spectrum49

OK - TRUCE! (I used 5k after having seen your "favorite T-shirt" link.) Besides, in my heart I was seeing it as becoming rather childish. But it was fun! (And I thank the rest of you for your patience while I was getting "carried away".) I see some interesting takes on the "harmonization of the gospels" here. And I agree with Penworks - my curosity of that area is purely "academic". SPEC :)

Pi to 5000 anyone? 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164 062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253 594081284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303819644288109756659 334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266482133936 072602491412737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903 600113305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657595919530921861173 819326117931051185480744623799627495673518857527248912279381830119491298 336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798609437027705392171762931 767523846748184676694051320005681271452635608277857713427577896091736371 787214684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235420199561121290219 608640344181598136297747713099605187072113499999983729780499510597317328 160963185950244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881710100031378 387528865875332083814206171776691473035982534904287554687311595628638823 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269456042419652850222106611863067442786220391949450471237137869609563643 719172874677646575739624138908658326459958133904780275900994657640789512 694683983525957098258226205224894077267194782684826014769909026401363944 374553050682034962524517493996514314298091906592509372216964615157098583 874105978859597729754989301617539284681382686838689427741559918559252459 539594310499725246808459872736446958486538367362226260991246080512438843 904512441365497627807977156914359977001296160894416948685558484063534220 722258284886481584560285060168427394522674676788952521385225499546667278 239864565961163548862305774564980355936345681743241125150760694794510965 960940252288797108931456691368672287489405601015033086179286809208747609 178249385890097149096759852613655497818931297848216829989487226588048575 640142704775551323796414515237462343645428584447952658678210511413547357 395231134271661021359695362314429524849371871101457654035902799344037420 073105785390621983874478084784896833214457138687519435064302184531910484 810053706146806749192781911979399520614196634287544406437451237181921799 983910159195618146751426912397489409071864942319615679452080951465502252 316038819301420937621378559566389377870830390697920773467221825625996615 014215030680384477345492026054146659252014974428507325186660021324340881 907104863317346496514539057962685610055081066587969981635747363840525714 591028970641401109712062804390397595156771577004203378699360072305587631 763594218731251471205329281918261861258673215791984148488291644706095752 706957220917567116722910981690915280173506712748583222871835209353965725 121083579151369882091444210067510334671103141267111369908658516398315019 701651511685171437657618351556508849099898599823873455283316355076479185 358932261854896321329330898570642046752590709154814165498594616371802709 819943099244889575712828905923233260972997120844335732654893823911932597 463667305836041428138830320382490375898524374417029132765618093773444030 707469211201913020330380197621101100449293215160842444859637669838952286 847831235526582131449576857262433441893039686426243410773226978028073189 154411010446823252716201052652272111660396665573092547110557853763466820 653109896526918620564769312570586356620185581007293606598764861179104533 488503461136576867532494416680396265797877185560845529654126654085306143 444318586769751456614068007002378776591344017127494704205622305389945613 140711270004078547332699390814546646458807972708266830634328587856983052 358089330657574067954571637752542021149557615814002501262285941302164715 509792592309907965473761255176567513575178296664547791745011299614890304 639947132962107340437518957359614589019389713111790429782856475032031986 915140287080859904801094121472213179476477726224142548545403321571853061 422881375850430633217518297986622371721591607716692547487389866549494501 146540628433663937900397692656721463853067360965712091807638327166416274 888800786925602902284721040317211860820419000422966171196377921337575114 959501566049631862947265473642523081770367515906735023507283540567040386 743513622224771589150495309844489333096340878076932599397805419341447377 4418426312986080998886874132604721 Hey Chockfull - I think I might have missed one or two digits. Care to count them for me? SPEC :) PS: I have it to 1.25 million, but I won't bore you all with that - besides, it's 378 pages!

Chockful: Or - if one prefers to come off as more complex and highly intellectual, he might even want to quote PI out to 1000 places! Just sayin'... 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406 286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359 408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933 446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607 260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091715364367892590360 011330530548820466521384146951941511609433057270365759591953092186117381 932611793105118548074462379962749567351885752724891227938183011949129833 673362440656643086021394946395224737190702179860943702770539217176293176 752384674818467669405132000568127145263560827785771342757789609173637178 721468440901224953430146549585371050792279689258923542019956112129021960 864034418159813629774771309960518707211349999998372978049951059731732816 096318595024459455346908302642522308253344685035261931188171010003137838 752886587533208381420617177669147303598253490428755468731159562863882353 7875937519577818577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989 SPEC :) PS: Sorry, Bolshevic. (I did fix it, but you read the original post too quickly.)

oops...gonna try this again! SPEC :)

I agree, Bob. In a "strange way" I am thankful to have been with TWI, for at least that is where I was first introduced to many things about the Bible. Surely I could have found those things elsewhere if I had continued my search for some group, but it was nice to have certain keys and principles in a package. Although I am disgusted at the plagiarism and poor application (at times) of the very "research principles" they had taught, I (as you) admit there was some good work done - especially during the "early years". For me, that was in the mid 70's. I do still use much of what I had gleaned from them, but with "caution", also as you had indicated. Certain things just make sense, like the italics in KJV and basic grammar skills like reading for the context instead of isolating things. I could go on and on with more examples of that which was good, but I believe I have made my point. To say The Way had found nothing "original" or did "no research at all" is (IMHO) being narrow-minded. And I believe they did stumble onto a few things here and there, despite their misuse of proper investigative techniques. Perhaps this may be explained by quoting something my dad used to say: "Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn every once in a while!" SPEC :)

First of all, thank you Bob for inviting me to this new topic (from the “Front page Article”). So far, it promises to be very enlightening and interesting. I am excited to see just where it may lead us. Let us hope the “dissenters” keep their comments down to a “dull roar” as we honestly delve into the varied aspects of this wonderful discussion. First, let me comment on the two verses above. I love the renderings – especially the 2nd one! What version are they from? Now, about Ro 1:20ff: This does seem to indicate that “truth” may also be gleaned from things in nature (that which was made by God, of which Genesis 1 is a wonderful and vast source of that which was made) as well as scripture. We all are aware that Jesus taught “many things in parables” (and frequently about things found in nature) showing them to be as indicators of these "invisible qualities of God". I believe that the physical and spiritual realms are closely related, working together in harmony - for God designed them both! As an "aside", I want to give you my take on Rom 16:25-27. I have edited it somewhat to show how it flows in a grammatical sense. Note the many parenthetical phrases [in brackets] which render the “heart” of this entire passage to be simply, “Now to him….to God…be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.” Ro 16:25 Now to him [that is of power to stablish you] [according to my gospel], [and the preaching of Jesus Christ], [according to the revelation of the mystery], [which was kept secret since the world began], 26 [but now is made manifest], [and by the scriptures of the prophets], [according to the commandment of the everlasting God], [made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:] 27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. This also lines up with that which Paul expounds upon in further detail in Ephesians concerning this “mystery”: Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things… With the context of the “mystery” in mind, observe a similar wording to that which we saw in Romans. [Again, the parenthetical phrases are in brackets.] 20 Now unto him [that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think], [according to the power that worketh in us], 21 Unto him be glory [in the church] by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. I agree with you Bob…..the “canon” in Jesus’ and Paul’s time was most likely much broader than that which others had “selected” later on to form what they call the “holy scriptures”. Cases in point: (and there are many more referenced in the OT.) 2Ch 9:29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat? 2Ch 12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually. Es 10:2 And all the acts of his power and of his might, and the declaration of the greatness of Mordecai, whereunto the king advanced him, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Media and Persia? Just where are these today? Are there others as well which are not mentioned? Did Jesus and/or Paul have access to them? And (most importantly), when the time came for “canonization”, why were these left out? After all - they were important enough to have been referenced as additional supporting evidence to things being spoken of in the OT. So, Paul had at least four sources: Former writings we have as the Bible today, other manuscripts (many of which are now either lost or hidden), and things found in nature. He also had what God was giving to him and his contemporaries, and a brain to relate all these facets together to form what he believed as "the truth". And isn't it funny that God said people are left "without excuse" for not believing the truth, based simply upon the physical things alone ! (Ro 1:20) And how much greater does that ring true in light of these other sources as well! SPEC :)

It seems this topic has returned to one of its major points – which concerns the inerrancy of the scriptures as a premise upon which VPW had built his empire. We all know what can happen when one takes this approach. The intense desire to show it to be true may drive someone to squeeze the scriptures searching for any “palusible confirmation” no matter how remote, or rationalizing (as Waysider had recently pointed out) to make it so even when he himself might have some doubt left. And of course we all know that is not doing an honest investigation. I personally find nothing so wrong in starting with a premise, or an assumption, which (later on) might be seen as reasonably valid enough to venture a conclusion. (I worded it that way because no matter just how good something looks or how many points and arguments seem to make it true, one cannot still be 100% sure of its validity in the very end.) Nevertheless, some choice has to be made somewhere down the line, and I would select the one which made the most sense to me. When starting with an idea that something might be true, I find it of the utmost importantance to stay objective and impartial, (just like any good jury) lest I fall into the trap of reading into things, and twisting or bending them in the direction of my idea – especially when they don’t seem to lead there naturally. Certainly it is true to a point that if one continually searches for something and does not control his emotions and desire, he might just find it everywhere if he is not careful. This may even happen subconsciously, causing errors which lead to false assumptions that will form an ill-founded conclusion. I personally believe it is available for one to have a strong urge to investigate such a “notion” while still holding his emotions in check while properly weighing all of the evidence so as to either support or to invalidate his original idea. Perhaps this is where VPW erred at times, grasping at straws in support of his claims and stopping far short of a more reasonable investigation before setting the idea in stone, and teaching it as 100% truth. I noticed this many times in my years with TWI. They would only teach something to a certain point and then have you suppose that was enough to prove it. But if you personally and objectively re-examined the issue in more detail and your own conclusion contradicted theirs, they would shut their ears to your logic and give you their warning to stop and just accept it the way it is, saying, “Who are you to say the MOG is wrong?!” And didn’t he himself say something to the affect that most people are “held spellbound by the fleeting names of a few great men”? He said in PFAL, “Well – if the great so-and-so said it, it must be true! After all, he’s the greatest theologian in the world!” In my eyes, that’s exactly what he himself expected from the followers of The Way!! Anyway – back to the issue of “inerrancy”. (And please forgive me if I am running on too much here, for I do have an issue.) I must admit that I was led to believe "that premise” (to a point) by what was taught, because it seemed so logical in many catagories. However, I never believed 100% of what they showed – far from it! But enough of the scriptures seem to blend together to give me that impression. Oh yes – I am aware of the various other texts, and writings, whether or not they were cannonized as “holy scripture” by men. And yes – I am aware of the different renderings of Greek and Hebrew words by equally reknown scholars. These factors – and many more – would seem to gradually unravel the very idea that (at the least) some of scriptures really may have integrity after all. I will admit here in this post (and sorry if it offends) that I really do believe there is something remarkable about the Bible in the way it “coheres”. And this was not merely by those who first planted that notion in my head (whom I left years ago) but through my own personal study – a quest if you like – which has taken since 1989 to feret out. I have not drawn my conclusions based upon a little bit of circumstantial evidence here and there. To the best of my ability I have remained impartial while seeking evidence which seemed to relate with my “premise”. At first it was rather slow going, but after a couple of breakthroughs along the way, stronger and even more convincing points were able to be made. Several years into “the project” a major breakthrough occurred which left me virtually without question that I had somehow stumbled onto something HUGE! What I then saw was so wonderful and intricate I had to ask myself if man was witty enough to have devised this on his own and write it down in a Bible. And if man was so adept, then why was this not just common knowledge ever since? Why has this been staring Biblical scholars right in the face for thousands of years, yet was not seen? That breakthrough allowed more pieces of this puzzle to fall into place rapidly and easily with increasing frequency until I realized “enough was enough” and I could no longer deny the idea indeed seemed valid. And that was when I realized (despite all that was seen) I had only really found a drop in the ocean concerning this area. So I decided to stand upon it and claim it as true – still realizing I could somehow yet be mistaken. But I decided to put my name to it anyway and publish it. No doubt many will believe it right away, others will see it in time, and (of course) there will be the dissenters. I see nothing so wrong in all of that – everyone makes his own choice. They must only be careful to make their own choice rather than to gullibly accept someone else’s as their own. It is my hope that others with knowledge and skills far beyond mine in the various disciplines of theology, math, science, physics, evolution, etc. will apply those principles to what I have seen and help to discover more “drops” – maybe gallons or perhaps even enough to fill a swimming pool! Sometimes I feel as though I may have opened Pandora’s box ! :o If you like, look at my findings when they finally make the bookstores. I am still open to suggestion and am still objective, but I warned already that I am fairly well convinced – yet still meek enough to respond to even better logic when it is offered. Now, in your humble opinions – have I done something so wrong in coming to my “conclusion”? Can I help it if so many pieces seem to fit so perfectly together that I have become convinced God has authored and preserved his writings to at least some state of perfection which still remains intact today, despite man’s treatment of them over the centuries? Is He able to do that? I didn’t intend to write so much here - but I'm posting it anyways. What the heck! Love and Hope, Spectrum49 :)

Thank you very much for the info. By saying it already needed to be uploaded to a website sure helped! So I started an account with Photobucket, uploaded a pic from my hard drive to it, saved it in a folder, and clicked on it to get its url. Then I returned to GS and clicked on "insert photo" while editing a post, and pasted the url into where it was asking for the website where the pic was located. Pretty easy - and it worked! The only thing remaining is I have yet to learn how I might change the size of it in the post. That's no big deal though, I can live with it "full size" as compared to a thumbnail. Thanks again! SPEC :) PS: NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!

Gee -- Thanks, Waysider! SPEC :)

I was in the Advanced Class '89 at Emporia KS, and LCM was speaking about these things, along with ABS. He said (in so many words) that if you didn't do them, then "God won't even spit in your direction!" I think that is just fine because I don't really want God to spit on me anyways. And besides that, I really doubt that he spits on people in the first place! This was about the time of the "great split" of The Way, and the ensuing "fog years" to come. He said that if we were to "ever leave the fellowship and protection of this household of God", then we would be "greasespots by midnight" ! And guess what? His "prophecy" actually came true, for not too long after I left TWI, I found this WONDERFUL CAFE - I'm now a "Grease Spot" and loving every minute of it! Now, how's about a nice cup of coffee and a slice of pie? SPEC :)

It was very clear indeed! SPEC :)

Maybe this will assist you Erkjohn… Certainly you are correct that this type of thinking can lead to rampant misbehavior. But on the reverse side, suppose that the spirit could become tainted by illicit deeds in the flesh. Over time, it could deteriorate into nothing! Then, what would be so eternal about this gift? What would become of the promise of living forever? What would remain any more as an incentive to act good in order to obtain rewards? These, and many other things would all fall by the wayside – and it would eventually negate all that Christ accomplished for those who would later believe. The very concept of grace would become a “byword”, and all the good that God intended for His children would be cancelled out ! :( It almost seems a shame that God had to set things up the way He did in order for His children to enjoy life. But in His eyes it is the best way. Truly the spirit remains intact - perfectly suited for each individual and eternally pure, while the flesh part remains the same as well. This gives people a choice whether to act in either a godly manner or as they always had before. God knew this potential for evil would still remain, and encourages believers in many places to “renew their minds”, to “avoid evil”, to “do those things which make for peace”, and many others. Whether they will do this or not is up to them – and there are rewards awaiting those who do so. Understanding this “temptation”, He inspired the following to be written: Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid… In other words, “If grace (this allowance to still choose evil) is so wonderful, then why not allow it to become as large as possible by continuing to act in a sinful manner?” And then He gives the answer: “ I forbid it.” Grace was not meant to be abused. By the way, the Greek word for "abound" is pleonazo, meaning to “superabound” or to become “out of bounds”. Knowing sin would yet continue in the believers’ lives, God desires each individual to keep it “reasonable” – because nobody is going to act perfectly all of the time! He then goes on to explain some logic behind it, with the “bottom line” being to “walk in newness of life”: …How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. As I mentioned before, doing good to obtain rewards should be incentive enough to continue avoiding this temptation to fall into the trap of eventually doing “all types of illicit behavior”, as you had put it. The first step is laying the foundation – that is, becoming born again and receiving this “incorruptible” spirit: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. I Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. After that, a person can do right or wrong by his free will choice and his spirit is still intact, regardless of his actions in the flesh. The following shows what will happen in the future concerning all the “deeds” by those who are born again: I Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. Basically, all of the believers’ works will enter some type of “fire”. The illicit behavior will burn, and the good works will survive the fire and be rewarded. And again, your logic is entirely correct, Erkjohn. It is possible for one to become born again and then do nothing but evil the rest of his natural life! The following shows no rewards for that person at all – yet even in that event, “he himself shall be saved”. He still has his eternal life because the seed of that life cannot become corrupted. I Co 3:15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. It is God’s wish that people not only become saved, but also to continue living right so they may have rewards in this life, and eternally as well. It is my guess that these rewards will include positions of honor, special privileges and responsibility in future times to come – things beyond the book of Revelation. I believe that eventually more will be written, but what little is written about it now is sufficient enough for enjoying life upon this Earth the way it was designed to be. SPEC :)

I know how to upload pictures from my computer into a post, but they are formatted as thumnails, which work ok. But I would like to know how to insert a picture within a post which is sized enough to see it as it is without having to click or open a new window to see it larger. For example, this is all I can do at the present: SPEC :)

Thanks Waysider for the great verbal description of "The Great Principle" chart. However, I DO have a scanner! :) I trust this will help others to visualize it better. ("One picture is worth...") The following was from the Intermediate Class on The Way of Abundance and Power - Section 6, pg 38. (1996 - LCM): (For best results, right-click on thumbnail and choose "Open Link in New Window".) Just below the chart is the following: "God Who is Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit. Your spirit teaches your mind. Then it becomes manifested in the spiritual realm as you act or as your speak out." Of course this was used to "encourage" people to speak in tongues for the first time, and again and again throughout the rest of the PFAL and WAP series for instruction in "operating the other 8 manifestations". I believe you guys are on the right track about just where this idea may have come from. It makes sense to me that the “triangle” is trinity-based - and VPW (being an expert “borrower of other people’s works”) would definitely have snapped up such a great idea if it helped him to “peddle more classes” ! On a related note, I do remember one of VP’s quotes: “Reason holds the same relation to the spirit, as the body does to reason.” (And I wonder just where he got this one from!) This wording seemed to confuse a lot of the students, but it is basically “The Great Principle” again. I put it this way: “The spirit will give direction to the mind just as the mind gives direction to the body.” (This sort of reminds me of one of TWI's commonly used phrases: “body, soul & spirit”, which they have always had reversed. It should be ordered as written in 1Th 5:23 - "spirit and soul and body".) And on another note, LCM did his best to emulate the MOG by giving “his take” on this as well in the Advanced Class, where he explained the “flip side” of this principle concerning the devil, who “counterfeited” the idea from God. (And now we know where those two MOG got the notion of "plagiarizing" from!) The following is from the 1998 Advanced Class by LCM: Trying to be cute, he called it The Great Prince’s Pull. (Personally, I thought that joke was rather lame !) :o (For best results, right-click on thumbnail and choose "Open Link in New Window".) According to his chart, the devil's "manifestations" are what are commonly referred to as "the 7 deadly sins". Speaking of those, he did seem to be rather adept at one of them, namely, "sowing discord among the brethren". Can anyone everyone agree with that? (Did anyone also notice how the dancing woman is dressed? She is the spitting image of "the devil" in TWI's production of Athletes of the Spirit, in which LCM showed off his newly-acquired ballet skills !) I do hope this post has helped shed more light on a great topic ! SPEC :) PS: If anyone can explain to me how to insert larger pictures in these posts instead of thumbnails, please send me a PM. Thanks!

Hey Bob! Nice posts – Quite a vocabulary you have, sir! Excuse me for sounding ignorant, but I had to look up some words you used: ----------------------------- edumacasion (edumacation) – seems to be slang for education disingenuous – lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere remonstrance – the act of saying or pleading in protest, objection, or disapproval ----------------------------- I once had a professor who said “Please extinguish the illumination at the termination of activity within this domain”. My friend said, “What?!” I told him, “Turn out the lights when you leave the room.” :unsure: SPEC :)

I doubt it. I seem to remember a part in the original PFAL class where he was “remembering” what happened as he was teaching a live class some time before. It was the part that went: “Verily I say unto you, today shalt thou be with me in paradise - or is it Verily I say unto you today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” I recollect him saying to that class that “We might have something here”! Then he went on to say something like, “They all went home - and when they came to class the next day they were all bubbling with excitement, for they too had seen that one little comma had made all the difference”. First off, I wonder if the incident happened at all. Even if it did, I am sure the students, in an effort to “please the teacher”, all agreed with him. (And from what I have heard, God help them if they dare contradict the “MOG”!) IMHO, I believe the incident never really happened. But in his mind, the “stooooorrry” was good for his own teaching purposes - and to have us assume he was truly interested in others’ opinions. I personally think he had his mind made up about this point long before the class even began! I find it hard to believe he was truly meek enough to listen to what others had to say, unless he recognized it as something “valuable enough to plagiarize for himself”. You are right, Bob – It was not about us, but about HIM. SPEC :)

I knew that also Waysider! It was easier to just say I "saw something with my eyes". And you are entirely correct. And to think I supposed all you do is to interject little "quips" here and there to lighten up the posts! You do have some "grey matter" up there, huh? Or is is really grey? Gee - now I'm confusing myself! Well - I consider you pretty honorable yourself! SPEC :)

Very good, Roy! The result would be "nothing", as there is no "substance" to asborb or reflect the light - and, as you pointed out, there is no light either. I have "seen" colors with my eyes closed; however, that would not really be "seeing" since the eyes are not involved. Instead, I would call it "imagining". SPEC :)

I like that, Mark! I too had noticed that as I was working Genesis 1. And there's even more to the story which I won't go into at this time. SPEC :)

Tell ya what Roy - I'll give you some information and then perhaps you tell me what color you see in your above situation. When most people see something which appears blue, they assume that IT IS blue. Curiously though, it is exactly the opposite! As I understand it, the internal properties of any substance allow it to do two things when it is exposed to light: It can either (1) "absorb" light or (2) "reflect" it back. In my example, whatever the item is composed of allows it to absorb EVERY COLOR EXCEPT BLUE. Since it cannot absorb blue, it must reflect it back. That is why it appears blue from the observer's perspective, though (in reality) it actually contains every color except blue! Something white is reflecting back all the colors, while some black has absorbed them all. So, you tell me - what color do you see in your example of "the dark room"? SPEC :)

Personally, I ultimately equate everything good to LIGHT and everything evil to DARKNESS. I tend to believe everything on the "good side" is related somehow to the term "light" in one way or another, and vise-versa for the "evil side". So to me (and this is MY THINKING, of course) the terms seed, inner man and new man (being on the "good side") do relate somehow with holy spirit - and with each other as well! Maybe they are "brothers or sisters", "aunts or uncles", "cousins or distant cousins", but somewhere, somehow, "at the end of the day" I am sure they all do equate into LIGHT. Enjoying "my light show" - or perhaps it is really "His light show"...makes no difference to me. I'll tell ya what: Let me simply rephrase it... Enjoying "the light show", SPEC :)

I agree Geisha. It wasn't meant to be funny, but it does make me laugh the way you put it all in perspective! We can understand it was not by Moses' power that this miracle was done. But by having him hold up the staff just before the Red Sea was parted, God was showing Israel He was with Moses and that they should have respect for him - and they did (for a while) until something else came up. I can undertand Moses' frustration. Israel acted much like "fair-weather friends" - glad when things went good, but seeking alternatives to God when the pressure was on again. And many people are just like that even today. That makes me laugh also. Anything man does, no matter how elaborate, is "sheer folly" in the eyes of PURE WISDOM: Prov 1:26 [wisdom speaking] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; This verse reminds me of something I saw once... I was walking down the sidewalk and saw a guy walking along. He just couldn't seem to keep his eyes off of a pretty girl across the street. I watched as he was heading right toward a telephone pole. And sure enough - SMACK! I laughed and laughed at this. Of course (in my heart) I felt sorry this had happened to him, but still couldn't seem to contain myself because what he actually did was just "so stupid". Similarly, to me it is laughable to watch Israel's "antics" in the OT - to be acting so foolishly after having seen the power of God in action time and time again! So sometimes, all we can do is just laugh. SPEC :)

Excuse me year 2027. I read your post. I can't see how is possibly relates to the topic. And you said nothing about it at all. I'm LOST! Can you elaborate on it somewhat and show me how this fits into our discussion? SPEC

Good call Oak! I agree wholeheartedly ... after all, who is perfect among us? Yes, folks! There ARE a lot of great people here, despite the fact that we cannot help being "snarks" at times. At least we are having fun! A lot of what is going on during this thread is sort of a "side-bar" to the real work being done here concerning the "topic" - and most recently by Penworks and roberterasmus. I am learning a lot about "true research" from this - and having a little fun too! SPEC :)

Pretty funny stuff, you two! Been there - done that. I especially enjoyed the one about LCM promising to "rise up and annoy the .... out of everyone". Chased away quite a few, huh? Oh well - any way to have people leave TWI is justified in my sight! With our hindsight, isn't it ironic that he really may have (in reality) done a "good thing" by sending them away? Sort of reminds me of: Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong... ...15 But he saveth the poor from the sword, from their mouth... [YEAH, BUDDY!] Now, on a more serious note...for TrustAndObey: About the "IN or UPON stuff": Personally, I never read in the NT that “the spirit departed” from anyone as it did Saul, for instance. And I do believe we cannot “lose our spirit” in the Grace Administration. But that is merely "my take" - no big deal. Nevertheless, if we are to concern ourselves with the spirit’s OPERATION, I believe we do agree they are “one and the same” throughout the entire Bible. And we don’t energize it – God does. Oh yes, we might “believe” for that, but there are constraints involved which relate to God’s justness. If we are out in “left field”, we are not in the “best position” to be receiving revelation & power in operation in the first place. And the same is true in OT times. Whether the spirit is truly “permanent” or not does not matter so much after all. Not much really happens in life without some level of obedience anyway. (And, even during "dire situations" I believe God's mercy is still big enough to allow it in order to protect "life & limb", so to speak.) I really hate to nit pick – so no big deal about “in or upon”. It’s like you said, its “mostly academic anyway”. Now back to more "fun & games"...I do promise to enjoy the "Light Show" as you had requested, but perhaps not the one you were referring to - it's really all about light in "one way or another", huh? :B) So you see, my dear, this way EVERYONE can enjoy the "light show" - well, not everyone - but that's another topic... SPEC :)