spectrum49

WOW! I have just finished reading the threads in this topic. (Actually, I ended up just scanning most of it, after I saw where it was going.) I have foregone commenting further concerning the topic (about "languages", "SIT", "tongues", etc) --- mainly because of the tone involved as it progressed into an "argument of sorts", for which even a MOD needed to become involved. Although (at first) many interesting ideas were brought up about "SIT" etc, somewhere a horrible storm was allowed to develop! And whatever may have been edifying among the posts seems to have been lost among the storm's accompanying raging winds. And as a result, I agree with neither side of that portion of the debate. I suppose that somewhere or other a wonderful principle has been overlooked, which ALL KNEW, but chose to disregard: Pr 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool. Pr 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling. It is obvious that the participants in that "struggle" should each have realized that neither side was going to yield any time soon! It would have been better if either had decided to just forebear instead of letting it continue to no avail. Pr 17:14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with. According to the above verse, such things are easily noticed --- just like when one has to "take a leak", so to speak. Now, we all know that such a thing may be stopped easily at first. But if it is not, then it must continue its course through to completion. Stopping such a thing once it has developed becomes very difficult (and maybe even painful) to do. So --- Let's try to remember this principle in the future --- before another "pi**ing contest" ensues again. :)/> OK? Spec

Geisha779, Maybe what I have recently written is clearing up this "freedom of will" thing for you. I am continuing to respond to the posts in this Topic...this one was in response to your post #49...I only wish I had been involved in this Topic as it was being discussed. Please forgive me all. I'm trying to "catch up". Spec :)/>

You seem very close, chockfull. But do see my (recent) previous post showing that "he" does indeed refer to the man. And yes, your conclusion seems accurate, despite your mistake in grammar. Spec

Regards, Spec

Twinky: Forgive the "late post", as I am just now beginning to read this topic, and have a comment concerning your question: One of the keys in this verse is the word "severally", which is the Greek word idios. All but two usages render it as "one's own, his own, her own, it's own", etc. The other is in 2Pet 1:20… "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private [idios: "one's own"] interpretation." This makes perfect sense here --- but look what happens in 1Co 12:11, when it is rendered properly… "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally [idios: "his own"] as he will." Grammatically speaking, it is now clear that it means "as the man wills" ---…dividing to every man his own as he wills. As a matter of fact, we get our English word "idiosyncrasy" from idios. (This is in opposition to the many Bible versions which render "he" as "He", etc - referring to God, and not the man himself!) Now --- because of TWI's influence --- I had supposed the word "will" refers to our believing, in accordance with each of the "9 evidences" (or perhaps the "one manifestation", as to how these all seem to work together as a unit.) But I believe I see even clearer now that it is not referring to our believing for such things to be manifested. Another key in this verse is the word for "wills" --- boulomai. This does indeed refer to our intellect, including our affections and desires, and our own particular way of doing things. A good rendering would be that it's merely what one is "inclined to do", which makes him a bit different than everyone else. And this is also consistent with idios, as both of these Greek words refer to one's own particular way of doing things, or "idiosyncrasies". Now, we must also remember that it is God (not the man!) who "worketh" [energeo: "energizes"] these "spiritual evidences". This is most apparent while observing the "triple reflexive" of "the one and self-same Spirit." Putting it together: God is the only one who energizes these aspects (evidences) of a believer's gift of holy spirit. And he does this "as the man is inclined" to have it so. He works with us individually and personally according to how we think, and never oversteps our desires or intentions. That is how he reveals things of the spirit to us --- by that which He knows we can relate to! For instance, he can do this by using the lyrics to a favorite song of ours, or a recent experience, or any number of things in our lives - according to the way we think --- by that which He knows we will recognize, and make some sense out of. Now TWI would have us to suppose WE are willing those things to happen, as though WE are doing the energizing --- which WE ARE NOT! One case in point is what they teach from Act 8:6..."And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he [Philip] did." From here, they go on about how Philip himself had determined to do the miracles --- on demand, as it were! And then by this example, they attempt to teach believers about performing "all nine all the time", when we have absolutely nothing to do with the "energizing" of those things into evidence, "as the man wills". For instance, we don't get into a situation where we suppose a miracle is needed, and then attempt to bring one to pass, just because we think that's what God wants. I believe this is where TWI failed. However, if a miracle is needed, we can rely upon God to energize one for us, as we believe. (For now, I am just trying to be simple concerning something which is truly far more complex.) And, just who is to tell what else may be involved while that miracle is coming to pass in the senses realm? Surely, WOW and WOK, and DOS, and Faith, and perhaps Healings are also taking place. And just who in the heck should be analyzing each "step of that process" which God himself is energizing? For that is impossible to know. Most times, we merely look back after the thing is done, and try to figure what might have happened. But TWI seems to think we are "in control" of that entire process. To them it's sort of like this: "Well - I need a miracle. So I will speak in tongues to energize my spirit." (But remember, it is God who does the energizing!) "OK, now that is done I think I need some word of knowledge about the situation, so I will just believe, and look for some of that next, and then some word of wisdom as to how I might carry that out. And I will also be sure to be operating discerning of spirits, just in case something might be there to thwart my efforts. And I will look for that, if it is present. And then, somehow, I will just operate faith, and that should do the trick - I will make that miracle happen." In the above scenario, most times nothing happens because God simply will not energize it for someone who thinks like that, wanting to take credit for himself - that he did it by operating the gift himself. If God energized the spirit like that for everyone, he himself would be promoting error and wrong practice in the lives of his children. And soon, God's spiritual intent would be totally out of control, having been put into the hands of men! And, if something does happen when believers act in that manner and frame of mind, you can be almost sure that it's the adversary who has been allowed to produce that "lying sign or wonder", just to give credence to their flawed process, and thereby queering what God really wanted. And then the person doing it will openly give credit to God for what his enemy has done. Such a pity! More easily put, yes - we do the works of Jesus Christ. But we do not determine what they are, or when, or how they will be done. Even Jesus Christ himself did not do that: Jn 5:19..."Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." When we see God working in a situation, we continue acting on it while God himself is bringing something spiritual to pass, as we allow it. You might say we are merely allowing him to do his own work. A good friend of mine here at GreaseSpot (Tom) put it this way: God is energizing; you are following his energizing. Even if your following is inspired you speak and act in immediate synch with God's leading, and you are still acting as Jesus said, "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work." (Jn 5:17, two verses previous to the above quote). I hope this clears some things up a little bit. I will continue reading this Topic. (Perhaps I have merely repeated other things said later in the threads to follow.) Spec

Hi geisha779 --- Nice post! This may be a little outdated, since I just now began to read this topic and its threads. But thus far, I have something to comment upon about your post here....a poem I wrote long ago....which (of course) is still timely information. I hope you enjoy it. (I will be continuing to read this topic and I may comment again later on.) Something Worth Giving by Melvin W. Elliott - 1975 Is there something worth giving you can give to a friend? Do it now while he's living; do not wait till the end. Though one's mind holds all mysteries, knowledge and faith, His deeds won't be history without love; there's no trace. While bestowing one's treasures to feeding the poor, He can give without measure, yet one thing is sure: Even giving his life for a great, noble cause Will profit him nothing; without God's love it's lost. Charity is giving God's love to mankind, And it's given with cheerfulness; it's not hard to find. So study His Word and share to begin, And you'll see that God's charity is right there within. Whatever you do for God, do it with might! And share it with charity; fight the good fight. So give what's worth giving; God's keeping the score; So that now and in heaven you'll receive your rewards. Spec :)/>

Very interesting "INFO-ABSORPTION". I'm just glad I won't be here for "round two", as it were! SPEC

Twinky, What an apt description of God's omnipotence, and foreknowing! That aside, it's nice to know that we still have choices to make in life. Let us choose to do good, and not evil, and let us enjoy the rewards we are laying up for ourselves when that "time" comes. Eccl 12: 13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear [respect] God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Spec :)/>

Tom, my friend and brother in Christ, I simply love your style of writing! It reads like "prose poetry". It stimulates the mind and excites the imagination. Now I understand why I was ranting a bit about my former years with "you know who" - I rarely do that. After finishing what I had to say, I was mindful to just delete it and answer to the topic with a short thread. But somehow I guess it was ok, for your sake. And how meek you are! It surprised me how you actually ordered the book, as my intention in the post was certainly not just to "peddle" a few more of them. And thanks for letting me know that you didn't mind sifting through my post by saying "it required no patience". That too, was most refreshing! (Sometimes I judge my manner as too lengthy and detailed for most to bear, when I am merely assuring myself they will have enough to get the point - and I often say more than is probably necessary to convince myself it will be understood in the end.) As for my book: Knowing you realize that nothing man does is perfect, I'm sure it will not be a shock to you if "little errors" appear here and there, according your level of scope concerning the Scripture. I am most confident they will not be a bother to you whatsoever. (However, if there IS something glaring, I trust you might bring that to my attention. Thank you!) At the risk of again appearing foolish (by the multitude of words), I am mindful to let you in on something which is not in the book - perhaps only for your amusement. (Because of its nature, I may have just "friended you" here and sent it in a private message.) But what the heck --- I am not ashamed of it being made public. If people want to scoff, that's ok with me! The revealing of the whole concept for my book turned out to be some marvelous "divine distraction from my carnal woes" at the time, perhaps the lowest point in my life to-date. I was sitting in yet another PFAL class in Phoenix AZ (my 50th or so), right behind the adulterer who had stolen my wife and children while we were all living in Oregon. (In Sep '87, I came home to a short note from my wife after work one day saying she was leaving - and there was no address or number.) By December (while witnessing in my neighborhood) I just happened to be speaking with an old lady who turned out to be his grandmother! She felt bad for me. Although she had been instructed not to divulge their whereabouts, God worked in her heart to inform me they were in Phoenix, a 1000 miles away. So I quit my job, left college, and moved to Phoenix. By June '88, he was taking PFAL for the first time, and my seat assignment was directly behind him. And his lover (my wife) was there as well. [it's curious how everyone around knew the situation, but did nothing about it. In fact, I found out some time after the class that a Reverend living in the area was planning to perform their "ministry wedding" just as soon as my wife could serve me the "final decree". (Go figure!) Sorry for the detail - I just wanted you to understand my predicament, so you may better appreciate what God did for me during my time of woe.] I just cannot put into words how I truly felt during that class, but had hope that this guy (and my wife as well) would wise up once he understood the Word and they might stop all this nonsense so I could have my family back. The grads were given an assignment to do a word study on "abundance" as in Jn 10:10. I had always loved to study. After three days I had looked up all the usages of "perisso" and turned my work in. (I can't honestly say I learned anything more from that study about how immense our abundance is in Christ. I sort of knew it was pretty big already from other classes, fellowships and research over the years.) But a curious thing was happening in my life during the next three mornings. As my manner is, I would begin the day by reading the Bible for a few minutes. As sometimes happens, I couldn't decide just where to read. (We all do that, huh?) Well, it was the third day in a row this had happened and I was not pleased with myself at all! Years before, I had come up with a remedy for this "terrible habit of indecision". I would simply invoke a penalty of sorts - that I must now read the entire Bible! That way, for about a year or so, it would be much easier to decide where to read in the mornings. And after I was finished, I'd be damned sure to make up my mind a little quicker from then on! (And please don't ask how many times I have had to do that, for I would be ashamed to tell you!) So, I began my task in Gen 1:1. When I reached verse 20, I noticed the word "abundantly". Having already turned in my assignment, I thought to myself: "Darn - this is it's first usage in the Bible! What a shame I had not included it, for noting that research key would surely have impressed the class leader!" (I didn't have the Septuagint yet.) By the next verse I saw it again, and thought: "Darn - it's there twice in a row, meaning it's established, and I missed yet another chance to impress him!" It's funny though. With "abundance on the brain" from my recent studying, (and having learned that words in the scriptures are defined in their initial usage) I could not help applying its implication to what I had studied. In the context, it was apparent that God was using all the life in all the oceans of the world as an example of just what abundance might entail. I was simply thrilled by that implication! And I must admit that those two simple verses did more for me to further appreciate the possible immensity of our abundance during this Age of Grace than that entire 3-day word study. WOW! Soon, I reached verse 23: "And the evening and the morning were the fifth day." Strangely, the word "fifth" seemed to be in bold print. And then, something came over me which was quite amazing. (I do not teach phenomena, which is why I didn't comment on this in my book. But I am pleased to tell you about it, Tom, perceiving you are a man of understanding.) The light around me dimmed a bit as I stared at the word "fifth" in amazement. All of a sudden I felt as "high as a kite" and my eyes were even glazed over, just as I had experienced years before during my "drug days" back in the 60's. (I would be willing to bet that if I had looked into a mirror, they would have been red as a beet too!) As a matter of fact, after the first minute or so it felt as though I were "somewhere else", just like on LSD, or something. What a trip, man! (But I knew I was still there in my living room reading the Bible.) The entire "vision" (or whatever it truly was) lasted from about 2-5 minutes or so (I cannot tell). Whether it was phenomena, revelation, or my own mind at work is hard to fathom. Most likely, it was a combination of things. During that time, the first thing I noticed was a possible parallel between this word "abundance" and our 5th administration, where we see our great riches in Christ. Just to be sure it might truly be something of significance, I remember quickly scanning Genesis One to see if it appeared on any other day. And it didn't! Then it occurred to me that there are a total of 7 days here in Genesis One, and I had been taught that there are also 7 administrations which cover the entire Bible. What a stretch of the imagination to suppose that each of these days might mysteriously relate to each of the administrations in some kind of perfect order! As marvelous as this all seemed to me, I still considered I may just be projecting my own thoughts into the Bible, based on some presupposed notion or premise - which is utterly wrong practice while honestly working the scriptures! But because I felt high without drugs and realized that somehow God may be orchestrating all of this, I rather considered it to be an exception to the norm. So I just relaxed and allowed him to "do his thing." Immediately, dozens of ideas and related verses were streaming through my mind, all connecting up into some wonderful amazing pattern. It was like "sunesis on steroids". The amount of things God can show someone in a moment of time is simply amazing! (He's the master teacher, for sure.) After a short time the "vision" was over. I had returned from wherever the heck I had been; my eyes instantly felt normal and I was no longer high. And such began my noble quest to look deeply into this matter: "searching the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11) And I also decided to be kind to myself by rescinding that "self-inflicted punishment" of having to read the whole Bible through again. And from then on, I've never had a problem deciding where to read in the mornings. Also --- I was no longer distracted during the rest of that PFAL class, for I now had plenty to keep my mind upon - rather than my own "earthly troubles". All of that seemed utterly trivial in comparison to what had been revealed to me. And it didn't bother me much at all when my wife married her new lover soon after that. Amazingly, it was only two months later that I met my present wife. We will celebrate our 25th anniversary next year. Though I cannot remember all of which had been revealed during those few precious moments, I would be willing to bet that most of it ended up in my book after having thoroughly investigated that "notion" to my own satisfaction. I finally published my findings in January of 2010. Enjoy! With great anticipation, I am looking forward to your take on it. In the meantime, if you have any questions do feel free to contact me at any time. SPEC :)/>

Tom: Your story was very refreshing! And how resourceful it was for you to change your "perspective" and find the "signs" still there (which may have prompted the Magi to plan a trip, etc...)! I also read JCOPS, and other related things such as Wittness of the Stars by Bullinger. As for me, my days with TWI ended after quite a few (30+) faithful years, when I finally learned that they were just not interested in something I had found. (I guess by then, because of the "fog" - if you remember that time - there was sort of a "ban on new research", known only within the "inner circles" such as the Corps, and Clergy, etc. - but I had to find out the hard way!) :asdf:/> When any new research came along, I guess FLAGS went up, and the machinery was set in motion to discourage it. Pitifully though, I didn't realize that --- Because of the nature of my "wonderful discoveries" I was minded to only share it with Corps and above, because just a little of it differed from what they had been teaching in PFAL. (Later I thought it best to only share it with the "ordained" Revs.) I just didn't want it getting out of hand, or start a stink by sharing it with others first, before the "leader...." was made privy to it. I believe I was acting commendable in God's eyes. Instead of noticing their non-interest, I chose to think that the "Limp and Legion" (Ha!) Corrdinators I was trying to share it with were just "too busy" to take it all in, and if I were patient enough, eventually they would see it. (My meetings with them were rather brief, and their calendars were always full, as usuual.) So I didn't mind the wait. What I hated though, was that I was never able to conclude anything by the time they had to leave on another assignment -- and i would have to start over with his replacement! :asdf:/> I did that over and over for a decade or so. (What a chump I was, supposing they would really appreciate this "great stuff", once they got up to speed with it!) Personally, I would rank the level of my findings up with their Athletes of the Spirit discovery - for which they did a full production, with an orchestra, etc! IMHO What I found could have made a FAR GREATER impact even all of that, but they just didn't care enough to just look at it with an open heart! And boy -- how they would have soaked it all in had they done so!! It was right up their alley! Truth is, later on I realized it was neither their lack of interest nor my inability to make it plain to them all those years - AND it was also not the adversary keeping it from them somehow (for I am sure they would have loved it). After a long battle, when I finally realized I was getting nowhere, I left them. After coming here to GreaseSpot, and seeing how they really did things at TWI, It was then then that I realized that it was God himself who had organized things so they would not have my research for themselves! If they had really seen its value, they would surely have stolen it from me - just as they had done to many others before me. And even if the adversary had truly been involved anyways, it was God who allowed it to be so! (God takes the wise in their own craftiness!) I guess God thought this good enough to protect it from their greedy little hands so I could enjoy it, and make it available to everyone who wants it, and not have it hidden in some tiny, second-rate bookstore for a few chosen people to have --- and with somebody ele's name on it! Ha! Ha! I sould have wised up long before I did and saved myself fropm another 12 years or so with them, huh? (Talk about being patient to a fault --- my bad! --- LOL) So, anyways - now it is mine alone - for it is published worldwide, in a book. Gee....why am I telling you all this detail? Oh yeah! Part of what I had found relates to this thread --- sorry for getting carried away, and for all of the ranting, Tom.... ...I'll try to be brief now. ----- What I saw basically was a direct correlation between the 7 days in Genesis One and the 7 Administrations. (Nuff of that for now!) Anyways, I find it curiously interesting that the only place in Genesis that talks about the stars just happens to be on the 4th day, which (according my "vast:" research) corresponds to the 4th administration - which is the Christ Admin, or Gopspel Period - where we just happen to find the records of the Magi, and the birth of Jesus Christ, etc. (Pretty cool stuff, I think!) Even the word "signs" found during the 4th day is "simeon" in the LXX, meaning God's announcing of some important event (or significant person) to come. And the word for "seasons" there denotes a specific time and place, like an "appointment". Just think of that in light of the Magi coming at the right time and place to see something of great significance!!! I guess what I'm trying to say is: that I am convinced about the Word being written in the stars, and can appreicate what you found with your nice "software". BUT! --- If anyone can come along and simply show me something which makes even more sense, I will naturally change my position in a hearbeat ! Now --- of course I realize that my "premise" sounds a little wild and crazy (and to some, downright ridiculous!). But basically, the few things I did mention about the 4th day, etc, are not just coincidences. I have found literally hundreds (if not thousands!) of other similar parallels which tie my "notion" together about the 7 days and administrations complimenting each other throughout the Word. Now, all of that cannot just be coincidental, can it? Anyways, my book is entitled Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible, should you want to see more. You can find it easily enough if you want, and Amazon will let you see quite a bit of it by "looking inside". Thanks for your patience. SPEC :)/> Melvin W. Elliott

Ok, Ok - why make you wait? Here's a brief look at it... Re 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen… (Now of course we know this record has to do with that which will happen in the future, concerning Israel - and nobody will really know all the details surrounding those events except those who will be living though it.) Strangely though, this first letter actually also has a lot in common with the first time in the Bible - in the Paradise of Eden, which concerns the first man, Adam. We all know the story: Adam fell short in his obligation to God by accepting that which Eve brought him to eat from the tree God had commanded him not to partake of. God's desire should have been his first priority instead of what his wife wanted. As a result, they were both expelled from Eden, etc… Let me put that in other words for you: (1) By deciding not to obey the one and only commandment given to him, Adam fainted in his obligation toward God. (2) By eating the forbidden fruit, Adam left his first love (who should have been God) by choosing to love his wife first instead - by doing what she wanted instead of what God wanted. (3) What resulted is what we commonly refer to as the fall of man. Of course you have noticed the underlined words in the verses above - do you consider that interesting? "But wait --- there's more!" Now - compare the promise at the end of the letter in verse 7 with something also found in Eden, during the first administration. Re 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. SPEC :)/>

You betcha I do, pal! Your request is yet another part of what "I found". Patience, please...it's coming! SPEC :)/>

My take on this is that most preterists are merely lured into supposing that all prophecy has been fulfilled by comparing events in the book of Revelation with old and new testament records to find similarities. Some of today's prognosticators go further than Scripture itself, while exploring all the possibilities that seem to exist between Revelation and events even beyond the time when all Biblical records were finally written down - by also taking into account events which have happened since 100 AD or so - even until now! It's not difficult to find such things within the Bible, for this concept does exist and is indeed valid. But the truth about the events written in the OT is that they were indeed "shadows of things to come". It's a true saying that history tends to repeat itself. That which will occur during the time of the book of Revelation will be as a mirror image, paralleling that which has already happened in times past. Though these events will merely be a reflection of those same types of things, they will not correspond with those similar records in every detail. In reality though, many things will actually become much worse in scope! For instance, we have yet to record any hailstones that ever weighed a "talent" (See Rev 16:21), which - in our English system of measuring - is 50 pounds! :o/> (Even the largest one on record to-date only weighed in at 2.25 pounds.) Not only does the book of Revelation have references to former and future things, but it also contains many things which are of value to us during our present time as well! Therefore, in its true light it is seen as "eternal truth" which is good for all time - the past, the present, and the future! However, the book of Revelation was not written concerning these former or future events themselves. In truth, those were merely written as examples for us that we may learn something by! When we approach that book seeking details on how to apply godly principles, then we will have something which will help us excel in life while we're here upon Earth! The simple truth we can glean from studying the book of Revelation is not about what people did in the past, or what some will be doing in the future. It's really about what we desire to accomplish for ourselves today! Spec :)/>

Great insight, sir! It's not as though the man was stupid enough to say in one breath that his desire was for us to see the originals, (indicating that he had somehow seen them himself) and then turn right around and teach us that there are no originals. At least I will give the man some credit for brains. But the real point here is that he wanted us to believe that he DID have access to the originals - not the documents themselves, but from their SOURCE - because God spoke to him often. It's funny also that, although he taught us that we should not put our trust in men, but in God, many times he did say, "Trust ME on this one." - like he did concerning the "original sin" in CF&S. That's about as close as one would get to saying he was as God himself, without really saying it in so many words. We are supposed to hold God in awe and esteem, and certainly VP wanted that from his followers. (And he rather expected it from the Corps!) SPEC :)

This is a very interesting topic, waysider! My replys (with boxes) are in red. It is rather interesting (as waysider pointed out) that VP was setting the stage early to hold his followers in AWE of his "special knowledge"...Wasn't he rather boasting when he said God spoke to him audibly, saying he would "show him the Word like it hadn't been known for centuries, if he would only teach it."? In a subtle way, he (again) was elevating himself above everyone who had not yet heard God speaking out loud to them - or whoever would, for that matter. (I often wonder if he really heard out loud from God himself.) Somewhere in PFAL, VP was mocking theologians who said, "I've got the ANSWERS!" (anyone remember that one?). Funny, isn't it - he didn't consider it mocking when it was himself who HAD THE ANSWERS! I remember once at a Rock of Ages where he was teaching in the big top one night, expounding upon some details within the concept of administrations which were way beyond PFAL. He was saying stuff like, "You don't read the past into the present, or the present into the past, etc." He sounded so authoratative because he spoke slowly, and had long pauses between statements. I know many who supposed God was giving it to him right there on the spot, just by the way he deliberated his teaching. Later on, when I was reading Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible", I noticed that a great amount of everything he had said in PFAL was already in that book - and many times VERBATIM! In fact, that book reads just like PFAL - not just the learning but even the examples were the same, but spoken as if they were "his own". If you have ever read that book, it looks every bit like it was the blueprint for the PFAL class. And it is "curious" how he never let on that he was quoting from that book. If someone had never pointed that book out to me, I may have never really realized the extent of the "theft" of it within PFAL. As waysider had pointed out: "He was a master manipulator of nuance." Maybe this will give us all more to elaborate on. SPEC :)

How wonderfully put, Twinx! Amazingly enough, the thing about the long black robes just never ocurred to me...interesting point. Actually, the color aspect of my study didn't appear until 7 years into the research. I started discovering it quite by accident while "playing around" with my (then) favorite chapter in the Bible, Genesis One, one Saturday morning. At first, I thought I was the only one to have seen it (in our time). As I learned more about it, the notion started becoming so comfortable and obvious to me that I was "sure" somebody else must have seen it in the world today. After searching the net for indications (for about 3 years), I had found some attempts at such a thing, but it seems nobody had been able to put it all together as I had done. The main reason for this was their lack of understanding about biblical administrations, which was where my book actually got its start. It is within that realm that many of the "missing pieces" lie. Not to act "proud" in the wrong way, I believe I have taken the concept of administations (or "dispensations", as some have called them throughout the centuries) to new heights. I believe I may be the first one to really have them correct. It amazes me to have seen this pattern in nature. As you started to indicate, Twinx, the colors in our frequency range are seen quite vividly, yet in nature there exists the same spendor in other ranges which are not visible to our eyes. For instance, many moths look grey and dingy to us, but they see each other in beautiful arrays of color because their vision is tuned to the ultraviolet spectrum. Things in this world are much more intricate and wonderful than we humans can appreciate. And the closer we look, the better it gets! Well, I better shut up before I starting writing my book again right here... SPEC

Thank you Galen - that was kind of you. As it is written, "Rejoice with them that do rejoice..." (Ro 12:15) Spec

Thanks to all my friends, my first book is now a finished reality and is currently available online! To be among the very first to see it, you may order an advanced copy directly from my publisher - even before its "official worldwide release date" of January 18th, 2011. Just click the link at the end of this post. Enjoy! For those of you who do not know me, I have always loved researching the Bible. Although I am no longer with TWI, I do admit that it was there where I first received keys as to how to do Biblical research. Although a lot of it was just common sense, I admit I did learn a few things from them. Since leaving, I do find that most of those same keys have always been around…here and there…but it was nice to have them all in one package in their foundational class. Ironically, it was my interest in Biblical research that got me into TWI in the first place, yet it was my own research which provided a way out of there for my wife & I! It seems they were only interested in what they had already published or were promoting at the time, and there was no room for anything new, expecially from someone like me! (I was never in the Corps, and it had been years since I ran a fellowship.) I tried my best to show them, but to no avail. Yes, they liked the way I taught (as long as it was "the present truth", as they saw it); many did manage to laugh at my jokes - and they really loved my wife & I performing music at Region Meetings, etc. But when it came to what I loved most…or what I truly believed God was showing me…they had little or no interest at all. Believing God would not want these discoveries hidden again for centuries, I decided to publish them for the world to see. For those who enjoy seeing how the physical realm relates and aligns with the spiritual; how the natural and supernatural compliment one another, this should be very exciting to see. For those who like science and physics, I have shown how God has displayed the principle of the refration of light into its spectrum of color right in the very first chapter of Genesis! (Now you can understand the rainbow as my avatar and my pen name as Spectrum..) :) When you get right down to it, in one way or another, the entire Bible can be summed up into just one word…LIGHT! God is light, the scriptures are called light, Jesus Christ was referred to as great light, and even among unbelievers, people generally see good things as light and evil things as darkness. So when God said Let there be light, what was he implying? He wants the good to be seen. He wants the truth to be shared. By publishing this book, I believe I am following that first instruction which the Master Author pennned. I do hope you all enjoy reading this work, which is the result of over 20 years of research. I know it is not 100% perfect…nothing man does is; but it is the best I can do. I look forward to your comments and honest critique. I also have great anticipation to see other related facets of this diamond, as you observe them with your own scope of the Bible. I know I have just found the tip of the iceburg. Thanks for listening, and enjoy! To obtain an advanced copy of this book directly from my publisher, you may click this link: Genesis One On His Majesty's Service, Mel (SPEC)

Excuse me all for sounding trite, but I believe the end is near (or should be) for this topic. The points have been well-made concerning TWI’s method of “research”. I fear that more posts will merely hide those great points in obscurity – especially among over 400 of them to this point in time. Much has been learned on this, (and a few related topics as well) and I am thankful for that, but lately I have seen nothing I would call provocative on the subject. To me, it is becoming threadbare. (except there probably will still be many more “threads” to come! ) I almost cannot fathom that the sub-topic of the “inerrancy (or not) of the scriptures” (which has been carried on from rather early in this long-winded discussion) has been done so even without a “good working definition of it” -- that is, according to at least one individual. That irony makes me laugh so hard I could just cry! Of late, in my heart I seem reminded of a verse relating to this matter: 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. God considers preaching [that which is proclaimed by a herald or public crier] to be foolishness. [Greek = moria, meaning silliness, i.e. absurdity—from which we derive the word moron! ] God has implied here that it should have been rather obvious for people to realize about Him through “world wisdom”; that is, by noticing his handywork in nature. Truly He is all around us in that respect. In Romans 1:20 He declares there is no excuse for anyone not to believe because there is so much evidence of Him “by the things which were made.” But since He realized people still didn’t believe, somehow it pleased him to even condescend to the moronic level of "preaching" in order that people may yet be saved. It does seem rather silly to go on and on and on about something and still consider it wise to do so. Wisdom is usually stated plainly and simply. But somehow, each party involved in a “debate” supposes that their next pithy point may just be the “final word” on the matter. But alas, such is not the case. Some will believe, and some will not. And that is true no matter how many words are used to try and sway somebody one way or the other. I believe the majority of those who will have changed their minds (or at least learned about the topic at hand) have already done so long ago. And as I said earlier, anyone who has a question along these lines may be hard-pressed to find the best answers when they are hidden in such a “sea of rhetoric”. And this sea may yet become a mighty ocean! The initial posts had done a good job in helping people see the point. Many of the rest only served to “win a few more”, and to “divide the camps”. I perceive that much of what has been shared for the last 100 posts or so may equate to little more than a debate among those who adhere (or not) to the original topic, despite the fact that neither will move an inch. What does it serve to continue providing more fuel for an already raging fire? Pr 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out… I’m afraid that (for me) this topic has become somewhat hackneyed. When will it end? SPEC :)

Twinky: (And Workman, please correct me if I am mistaken.) I believe what Workman is indicating is that he will be posting on his website the results of "his take" of what has been concluded here concerning this topic, after he has had the opportunity to discuss it in detail here first. SPEC :)

I believe I have just coined a new word which describes a method used by TWI: tauntology ! Its meaning (combining taunt & tautology) would be rendered: "The redundant usage of words while goading someone into responding, often in an aggressive manner." One example of tauntology is in session 12 of TWI's foundational class, where they "encourage" the students to speak in tongues for the first time. SPEC :)

OK, Bob – I’ll bite! First, I will do my best to define the word “scripture” as used in 2Ti 3:16, referencing it from 3 different Greek Lexicons (to be less biased). Since it is the word #1124, which was derived from #1125, I have referenced them both. [However, at this time I care not to expand it by referencing the OT equivalents from the Septuagint (LXX).] Then I will add some “food for thought”. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture <Strong’s #1124 - from #1125> is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: OLB – (Online Bible Greek Lexicon): 1124 graphe AV-scripture 51; 51 1) a writing, thing written 2) the Scripture, used to denote either the book itself, or its contents 3) a certain portion or section of the Holy Scripture STR – (Strong’s Greek Lexicon): 1124. graphe; a document, i.e. holy Writ (or its contents or a statement in it):— scripture. NAS – (New American Standard Greek Lexicon): 1124. graphe; from 1125; a writing, scripture:— NAS-Scripture (31), Scriptures (20). ---------------------------------------------------------- OLB: 1125 grapho AV-write 206, writing 1, describe 1, vr write 1; (Total of 209) 1) to write, with reference to the form of the letters a) to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material 2) to write, with reference to the contents of the writing a) to express in written characters b) to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record c) used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT) d) to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions 3) to fill with writing 4) to draw up in writing, compose NAS: 1125. grapho; a prim. vb.; to write:— NAS-read (1), sent this letter (1), write (37), writes (1), writing (14), written (117), wrote (20). (Total of 191) STR: 1125. grapho; a primary verb; to "grave," especially to write; figuratively, to describe:— describe, write(-ing, -ten). ================== The following is the first usage of this word graphe for scriptures: Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures <1124>, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Jesus was referencing Ps 118:22-23 and Is 28:16 (among others) from the OT. He called these “scriptures”. Similar NT references to these are in Mk 12:10-11, Lk 20:17, Act 4:11, Ro 9:33, Eph 2:20, and 1Pe 2:4-8. So, (according to Jesus and others) writings in the OT are considered “scriptures”. Now, Bob – about your “pattern”. (And by the way, for those who suppose we may be starting with some “premise” that there IS a pattern, and then looking for things to substantiate it – be advised! We suspect there may be a pattern, and are merely searching for indicators to see if one exists strongly enough to name it as such.) Correct me if I am wrong, Bob. I believe your desire is to ascertain whether or not Paul’s reference to “scriptures” relates to that which was written after Pentecost – correct? Concerning verses written by Paul containing these words (1124 & 1125), I find the vast majority of their usages refer to his quoting of OT records in reference to that which he was trying to communicate. Much of what he taught and shared seemed to be in this manner – showing that truths he desired for people to understand had their roots in OT scripture. He wrote many personal letters. It seems he used his “scope” of the OT scriptures to properly judge and give his insight as to how to deal with situations that emerged among the people – because this just “made sense” to him. Isn’t that the way most of us communicate – using our knowledge, skills, logic, and experience to relate to “the truth”? The Pauline epistles show how he dealt with the “problems of the day”, referencing visits to the brethren, personal confrontations at times, and letters to others at times (believers and unbelievers). These all seem to show this same manner of teaching, using wisdom from the OT, wit, culture of the times, and personal experience. If one were to just do a superficial reading of these letters, it might not seem as though it were more “Godly inspired” than it was “just making natural sense of things”. But my take on this (and this is my personal thinking) is that Paul was inspired of God to share specific things from his “repertoire”, rather than to just blab about what made sense to him, as I am doing right now. (Or am I?) But there seems to be an exception to this case when it comes to his letter to the Ephesians, for example. Much wisdom is in that epistle, yet I can find little reference to OT scripture in it, except perhaps “in principle”. This “grace he was given” is something uniquely his own, and certainly this “mental scripture” (if you please) was what fueled the rest of his ministry and the other things I have mentioned already. Certainly God allowed him to be “privy” to something NEW, which we only have vague refences to here and there, except that through his writings it may be possible to obtain from God something similary “new and personal” for ourselves, just as he did. Here are a couple of referecnes to his “revelation”: 2 Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven… …4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter… …7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. Ga 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul definitely had received something unique. Maybe this “gospel” is his “scripture”. Perhaps more could be revealed if we expanded the search to include words related to “scripture” and “written” such as rhema and logos, etc. Nuff for now…I’m tired! Ec 12:12…much study is a weariness of the flesh. SPEC :)

DAMN'D GOOD POST WORDWOLF!! I say again, "Good show!" Hearing it the way you put it makes so much sense - and believe me, I am a "hard nut to crack" at times. But I'm with you now on this matter! I loved the logic you used about how "our spirit" (which is a little bit of His) can do something His cannot! Ridiculous! And to them "phenomenon" seemed to cover everything else they could not explain - sort of like the "catch all verse" used by relgions to "shut down" questions from their followers: De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God... Yes, TWI certainly understood how to put God in a box. So many times I was told to "read my blue book" again for everything from "soup to nuts". Well, maybe they should take notice of it again themselves - especially the chapter on "Are You Limiting God?" ! Thanks again for a great post WordWolf! You "hit the nail on the head" with this one. SPEC :)