrWearWord - After all, you said:

Gee, folks! I sure spent a lot of time on this post...somebody must have "pushed the right button"! As with most of my writings, I would appreciate honest feedback, and gentle correction (with facts, and logic, if you please)where I may have strayed. I would especially like to hear what you all (especially my "friends") think of my take on the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". I had spent quite some time years ago working to see that and have not heard it put that way before, so I believe it's a rather new idea. If it makes some sense to any of you, do let me know - maybe it would make a good TOPIC! SPEC :)

Loved your entire post, Mark! Especially the "list of differences" between God and Jesus. And thank you for explaining how people believe the "holy trininty". I can see their confusion now, clear as day! It's not really as though there is "one God in three persons" as they say they believe, but the way they handle it, it is as though there are three distinct Gods: One God Who created the universe, one God Who (when it is convenient for Him) calls Himself "His own son", and one "rather mysterious" God whose refers to Himself as "The Holy Spirit". It rather reminds me of Greek Mythology where there was a "god for everything"...but Paul distinctly pointed out (as you also showed) that there is ONE GOD. Speaking of "many Gods", it reminded me of a humorous ancedote that happened at work one time. I was talking with one of my friends (who was Catholic) and he showed me a "medal" he was wearing around his neck. He explained that there are several of these for "various occasions". This one was "St. Anthony of Padua", who (among other things) is "the Patron Saint of lost items". He said if you lose something, all you have to do is rub it and say a prayer, and you will find the item soon. So I quipped: "What would happen if you lost the medal? What could you possibly do then?" He looked very puzzled for a few moments. Then he said, "That's not a problem! I'd just go and buy another one." So I agreed with him, saying, "That's exactly what I would do if I lost something. I would do my best to find it, but if I couldn't, I would just go and buy another one." Then we both laughed. Despite our religious differences, we were still friends. I like that. SPEC :)

My bad Oakspear! Sorry. It does have some meaning to everyone. I stand corrected -- all are welcome here to view their own opinion. SPEC :)

:) What a topic! Forgive me for sounding “crass” as I give my opinion on the subject. And for those who do not consider the Bible as “authoritative”, this will (of course) be rather meaningless to you, because it is based upon “holy scripture”. (But I do glean from all of you at times – Christian or not.) As far as the trinity is concerned, I find little to make sense of it. I suppose I could go into great depths while explaining expressions such as I and my father are one, Let us make man in our image, He who has seen me has seen the father, and a host of other quotes which tend to promote the trinity as being a valid argument. Such an attempt would only lead to a VAST variety of similar such suppositions and much wasted time with nothing gained except more “fuel for the fire” so it may continually rage on. However, I have found one piece of logic which seems to dissolve these other “side issues” and expose the trinitarian doctrine for what it represents at “face value”: Suppose (just for a moment – mind you) that the doctrine of the trinity is true. Let us suppose that Jesus is God. (as in God the Father, God the Son, etc…) Let us suppose, (despite the fact that it seems utterly ludicrous for a father to actually be his own son), that somehow they are truly equivalent and co-equal. Let us then, by sheer logic, “plug this into the scriptures” to see what they plainly say about themselves in light of this similarity. I will now substitute these terms at random. For instance, when the Bible mentions Jesus, I may replace it by God. And when it mentions God, I may replace it by Jesus – assuming these to be equivalent terms, there should be no problem. Fair enough? (It should be!) Changes are marked in bold text. Jn 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father are you? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father myself: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father me also. Making a lot of sense to me so far! :lol: Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God Jesus at any time…. :huh: Jn 8 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me I have not left myself alone; for I do always those things that please him myself. Supposing Jesus is God can become quite entertaining! There are literally hundreds of similar nonsensical things to be seen as you spend a pleasant afternoon just reading and substituting this way. (I do it at times just for a bit of comic relief!) :B) Judge me if you like, but at least I’m being honest about what I believe, as are most here. But on a more serious note, the “classic” one is this: (Jesus is speaking) Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. If this is really God speaking, this verse informs us that we can do greater works than God. For those who want to entertain such a thought, you are treading upon very treacherous ground. Lucifer tried to be greater than God once, and failed. He was given a new name – the devil! Consider this deeply and make up your mind if the scriptures are acually saying Jesus is truly somehow his own Father! One of the questions in this thread is whether or not believing the trinity is necessary to become born again. The simple truth about the “new birth” or “becoming saved” is this: Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. If Jesus was God then there was a time when God was dead. (so much for being eternal!) And if God were dead, He would (of necessity) be subject to His own truth on that subject: Ec 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing… If God were dead, then there was a time in which He did not know anything at all. (how silly!) Then just how could He raise Himself from the dead? :unsure: My take on this is that if a person believes Jesus is God and God is Jesus, then it is utterly impossible to believe (according to all scripture) that Jesus was raised from the dead. Not being able to believe that would negate someone from believing Ro 10:9 and therefore, could not become saved. :( And as far as the other thing in Ro 10:9 is concerned, Confessing Jesus as the lord in your life. To believe Jesus is God would say that there is “another Jesus” in addition to the one who is not God. Confessing the Jesus who says he is God might be confessing the wrong one, preventing salvation on both counts. SPEC :)

Good for you, chockfull! We all have to start somewhere. And to me, what you wrote is perfectly logical. However, I warn you there are many here who would question how you derived these in the first place, knowing they were written in scripture, and profess from the start that they are "invalid", questioning the scriptures themselves as being TRUTH, and "demanding" they be proven. Such are similar to those who say they do not believe in God at all, because you cannot show them any "physical evidence" of him, despite the fact they suspect He is spiritual and cannot be seen. But the moment you quote "God is spirit" from the Bible to assert your point, they will again question the very validity of the scripture to deny it yet again. If you read this entire thread, you will see what I mean. But it remains that at least I BELIEVE one (of necessity) must start "somewhere", and that your beginning place (your "Christian axioms", as they were) are as good as any -- and CERTAINLY better than NONE at all! Good for you, sir!

No, Garth, my responses to you are not ended. You do speak your mind, and I respect that. As far as my book is concerned, comparing me to John Lynn wasn't entirely fair, but that's OK. I only wish I felt safe to share what I found, but the time is not quite yet, as the info needs protection for the present, until published. You might find it interesting once I reveal it. At the least, I am sure it will be both provocative and controversial, depending upon the reader. It will be a few months. Peace, SPEC :)

Seth -- I see your true colors coming out, as expected. (Actually, I sort of goaded you into being truthful -- you didn't really think I was so gullible I could actually believe you you were looking for answers after the way you started your involvement in this thread, did you?) You want science? Ever heard of Pangaea? You want more science? Wait until my book comes out. My apologies to all those who are serious about this thread. My responses to Seth are ENDED. Pr 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. SPEC

Seth: It is nice of you to keep trying to understand, and wise to concede certain points when they make sense to you. And thank you for the fine link. There was lots of interesting things there. As far as Noah having to travel to China and Austrailia, we are mindful that Noah did not have to gather the animals himself. They were "inspired" by some sort of "instinct" to come to the ark and go inside. Just how God did this is not explained. If you have read the account of how Daniel survived in the lion's den, you can also understand why there was no need to fear any dangerous species which were aboard the ark. God made sure they were all safe. As far as "taking care" of the animals...perhaps there was an "onboard ecology" whereby nature worked in similar ways with that of today. Species which ate flesh did not starve...there was plenty for them to eat for a few months. Most animals in nature do not require human intervention to survive in the wild. Perhaps it was like that on the ark to a certain degree. The more you look at the details, the more will "add up". There is no reason to quit. If you want answers, keep asking and searching. You will find. SPEC :)

That is interesting Seth. 20 cruise ships, huh? I would like to see a breakdown of these species. I wonder just how many of these 60 million were aquatic, not being affected by a flood. I wonder how many were birds like ducks and such, who could float and eat fish. Your remark needs much further delineation to be a valid argument, if you care to show us all the breakdown. And in your list, please don't forget to account for the "mass distinctions" which happened prior to the flood in Noah's time, according to what paleontologists (among the many other disciplines within the science community) have proven as historically factual. That should further limit your "original list" quite substantially. And somewhere you also need to somehow prove precisely how much time had passed since those extinctions until the flood, so we may properly account for any possible further evolution of the remaining species. However, not believing the scriptures are valid, I doubt you could even get started with some reasonably believable timeline. I know this is quite a task to undertake, but if you are willing to try, there are many who may consider your remarks as worthy of further investigation. SPEC :)

Erkjohn - I believe these were two separate instances - 60 Min one time and 20-20 another. Both got all botched up! And the deprogrammer (or at least one of the main ones) was Ted Patrick. I heard some horrible stories about the legal kidnapping which went on. And it seemed to work because those "felonies" were authorized by terrified parents of those in The Way Cult. What a mess things were at the time! And all that seemed to provide VPW more fire for his "ministry", claiming "We must really have something here, or the devil wouldn't be trying to hard to stop us!" SPEC :)

Right on Leafy! (Except I was ONE who did study independently) I did so to see for myself if what they were teaching actually made sense. Some did, but some didn't. It didn't seem to mean a whole great deal to me to find errors in their work, realizing they are human also and are prone to making mistakes at times, as are we all. When I saw MY mistakes, I just changed my mind. And it felt good to realize I was growing and learning and improving. Yet YOU WERE RIGHT...when I dared to bring up things which didn't actually ring true to my heart, I was told precisely what you said -- "Go read your blue book!" It's rather funny that when I tried to show them their error with LOGIC they couldn't refute, were they meek to hear and change? Did they try to honestly continue debating the issue with EVEN BETTER logic to prove I was yet wrong...or even compliment me on my effort? HELL NO!!! Instead, I was told that I had a devil-spirit called PRIDE ... and a few other things too! Though I didn't believe their accusations, I acted "meek" and just took the crap so as not to rock the boat. And although my demeaner is not to raise my voice in anger, there were times I had to try that approach when I felt there was no other way...perhaps then they would listen. But to my surprise, they yelled back EVEN LOUDER! (they should study Proverbs INSTEAD of their f***ing blue book! -- please excuse my language -- I get "irked" as well.) Why I stayed for over 30 years is a matter of my own heart. I tend to be extremely patient, forgiving and understanding...perhaps moreso than I ought...for even then my "buddies" falsely considered me "gullible". (I forgave them in my heart as well -- Ha!) I guess I figured that eventually somebody with "clout" (Corps, Clergy, etc.) would "discover" those same things themselves and all would be well in the long run. But that never happened! I eventually had to leave them because of it. It's rather ironic how the intriguing idea of being part of a Biblical RESEARCH ministry first lured me into The Way, but it was my own RESEARCH which led me out! (Ha!) Please forgive me now for what I am about to say, because it is just too VAST to cover in proper detail -- I had made a "discovery" which to the best of my knowledge and searching the net has proven to be "unknown in the world". I am in the process of publishing a book about it (my first) which will be coming out in a few months. I had tried in vain over the years to share this wonderful thing with them, but they would not hear. I supposed for a time that somehow the "enemy" was keeping them from seeing it. But over time, I realized that it was perhaps God himself who blinded their eyes to it, no matter how hard I tried to impart it. I suspect now that if they had been allowed to see and appreciate it for themselves, they would have STOLEN it from me, just as they have plagerized just about everything else! (And I am thankful for the many posts along those lines here at GS...my eyes were opened to their nonsense...and I had a nice cup of coffee and a piece of pie to boot!) I thank God for his assistance in this matter all along, despite my ignorance of TWI leadership's true agenda. You are most likely correct as well Waysider...when you said "the whole thing was simply a veiled, business driven MLM scheme designed to generate profits for VPW." SPEC :) PS: The name of my book will most likely be "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents."

I remember once in the 70’s when we all heard that an “official spokesperson of The Way" was to appear for an interview on a Sunday’s primetime broadcast of 60 Minutes. We were all excited about that and were telling everybody we could about the upcoming event. Sunday came -- but completely unannounced, a programming change had been made –- what was aired on 60 Minutes instead was a documentary about The Moonies (headed by Sun Myung Moon), a group labeled as a cult who sold pencils on the street, etc. Needless to say, nearly all the people we had talked to had absolutely NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER in The Way after that! Even when we tried to "explain", most just ignored us -- they didn't want to hear any more about it ! Looking back now with hindsight, I can say TWI deserved that ! Anyone else find this interesting? Spec :)

I do realize what I am about to post has no reference to this topic, but since everyone seemed to enjoy my first ancedote, here is another: Attempting to be the class clown in school did not always work very well. I met my match with Mr. Palmer (a math instructor) on the very first day of my 9th grade trigonometry class… He had written on the blackboard all of the trig functions we would be learning during the semester. (sine, cosine, tangent, etc.) The whole class seemed baffled at the sight of this strange stuff! Having drawn a telephone pole on the board, he posed the question: “Suppose you do not know the height of this pole, but with a sextant you can measure the angle at which a sun-ray is cutting across the top of it – and with a tape measure you can determine the length of its shadow on the ground.” He continued, saying, “Now, with this information and what you will be learning this year, you will find that the “tangent function” will work just fine in solving this problem.”, pointing to it among the myriads of other stuff on the blackboard. He plugged in some numbers and gave the answer. We were all stunned and amazed. Then he said, “Are there any questions?” Sitting in the front row I raised my hand, being ready to be cute! I said, “Mr Palmer – Wouldn’t it have been simpler to just put on a set of gaffs and climb the pole with a tape measure?” The whole class was laughing, and I was in my element! But he quickly replied, “And I suppose, Mr Elliott, in trying to ascertain the distance to the nearest star, you would suggest to NASA that we put a tape measure on the back of a rocket ship – is that correct, Mr Elliott?” That cut me to the bone, for now the class was all laughing at ME as I embarrassingly slumped down in my chair! (He never had any more “problems” with me the rest of the year…I was a model-student from then on… SPEC :)

Coming from you Waysider, I feel honored! And if I had a hat like yours, I'd tip it your way as well! Mel