spectrum49

Steve: I simply loved your "Japanese style" poetry! This might be a "bit off topic", but you got me going, pal! (I only wish to make you laugh, as you did me.) Nearby where I live is a very disgusting lake which people make fun of a lot. Because of industry, it has been horribly contaminated with "God knows what". (And perhaps its even a bit radioactive!) Some time ago there was a haiku contest in our area. I submitted the following (not that I might win) but perhaps to make the judges laugh a bit among themselves: Onondaga Lake shines in the night like the sun... Poor fish all aglow! SPEC

You're most welcome, Mark! (And I'm in Liverpool "Noo Yawk" , a northern suburb of Syracuse.) It's good of you to want to incorporate "idios" into your commentary. And --- I will "fine tune this" just a tad-bit, so as not to go completely along with what TWI did with all of that. As they put it, we (humans) are completely in control of whether or not we want to use these wonderful evidences. And if we choose not to use any of these, (because we're either lazy, or just plain apathetic about "our responsibility" to learn and to DO "all 9 all the time", according to how they taught it should be done), then I guess God's just out of business, huh? (How's that for being "snarky"? Ha! Ha!) Seriously though: The way I see it, God (or perhaps even to include Jesus Christ as well, for all I know) is the one who energizes these. And when he does, it's always in accordance with our willingness to follow where he's leading us. (To me, that's the "as the man wills" part.) And get this! In my experience, much of that seems to transpire even while I'm unaware it was actually happening that way. Let me explain: Many times I thought I had a good idea. But later on, I discovered that it truly wasn't "my damned good idea" anyway. (Ha!) It was God's doing, because it was really HIS IDEA in the first place! And (of course) I went right along with it, simply because it just seemed to make so much sense to me at the time. (Again, this is an example of "as the man wills".) In truth, God was leading me right where he knew I wanted to go. (No problem! --- LOL) But my problem with this used to be that I failed to recognize his having "worked in me to will and to do of his good pleasure". Rather, I prided myself in having come up with those "great ideas". Using hindsight, I see this more and more in the poems and music I've written, and even in much of what I've said and done. (That is, when I was really trying to do something good!) But these days, things are a bit different. I'm very careful not to try and "take credit" for everything wonderful in my life, as though I DID IT ALL. (As I was saying, it just might be God's doing anyway!) God deserves the credit for what he does...not me! (I only wonder just how much I should ever honestly try to take any of the credit for! --- Hmmm...) I hope this makes at least "some sense" to you. (And "sorry" if I was being too wordy while explaining it.) SPEC

Waysider: That was the funniest thing I ever remember you saying, My side ended up hurting SOOOO BAD!! SPEC

WAYSIDER: I thought you might enjoy this ..especially if you have never heard it. (It's a spoof on plagiarism.) Tom Leher was a real genius...and way ahead of his time, too! (And you thought I was sarcastic and witty --- I ain't got nothing on this guy!) Perhaps this wasn't one of his "best little ditties".... ...But I believe you would laugh your a** off at some of his other songs! Among my favorites are: "My Home Town" "I Hold Your Hand in Mine" AND --- I know you will LOVE this one! ... "The Vatican Rag" Please listen to these, and tell me what ya think! Spec

Why --- Thank You, Waysider! I do the best I know how: Right or wrong, at least you can see from my work how I came up with the stuff. And then it makes it a lot easier to "unravel it" for me, if you can! (Or better yet...perhaps what I said might even make sense enough for you to adopt it for yourself --- if it seems "finer" than what you already have, that is.) Peace, Brother! Spec

x Well, I'm glad you liked my little joke, Waysider! OINK...OINK...OINK... (Or should I have said, NYUK, NYUK, NYUK? --- I love the 3 Stooges!) The chart is just that...only a chart. (LOL) I have emailed your book already. The details of how I came up with the chart are in the "scripture references" within the book. Perhaps it will STILL not make sense to you in the end. And that's OK! But at least (having viewed "my evidence") you'll see the "logical way" I put that chart together. ENJOY! (If you can, that is!) AND: If you ever come up with a "better way" to divide those administrations, I'm "all ears"! Mel

1. The truth is: I am not afraid one damned bit, knowing that most of you here are truly wonderful folks at heart. (That was merely a figure of speech...and "lumps" was a slight attempt to be humorous: OOPS...MY BAD...Ha!) Besides, the vast majority of things said in this Topic seem to do with the past (real life) experiences of those who were (or were closely associated with) the ordained clergy of TWI, for which my comments were surely lacking. 2. "gift ministries"? Not per se, in the Scriptures. I had rather hoped you would "read between the lines" a bit more. 3. Yes. I suppose I was quoting VPW. (Not always a good thing to do here at GS, huh?) Perhaps I should work this a bit on my own, and put things in my own words...don't you think? 4. From what little I've seen here at GS thus far, it appears that VPW considered himself as the sole apostle in the Way...and in the entire world, for that matter! Hell ... who else could qualify for such a lofty title? In truth, the man was a "master plagiarizer", wasn't he? --- If you consider my "idea" to be rubbish (or merely "without a proper foundation"), just say so...and I'll be most happy to delete the entire post. (And I'm not trying to be facetious....really!) In my heart, it's truly but a small thing for me to "prove" from the Scriptures anyway.) All that aside, let me say that I have a lot more to learn as to what doctrines of the Way were indeed rubbish in themselves. You who have actually "served in the trenches" do see many nuances of their errors which are rather obscure to most (like myself) who merely "dabble" with Biblical research. I'm amazed at the depth of the truth I see here at GS. But there's just SO MUCH TRUTH here, that it's like being in an ocean. (It seems such a pity that "sometimes" I seem to have a larger appetite (in my mind) for many of these wonderful nuances you've all come up with --- which far exceed the actual size of my belly to contain.) So, I'll just "muddle through" --- and try to enjoy the coffee here as best I can...while reserving some of my time for the "more important things" --- like making dinner for my wife & I sometime soon tonight ... (Ha! Ha!) Spec

My friend TLC, Of course you realize it was never my wish to "waste your time" with any of this. Also, you must realize that (even though I was somewhat elaborate in my latest post here) I've barely scratched the surface of such an enormous "new concept". And what's worse? For this moment, desiring brevity and putting a lot of "trust" in what must be a vast overall scope of the entire Word in your life, I have taken many "shortcuts" on your behalf in hope that some of this will "ring somewhat spiritually true" in your eyes. AND I've done all of this without "any documentation" from the Word! From this point, I can only envision that (should you see my book) there will be quite enough "evidence" to support my findings. And if not…I'm the first one to admit I still have much to learn from others about the Scriptures. And believe it or not, I'm happy when someone is able to show me (via chapter and verse, mind you!) where I have erred in my thinking; and have no problem whatsoever adapting to something even finer than I had previously thought. That said, let me reiterate that I've taken much liberty thus far to "put things on your plate which may not be indicative of that which constitutes a proper diet". Such is the chance we all take at times when daring to use a lot of "shortcuts", in hope of getting somewhere a little faster than normal. As far as the colors go, (among many other things which I didn't elaborate upon) surely I am aware of the "millions of colors" which are found along the entire electromagnetic spectrum of light. But again, my purpose was to attempt being rather brief and "cut to the chase" while attempting to possibly whet your appetite, having known you for such a brief time thus far. So my friend, (when you have the time) do take a look at the chart I sent. And if this all still seems interesting after that, then do request my book. (It's about 270 pages, which I believe is laid out fairly straightforward, and is devoid of a lot of "PhD language"…so it should go rather quickly for a man such as you.) And after you're "up to speed" with this info, I can envision you helping me to take this "strange sounding concept" far beyond what I consider it to be at this moment, which (in reality) is but a mere drop in an ocean of spiritual truth. Until then, God Bless You… …and I wish you Godspeed! Your friend and brother, Spec PS: Oakspear...you are also welcome to a free PDF copy of my book. If you want it, simply email me at melliot2@twcny.rr.com. Bless Ya! (Mel)

OK TLC! I see you really are serious, so I will invest a bit of time with you. (Sorry if I seemed to come off a bit "haughty" to this point.) I've also picked up a bit of info on you by perusing GS. (I'm not a "troll", though! LOL) You seem to have "been around a lot", and are certainly no novice. In light of that, I will try to be more concise, and cut to the chase as best I can, so as not to waste too much of your precious time. (I'm truly "honored" that such a one of your caliber has taken an interest in "my work"…which is a hell of a lot more than I ever saw at TWI!) You appear to be a patient man, and don't seem to mind what others say which might sound a bit "different". (Many just jump to conclusions ahead of time, and then either "bash" or just drop the whole thing.) But not you! In my eyes, you are evidencing the qualities of a man of wisdom: Pr 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. Pr 29:11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards. After when? After he has taken the time to consider the whole matter, as it were. So…this fool will speak his mind, and I trust our conversation will be directed as efficiently as seems feasible. You are nearly "perfect" with what Bullinger presented concerning administrations (from his book How to Enjoy the Bible). I'm attaching a MS Word Document I made which compares the findings of Bullinger, Wierwille, Spirit & Truth, and "my own take" on Biblical administrations. I believe this will help you quite a bit to see precisely where I'm coming from. (And I do hope you can read it well enough with whatever formatting GreaseSpot provides on it's site when I upload it there.) [As an aside: The Spirit & Truth Ministry seems to be closer to me than all the rest. (Not to "bash", but John Lynn visited my area quite some time ago…and he seemed not the least bit interested in what I had found. (Besides, he's also "pretty darned busy with his own stuff", having left S&T to head up another ministry: The Living Truth Fellowship.) However, I do plan to see John Schoenheit soon…and he seems very interested, as do you. Perhaps he will "give me a listen as well". We shall see…] Now, what remains are EW, VP (and me). They both agree pretty much until the Gospel Period. Bullinger (most likely not seeing the distinction between the "bride & body" of Christ) included our "Grace Period" within his 4th admin, which he called "Ecclesia: Grace". And we know that VP made 2 admins where Bullinger had only the one. (And both of them begin another admin at the point of the so-called "rapture".) Now this is interesting! Although I had not seen Bullinger's book How to Enjoy the Bible while doing my own study, I had divided VP's 6th admin (called The Appearing) into two eras. Later on (when I had finally come across EW's book) I was very surprised to find that he had divided this time into two eras as well! (which he called Judgment, and Theocratic…or Millennial) And (of course) they both agreed that the 7th administration was after all was finished at God's Great White Throne, which they called the Eternal State…and Final Paradise (as I said earlier). So it remains that I seem to have found the best of both worlds, so to speak: For I agreed with VP about the 4th and 5th times, and also with EW about the 5th and 6th. The only difference is that I called EW's the 6th and 7th times, which (of necessity) would make what they called the 7th time…my 8th one (IF you desire to continue counting, that is…as a recommencement). Otherwise, you can just begin again by calling that Paradise as the "first time of the 3rd Earth", just as we did with Eden…which is the "first time of the 2nd Earth". I trust that's all clear enough to this point. (So much for the comparison of these various works on Biblical administrations.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now, I have another "difference" with both EW and VP. I do not agree with their 2nd division, which they both called Patriarchal. Rather, I see that era (which I call the Time of Ignorance) to involve the events from the "expulsion" from Eden…to also include ONLY the account of the Great Flood of Noah's time. AND---I have good reasons for that, as you will see later on. (And: "I thank you in advance, my friend!" for your patience while you view my "supporting scriptural evidence". Bless you!) Although this should be quite enough for now, I feel that just a bit more explanation may be of interest to you concerning "my chart". You'll see that I've included a "couple more 7's" there. (These are like "additional layers" in support of what I call a "wonderful pattern of 7's" throughout the Word.) First of all, (in the white boxes) you'll notice that the first 7 manifestations are in the very same order as they're listed in 1Co 12:8-10 --- lining up with both the 7 days in Gen 1 and with the 7 admins. Also, you see that I've colorized these. (I actually "stumbled upon" this most amazing aspect about 7 years or so into my research.) These 7 colors (a different one for each day) are "basically" in the same order as they appear in a rainbow from bottom to top! Could it be that God (who calls himself "light" in 1Jn 1:5) is bragging in the very first chapter of his book, saying: "Hey Kids! Look what your heavenly father can do with light!"? Surely, God (who designed nature) just might know a little something about how to refract light into what we call the visible spectrum! There are certainly other "things in 7's" throughout the Word in support of all of this…as even more overlapping layers…making a very grand overall pattern to be sure! Not to get too involved here, but (just for your consideration and overall scope) three more of the "patterns of 7s" are: The "letters to the 7 churches" (in Rev 2ff), the "7 angels sounding" (in Rev 8ff), and the "7 angels (in Rev 16ff) pouring out their vials of wrath" --- or should that be spelled viles? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think this is quite sufficient for the time being! But don't worry…I have a "plan" which will make all of this much simpler for you: After leaving the Way, I finished my manuscript and published the info in a book entitled Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible, which is now available worldwide. (And NO…I will not try to "sell you one"!) I would be happy to email you a PDF copy.) If you're truly "intrigued" by some of this, then simply email me at melliot2@twcny.rr.com and I will send you one "forthwith". (But please don't tell my publisher…as they do frown on freebies --- God Bless You, my brother! On His Majesty's Service, Mel Elliott, Liverpool NY Administration Chart - x4.doc

Huh? Bullinger never equated the 7 days in Genesis 1 to "correlate" with the 7 Biblical administrations, as a Table of Contents to the Bible. (I did that myself!) And...both he and VP concluded that New Jerusalem was the 7th administration. (But I said that the 7th admin ends at God's throne, and that New Jerusalem is the 8th one (if you keep on counting upwards, that is), which Bullinger called the "Eternal State" and VP, the "Final Paradise", or "Glory Administration"). And---my referencing Bullinger's Number in Scripture was merely to show how similar in scope the numbers 1 and 8 are. And also within my post (above) there is nothing mentioned concerning how Bullinger divided Biblical administrations...and what I said was (very obviously, I thought) different than his rendering. Are you being funny with me or something...pulling my chain, as it were? (I wish no harm.) Spec

Please excuse me for "butting in". Perhaps what I have to say belongs more appropriately in the Doctrinal Forum, but I'm not afraid to post it here anyways. (And I'll gladly take "whatever lumps I have coming" for doing it…Ha! Ha!) Although I was never "ordained" by TWI, I have always considered that the operation of gift ministries is an "ongoing thing" with God, just as are the "manifestations"; and as such, he can (and does) energize these whenever (and to whomever) he wants…for his own "special reasons", according to the willingness in a person's own heart to follow through with such a thing. Nevertheless, I do so love "patterns" in the Word; and I believe to see one here: I've always had a fondness for things which are "numbered" in the Word. To me, these are extra-special. Many Christians already appreciate the fact that the order of the words in the Bible is perfect. So then: Consider the possible extreme importance of that which God takes the extra time to actually number in order (which is already ordered perfectly to begin with) --- To this, I say "WOW!" With this in mind, here's something quite remarkable: 1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that --- miracles. (!!!) Please take special notice of how these gift ministries are actually numbered 1st, 2nd,and 3rd. As I've indicated above, there has to be something special about these, because they are actually numbered in order. As a general rule, an apostle is one who brings new light to God's people. It may be old light, but is certainly new to those receiving it. (Certainly, I don't wish to put these apostles in a box, as though that's all they really do. But that you might see where I'm coming from a bit quicker, this particular attribute of an apostle speaks clearly as to the special order I'm concerned with in this verse.) Although this apostle may surely do many other things as well, his primary function is to provide new light. By either studying the Word, or by revelation from God (or perhaps a combination of both) he may have many new things at hand which God's people have a present need of. (And do keep in mind, we just read that these apostles are mentioned as first!) Next in order (mentioned as second) are prophets. Although (to many) an acceptable simple definition of a prophet is one who speaks for God, I would like to focus upon another of their "special traits", just as I did with the apostles. And that is, being ones who (at times, like Agabus) foretell the future, they have a particularly adept sense of timing—that is, they are guided of God about just what may happen next, and then after that, etc...in course of time. Now consider these first two things: We have an apostle who has many new things which God wants made known to his people, and a prophet who understands just which of all those things may be needed immediately within the church, and also what would be desired just after that, etc. We can surely understand that both the apostle and prophet might be fairly good teachers themselves; but there's "yet another in the mix" who is particularly proficient at that…and who must be the one to proclaim these truths to God's people...as only he can. (Which brings us to the third ones mentioned — the teachers!) The teacher learns from the apostle of the wonderful things that God had recently revealed to him. And (along with the assistance and guidance of the prophet) he learns what God desires to be given to the people right away...and then what to teach next, and after that, etc. NOW—With all of this in mind, precisely what does the verse continue on to say? "...after that, miracles..."(!!!) After what? After the process of receiving some wonderful new light, and having it taught at just the right time, and in just the right manner…we see a glimpse here that miracles will absolutely follow. (Hmmm!) And that's not all! As we continue reading, we see: "…then gifts of healings"! Could it truly be that miracles and healings are the direct result of hearing the right Word at the right time, being taught by a man of God with a true teaching ministry? I think there just may be something to all of this—how about you? What if we would actually dare to attempt recognizing the apostles, prophets and teachers among us...and then allow them the freedom and privilege to serve God's people the way only they can, as a powerful threefold cord—that these miracles and healings would "naturally" take place...just as it seems they should! In times past, I've actually seen it work this way. But I'll leave it up to you all whether or not this is "truly justified" by the scriptures I've shown. SO --- Whatcha think, my friends? Is this perhaps how God really designed it to work? And to you who have been "ordained" in times past: Have you ever seen it work in precisely this manner? (And there is "more of this here"…beyond the healings…but I'll stop now…for brevity's sake.) Spec

Thanks Mark...whoever you really are! I'll take a look at those (in detail) very soon. However (for the present) I did scan them a bit, and have just one comment which you might appreciate: The word "severally" in 1 Co 12:11 is actually the word "idios", and this is the only place it's translated as such. And in 2 Pet 1:20 is the only rendering of idios as "private". All the rest of the 144 times (or so, I believe off-hand) it is used, it's translated "one's own", "his own", "her own", etc...which makes perfect sense of translating it "private". (BTW...we get "idiosyncrasy" from that word.) But "severally" is truly misleading, for sure! (And grossly inconsistent, I might add.) For if we use "his own" instead of "severally", it is then unmistakable as to whom "he" refers to---which is the man---and not God...as such: (And I personally do truly loathe the capital "He", which appears [or is implied] in most of the modern translations.) 1 Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man his own as he will. (It cannot be anything other than "as the man himself wills"!) Now truly, it's God (or perhaps even Jesus Christ, for all I really know) who energizes these manifestations. But this is still done in accordance with what the man desires in the depth of his heart. And even if he's somewhat oblivious to it himself at the moment, it's still what he really wants anyway. (Ha!) Does this make sense to you? Spec

In another Topic, TLC said to me, "Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?" So here goes! To begin with, I will simply state what he requested... The basic premise: In a nutshell, Genesis 1 seems to act as a curious sort of Table of Contents to the Bible, whereby all truth is parsed into 7 aspects, which (together) combine to form one entire unit of truth. (Simple enough for now!) [More specifically: I see a direct correlation between the "7 days in Genesis 1" and the "7 Biblical Administrations", which (together) comprise all of the time of the Earth from Adam in Eden until the judgment at God's Great White Throne.] And from there, I see the Paradise of New Jerusalem as 8th (That is, IF you desire to continue counting upwards.) But if not, then you may just as well begin afresh, by considering it as 1st…because it begins the story of the New Heaven and Earth. (the 3rd Earth, as it were) And the logic behind my reasoning for this "duality" (if you please) is from EW Bullinger's book Number in Scripture, where he shows that the number "1" represents a simple beginning, while "8" represents a brand new beginning. This is similar to considering that there was truly was more to Earth's history prior to Adam in the Paradise of Eden. And in that case, we would call Eden the 8th time…in light of the "7 times" which comprised the so-called first Earth, which came to ruin…just as this Earth will again by the time Armageddon is completed.] And by the way: Nature and science, are literally replete with things along this line! (That is… about counting from 1-7 and then beginning over again.) One example is the diatonic scale, which is the first seven notes in the musical scale: [Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti] You begin with"Do". Continuing on after the first 7 notes, you could either be going "higher" (in which case, the next "Do" would be the "8th note", OR you could just be "starting over" (in which case it would be called the "1st note" again). Get it?] OK…enough premise for now, except to say that the first seven days (one week) are part of a "marvelous pattern which repeats itself over and over again" --- from eternity! Have I discussed it elsewhere?: Surely, but I prefer to begin anew here. It's no bother to me. (Besides, I haven't been to GreaseSpot in a long, long time. I've only returned here again yesterday --- and much of what I had said in times past is either "lost in the shuffle" or "just too hard find again" here.) TLC: I do hope this enough to "get you going". Bless You! And the same to all, Spec

My understanding of oikonomia is from an old Italian friend of mine, who who explained to me that it literally means "It's notta my pig." (oink-a-no-mia) (More to follow soon, my friend...) Spec :)

TLC: Please FIRST SEE my comment at the Topic on "1Co 12-14", and then (as I am still composing it) my thread at your Topic on "oikonomia". Thanks!

Very well put, TLC! Now... Hi TLC! I'm the one to whom you said (in another place…about plagiarism), "Okay, I'll bite. So what is your basic premise, or where might you have discussed it here?" I was preparing the following to post here when I saw your interest in "my findings", so will just do that here as I had planned. But --- I will also soon give a reply to you concerning "your curiosity" at your Topic on "oikonomia", which actually fits a bit better there. (Surely these two aspects are intertwined…but that's more advanced to see, and to do that here…about Biblical administrations…would seem a bit "off topic", although it's truly not (in the broad overview of things, that is)! Anyway, here goes: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Contrary to popular belief, just hearing someone SIT is not "the definitive proof" that someone has been born again. (I know that many of you remember what VP said in PFAL: That "No man can really say that Jesus is lord in his life, except by speaking in tongues." That's dishonest workmanship! 1Co 12:3b actually says, "…no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" [meaning: "The manifestation of the gift of holy spirit"]. And that means all of it, folks! Now of course SIT is surely a part of all that --- BUT this verse certainly does not limit the manifestation of holy spirit to merely speaking in tongues, as if it alone were the only proof whereby you could know whether or not someone is born again. It plainly states that the entire spectrum of the manifestation of the gift of holy spirit is involved. (And---just who are we to judge people by all of that? God forbid!) Even VP himself (speaking in the PFAL class, regarding "his quest" to speak in tongues) admitted that he intentionally spoke in High German to impress (actually to fool) those who were trying to lead him into that manifestation for the first time. And it worked. They really thought he was born again! (But VP knew better….Ha! Ha!) So then, what prevents just anyone from trying a stunt like that? How about others who can speak languages which can sound like tongues to ignorant listeners? How about devil spirits? (Now, just think about that one for a bit --- if you dare!) Nevertheless, it remains entirely possible to know the spirituality (or lack thereof) concerning any individual. This may yet be accomplished via a combination of the manifestations of holy spirit, such as the Word of Wisdom, the Word of Knowledge, and (most especially) the Discerning of Spirits! Even the manifestation of Faith (or, Believing, if you prefer) could be involved. But tongues alone? (BAH! Not a chance to fool me there, pal! --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now…for those who are curious, I seem to have stumbled onto something wonderful concerning how the Word of God is specifically designed (yes…all the way through it, mind you!) to show very simply how to manifest EACH ONE of these manifestations! Now, many will find that statement of mine hard to believe, huh? Yet (when one has ears to hear and eyes to see), this truth is instantly recognizable throughout the Scriptures! In fact, (in light of this) it is my personal belief that if God had wanted to name the Bible himself, he might have entitled it: "How to Walk by the Spirit in Seven Easy Lessons" --- (sort of like an infomercial). And "my way" (actually I believe it's God's way) sure makes more sense than how TWI taught Discerning of Spirits in their Advanced Class! All I got from that dribble was confusion and bewilderment…over the "hundreds of terms" and their inter-connections, like how "they group themselves together like an army", etc. (You know…the 5-star general spirits and their subordinates, etc.) From that point on, I thought I would never understand how to operate that manifestation until I literally (at least) memorized the entire list of devil spirits --- along with how they all "interact with each other" in the spirit realm. BUT --- I give thanks to God for making it so easy for me after all! Now folks, I'm not saying that I have it all down pat…even at this point in time. But you just might be astounded at the "amazing structure" which serves as the basis (or, foundation) of this most important of areas in the Word of God. There truly ARE signposts and keys woven throughout the Bible…that we may learn how to operate the gift of holy spirit in every aspect. (No kidding!) I believe this very point is God's expressed reason for authoring the Scriptures in the first place. All I wish is for a few of you (or even just one interested person) to consider this, so that (possibly together, and eventually) we could make it simpler for everyone to see just how easy God has made it for his kids to use the greatest gift he ever gave! How about it? Who dares give me a listen? ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In hope, Spec PS: [For TLC] This "amazing structure" I speak of concerns the "7 administrations" (and a few "other 7's") which are most curiously woven together throughout the Word of God. I'm composing a "related thread" for your "oikonomia Topic", and will post it there soon. Bless!

I left TWI many years ago. Curiously, it wasn't until after quite some time after I left that I finally realized why none of them (the leadership) was really getting what I had tried so hard to give them---which I believe God showed me himself! (And please believe me folks...my intent here is not to brag.) If they had truly been able to see where I had taken the concept of Biblical administrations (or "dispensations", if you prefer...as each term does have its own merits...) they would SURELY have STOLEN IT FROM ME, and published it themselves...under their own name(s)! It is written that "The laborer is worthy of his hire", which is to say that (in God's eyes) the one who works should be credited accordingly. I knew many people involved in "Way Productions", who foolishly (and most ignorantly) turned over their great poems and music to TWI, and regretted it later on. I too was on that path and would have done so as well...had not God so graciously intervened upon my behalf! As I was saying, I tried my level best to give my work to them --- having researched the matter independently of them for over two decades! While yet with them, I had often wondered just why "they didn't seem to be getting it": [Perhaps (I thought) I wasn't explaining it well enough for them to see it. Or perhaps (as I also considered) they were "just too busy to really listen" as I was attempting to show them what I believed that God himself had revealed to me --- basically "in a moment of time", one fine morning in June of 1988. (But let's just skip all of that for the present time --- thank you!) Eventually, trying to reason it out over a long period of time (with one or another Limb or Region Coordinator), my explanations were becoming even finer and finer. My reasoning had truly become as sound speech, which cannot be condemned, as that verse goes. So the only thing left for me to consider by then was: "How in hell aren't they seeing any of this by now?!!!" The truth is, that those I tried to "teach this to" were not stupid people! Early on, I had quickly learned to limit my discussion on this matter to the "Corps Household" (and then eventually, only to "Ordained Clergy") --- so as not to cause any dissension among the "other followers" (you know...the mere peons...ha ha), should it turn out that I was mistaken about "my findings", after all was said and done. This perplexed me to no end as the years of disappointment and frustration moved along! I wish to spare you all the details of this episode in my life, except to say that (although they would never admit "they didn't care about my research", that was really the truth! (They never gave a rat's a** about what God might have shown me personally as I studied the Scriptures for myself....LOL!!!) So...when I finally had all of their shenanigans I could stand...I left them --- and discovered the wonderful truth of it all at some later point in time...which is this: Thankfully, somehow or other God had blinded their minds to the entire matter, lest they would see its merit---AND STEAL IT FROM ME---and make me mad as a hornet later on, after it was all too late! [bTW...my favorite verse along this line is 1Co 3:19b --- "He [God] taketh the wise in their own craftiness." ] LOL!!! But thank God that this "wonderful personal insight" is NOT HIDDEN AWAY in some obscure little bookstore...courtesy of The American Christian Press...but rather, is now published under my own name --- and available worldwide to whomever wants to "glean" from it! I once tried rationalizing for myself just why Dr. Wierwille may have intentionally plagiarized so much. Didn't he realize he would eventually be found out? (But, of course he did!) My guess...trying to be kind to him...is that he weighed the value of having hordes of believers admiring him (and his supposed "spiritual connection to God") as more weighty than being considered as "a thief of others' works". (But --- any fool should know that the end does not justify the means!) Surely, he did develop an international following, etc --- but in my book, NOTHING CAN TRULY DIMINISH the sheer depravity involved with the pawning off other people's work as one's own! (As Waysider so bluntly put it: "What he did was seriously wrong on multiple levels." Thank you all for listening! If I have "stirred anyone's appetite" along the way (considering just what it was that caused me to leave TWI after serving "faithfully" for over 30 years), then I cordially invite you to inquire further. (It's TRULY AWESOME --- if I do say so myself....LOL) Peace! Spec PS: Has anyone besides myself seen how Bullinger's How to Enjoy the Bible acts as an OUTLINE to Wierwille's Power for Abundant Living? Very interesting indeed! (And all you need do is to simply compare the Table of Contents of each of those two books --- side by side! And which book was written first? Why....Bullinger's, but of course! :)

SKYRIDER: Thanks for the wonderful remarks! BTW, not too long after that incident was when we finally left twi. Outside of that mortgage, we had no other debt (except credit cards, which we paid in full each month when due). Here’s an update: Believe it or not (despite that “loan from the devil”…LOL) we still prospered anyway! We actually paid off that 30-year mortgage in only 5 yrs & 1 mo! No more RENT, and no more MORTGAGE! (Needless to say, under “their rules” we would NEVER have been able to save enough to buy a house outright, with cash…and do it “the right way”!) And I’m embarrassed to tell you just how well our “nest egg” has been doing! Our “autumn years together” in retirement look very bright indeed—because we were able to INVEST the money we might (instead) have paid to either a landlord or a bank.

I took all their classes & stuff (& PFAL alone about 50 times---Ha!), and went WOW three times. But (though invited) I never chose to go Corps. (I guess I just "enjoyed my freedom" too much. — Ha!) I will say that I enjoyed the research—but I'm also a sort of "renegade", so I never truly believed all of it 100%. Ironically though, it was "my own Biblical research" which provided me away out of there after "way too long". (That is, when I finally realized they weren't interested in any "new light"…which might be "an improvement" on PFAL, etc.) Even today, they remain "stuck in their tradition", and are very unwilling to make any changes to their "original indoctrination package"—even if it makes more sense! (I call these "Wierwillites"…LOL.) I'll give you one "funny anecdote" though: One Saturday morning (just out of curiosity) I calculated that we had given our landlord $94,000 over the years—and had nothing to show for it. Shocked, I said to my wife: "Hey sweetie—rules or no rules, we're getting a house!" Within a month, we were living in "the most perfect home you could imagine" for us! (But that's another story in itself. Let me just say that "God is good.") Now (of course) the leadership of TWI didn't take kindly to our "going in debt", and (although we weren't being kicked-out over this) they informed us that we could no longer be fellowship coordinators, join the corps or go "fellow laborers", etc. (And I thought to myself: "That's just fine with me!") However, they all came to our "housewarming". And you should have heard the leaders' remarks then—LOL. One remarked: "What a beautiful party house!" And as we talked, she was saying how great it would be to run classes or even fellowships here—and was already describing (in detail) just where "this or that' could go, etc. I asked her if I might be "privileged to oversee" the class or fellowship meeting in my house. She replied: "No, I'm afraid we'll have to do that. And it's not that we don't love you—it's merely about your mortgage loan from the bank…that's all." After they all left, it did seem "rather curious" to my wife and I how it could be "so wrong for us" to even have this house at all, but "so right for them" to use it"??? That made no sense—and especially that I would have to "let them be in charge" of what goes on in my own house when they came to visit! Hypocrites all! (LOL) Thanks for listening!

Raf - You are most welcome! I call 'em like I see 'em, and I try to be fair to all (even mixing in a bit of humor here and there to "make light" of the errors) with the hope that all will see just how silly we humans can act at times, even though we do know better. According to James 4:1, all the wars that ever happened began with the tongue - by mere words - which developed into arguments and rage, etc. Ja 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ja 3:6, 16 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. - For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. Yes --- sadly we did see that among the posts in this topic of great importance. However, the next two verses reveal a most astonishing and perfectly ordered structure! (So do consider each word and phrase deeply!) 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Whether or not someone believes that wisdom from above, it is nonetheless first pure. If such a thing is communicated properly, it will be as "Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you." (Titus 2:8). It just makes so much sense that nobody can honestly refute it! People will usually either believe it or just walk away, having nothing good to say. But even for those who do accept that wisdom, it may still take a while for it to fully settle in. (After it makes even more sense to them, it eventually does become peaceable.) And even later (when the finer details are seen) it will actually become gentle, and easy to be intreated. At this stage, it has now become so plain to see that one may wonder just what all the trouble was with it at first, while that wisdom still seemed somewhat strange! (Then, we might just look back and laugh at ourselves for acting so silly before we really saw the truth concerning it! Remember - it was indeed pure at first.) But now that it has come full circle (that is, the listener agrees fully with the one who first spoke the wisdom from above) it is full of mercy. Whatever may have transpired at first is not punishable - all of that has been overlooked and graciously forgiven. And (next in line) it is also full of good fruits. Many good things will come of this, now that it is understood enough to be utilized in someone's own personal life - and in his ministry toward others. Next, it is without partiality, and without hypocrisy. It should be freely imparted to ALL, irregardless of who they may be, because God wishes everyone to learn of and apply his wisdom from above, for he is no "respecter of persons" (Eph 6:9b). He does not play favorites. Finally, we see how that wisdom is to be imparted: The good fruits resulted because of the manner in which their seeds were originally planted - in peace, by those who desire peace: "And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." (James 3:18) As long as our true motive is to make peace, our intentions are admirable in God's eyes. We just cannot force feed people. If they are unwilling to listen, then perhaps what you are trying to feed them with is not yet to their liking. So act with kindness by either letting the little matter go and excusing yourself graciously, or perhaps enquire further of the individual that you may discover what you have that he is hungry for - and feed him that instead. Now, that's being a gracious host! If people are to change their minds on something, there is only one way to do it: Ro 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness [Gr: chrestotes, meaning gentleness] of God leadeth thee to repentance? People will only repent (change) when we encourage them gently, with a heart of peace. Spec :)/>

Spec PS: Socks - I posted this prior to seeing that you had more to say - and I just wanted to add that your remarks concerning how we should treat children, babies and toddlers make perfect sense to me.

Interestingly, the Greek word for "goodness" in Ro 2:4 is chrestos, which has also been translated gentle, kind and easy. You seem to have that way about you, and I'm sure that's a blessing to many you speak to. Spec

Yes, truly we have been reconciled to God. Although that is a spiritual reality, it's not as though it's been perfectly accomplished as far as our flesh is concerned. We still must endeavor to control ourselves and keep from acting foolishly (sinning intentionally) when we know better. "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid!" (Ro 6:1-2a) Therefore, Tom was spot-on with his reply! Although it seems an impossible task, we are expected to continue as best we know how in becoming reconciled ever closer to God in our flesh - by imitating what we do understand to be the truth. (Please be patient!) Though we are convinced we cannot completely accomplish such a feat, God does indeed reward us for our meager efforts as we display to him our heart-felt intention to be faithful - by how we conduct ourselves in this life according to what we are sure is right and true in his eyes. Now (concerning the area of what is considered "sinful") this needs further explanation. Ultimately - despite how hard we try - we shall all continue to "blow it" in the flesh, because perfection belongs only to God himself. Yet (understanding this shortcoming of ours, due to being human) he has graciously devised a suitable provision for it within his Word! The question is not then, "How shall we become perfectly righteous in our walk for God" because we know such a thing is utterly impossible to perform. Instead, we should judge within ourselves whether or not we are actually intending to sin! Did we really mean to do that which we knew was wrong? We must always remember that God looks upon our hearts - not upon our flesh! Now, what if we DID do something wrong - intentionally? What should we do then? When we ask according to the truth he will forgive us every single time: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:9) Does this then become our license to continue doing what we know is wrong and just get away with it, asking for and receiving a pardon for those same things over and over again on a continual basis? No way! "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (Ga 6:7) So then, what's the answer? The key is in how we confess our sins. At the very moment we are confessing them to him, what we are truly requesting of God is mercy. And this is a most fantastic reality! We desire for him to pardon our sin - instead of allowing us to receive consequences for our wrongful behavior. And he will indeed extend that kindness to us each and every time - just as long as our intentions are honest! But there's a "catch" to this, so that God is not mocked. (For how can he continue wiping the slate clean when one keeps filling it up with insincere apologies? He cannot - for God is JUST.) Please be patient with me - in order to realize God's wonderful way of extending forgiveness to us when we fall short, we must simply understand what's involved concerning mercy. Then everything else will fall into perfect alignment and harmony. Believe it or not - according to the truth - mercy is conditional! One verse alone (below) is all you need to see to understand this. (But I will go into more detail later on to make it perfectly clear how this is actually accomplished.) Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. This is simple: If someone has done something he knows to be wrong and doesn't approach God on the matter, it remains unforgiven because (according to 1Jn 1:9) he needs to confess it in order to be forgiven. And if he tries to hide (cover) it, the above verse indicates he shall not prosper. That method will just not work! So he must either approach God on the matter or continue on, being convicted by his own conscience all the while knowing he is neglecting his responsibility to take care of it. And as he continues to procrastinate, his own self-condemnation becomes ever stronger against him until he finally acts by admitting it to God as he should have in the first place. Okay now we're getting somewhere! So, what should one's attitude be when he does approach God about a problem area in his life? According to Pr 8:23b, it's not enough just to confess the sin, but he must be also be willing to forsake it as well! Then he shall have mercy. (And "shall" means absolutely.) If one approaches God in this manner, he will receive mercy every single time!) At the very moment someone tells God he's sorry, he must also be intending in his heart not to repeat the matter. (And God knows whether or not he is truly sincere.) And if he is - then no problem! He then receives mercy - and the slate is wiped clean again, just as if it never happened at all. So what remains? Will the man commit that same error again? Probably. But to be honest, the only way to continue receiving mercy for it is to have been tricked into doing it some other way than before, because he already knows what caused it the last time, and falling for the same old tricks over and over again doesn't fool God. We are expected to learn from our mistakes and do better each time! Now - for the "extra" I promised concerning mercy: Pr 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. This verse explains the rest of the process. While we are yet learning more and more about a particular sin of ours, we will continue to receive mercy for our ignorance in that matter - for as long as it takes - while we become more and more adept in dealing with it. Going to God continually with the honest intention not to repeat a matter is what buys us time and delays any consequences for the wrong action while we are continuing to learn more about that problem area. Did you notice in the above verse that while we are receiving mercy we are also receiving more of the truth as well? (by mercy and truth iniquity is purged) What truth, you ask? - it's the finer details, which will reveal even more to us about other things which are causing that very same problem! The rest of the verse indicates that eventually (when even a problem's most subtle causes are understood) a particular iniquity of ours will finally be purged! As we remain honest and faithful with God, there will come a time when that problem will be completely gone from our lives! After we have finally seen our adversary's entire bag of tricks in a certain area of our life, it becomes likened to one of my favorite songs - by The Who: "We don't get fooled again!" Good! Now our enemy must find some other problem area to entice us with, because even the devil knows that tempting us where we are no longer ignorant is just plain stupid! Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth [resists] temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. As we resist the temptation to sin, we will receive a reward! Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. No wonder the devil has to try something else! If he dares to trick us with that which we have already become proficient in, he is found to be helping us earn rewards for resisting him in that category! And he surely won't be doing that, now will he? Let's be thankful to God for always extending his mercy to us as we persist in coming to him with a sincere heart concerning a problem area in our lives which we truly desire to be rid of! Thank God for his unending patience as he continues to gently instruct us about that problem in even finer detail, gradually allowing it to fade away into oblivion - from where it can no longer bother us! And then we can just look back on it and laugh at how stupid we were while we kept on doing it - because now we're fully aware of how to avoid it! That sounds like it should be the end. (But wait! There's more!) On the other hand, what if we didn't intend to commit that sin in the first place? We only did it because we didn't know any better. Is God going to make sure we "reap what we sow" and allow us to be punished for it anyway? Would you test first graders on calculus when all they understand about math so far is how to add and subtract - and then flunk them all? Well - neither would God punish you for something you were doing wrong, knowing that you haven't even learned about it yet! Remember 1Jn 1:9 - If we confess our sins - (???) Just how can we tell God we're sorry for doing something when we don't even know it's wrong in the first place? Well, what happens to us in that case? Nothing! He simply overlooks it. You are not responsible to God for what you aren't aware of yet! We are only responsible to approach God for forgiveness when we know we have a problem. This is a very important lesson which needs to be understood! Carefully consider - as never before - the following verses concerning our fellowship with God: 1Jn 1: 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. As I said before, God is the only one who is perfect - and he knows that (in the flesh) we cannot be! 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: Yes! As I said before, we know that we can't go to God and fool him with insincere confessions - nor can we just ignore our problems and expect them to just go away on their own! We know when we're lying, and we know when we're trying to hide our sins from God. (And so does he!) 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. We are only expected to conduct ourselves as we know best, walking in the light that we understand thus far. And what results? We have fellowship with God, his son Jesus Christ, and (hopefully) with our spiritual brothers and sisters as well - just as long as they aren't judging us according to what they know is right! Furthermore, it says here that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin !!! That's all the stuff we still don't know about yet. As far as God is concerned, it's as though you are walking in absolute perfection - even though (being perfect himself) he knows better. And so should we! Reading on... 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. So - while we're enjoying this wonderful fellowship with God and everyone else, are we committing sins? Heck yeah! All the damn time! Why? Because we aren't perfect. But is that our sin? Is there something we should confess to God about? Not at all! As far as we know, all is well - and there's nothing we need to be ashamed about because we're doing all we know concerning what is right. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. And when we do "blow it" we go to God and simply tell him we're sorry, with the intention not to do it again. And what results? It's just as before - as far as God is concerned, we have done nothing unrighteous whatsoever! Well, what about that? Have we really been doing anything which is considered unrighteous in God's understanding? Heck yeah! That's what we do all the time - because we humans aren't perfect - and we can't be perfect, despite how hard we try. (Do we remember verse 8?) But - are we responsible to do anything about that imperfection of ours at the moment? No! We've just been forgiven, and (as far as God is concerned) it's just as if we hadn't even sinned at all! Accepting what God says is true concerning us, our conscience should now be clear. And we just move on with our lives, and enjoy his fellowship. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. The above verse is yet one more reminder that we truly are making mistakes all of the time, even though we aren't aware of just what they are. Being human, that's our very nature. We aren't perfect, nor even at our best are we even close! The truth be told, even that which we think we are doing right is so damn far from perfection that it's truly laughable! 1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. Whatever man does that he thinks is smart, or right, or true, or just, or righteous, or wise, etc, is sheer folly in God's eyes! It seems marvelous to me that God has yet chosen to reward us for anything we have done whatsoever! So, we should be ever thankful for (and appreciative of) his mercy and grace, and for his patience and longsuffering on our behalf, understanding we are still considered privileged enough to be rewarded, despite the meager appearance of our best efforts - which, in reality, are next to nothing when compared to what is perfectly righteous. What a loving God we have, who will not judge us according to our true ignorance, for in that case we would never deserve any rewards whatsoever! So, the key in life is merely to continue doing what you have learned is right, and enjoy God's willingness to treat you as though you were just as perfect as he is, even though you know better. And what about others who know more of the truth than you? Should you allow them to continually come at you, offering "reproof and correction" for the many things they seem to understand that you aren't doing correctly? Be very careful of this trap! After you allow them to show your mistakes, many of these sort will not only expect you to admit to them just how sorry you are for having done such things, but will also suggest you go to God and ask his forgiveness as well for having done that which offended them - when you didn't even know you had those problems until they first brought them up! Those are not teachers, but judges! It's usually best to avoid such situations. Should you still attend classes on Biblical truth? Yes. Should you ask questions of others to learn more about truth and error? Yes. Should you study and learn for yourself what God likes and what he doesn't so you can walk more precisely for him? Definitely! Just be careful not to ingest more at one time than you can be faithful to - and you'll be just fine. Pr 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Therefore, it's wise to take in only a little at a time and then put that into practice as best you can - until you understand it. Then eat a little more. That way, there's no limit as to how much you may eventually be handling properly. But if you allow others to just feed you everything at once, you might just become responsible for more than you are willing to handle all of a sudden. Then, (being knowledgeable of all the new mistakes you are making) your conscience will take advantage of you for not being faithful to all of that, and it may be quite some time before you can truly get a proper handle on all you have recently become aware of. To me, this is likened to Adam and Eve, who dared to eat something which they heard would make them instantly knowledgeable about everything good and evil - without having any time in between to learn how to put any of it into practice. Didn't the devil suggest that (by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) they "would be as gods, knowing all about good and evil" ? God would rather we didn't attempt such shortcuts in life! Instead, we should simply walk along his path of righteousness one small step at a time and allow him to show us the truth according to what he knows we can handle - and then we try our best to remain upright as we move forward, and go to him when we fall short. And when you approach others, ask them questions to learn what they are hungry for - and feed them THAT. Anything else is just being a poor host. If someone comes along and tries to feed you something "new" without asking you about it first, kindly change the subject and inform them of something you ARE interested in consuming. And if they persist on trying to shove something else down your throat - kindly excuse yourself by telling them you just aren't hungry for that at the moment. And then leave in peace. Spec

Well, then --- you may want to check out my book entitled: Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible. Perhaps you won't be truly interested in everything in the book, but within it is a very new approach to understanding some of the "hidden" meanings within the book of Revelation. I bet you would find that part very interesting. Sorry I cannot just give you a book, as I desire to recoup what my publisher charged to produce it. (And BTW, my intention for posting on this Topic was not just to "peddle a few more books"...LOL) But since you are interested, the best price I know of is on Amazon. Here is a link to it: My link I think there is only one left right now, so if you don't get it --- i think more are on the way soon. Spec

Infoabsorption: You sound like a very deep thinker, so I ask you a question: Do you suppose it's possible that Revelation could somehow simultaneously be referring not only to prophetic statements concerning past events, but also to similar (but not exactly identical) things which will happen in the future? (Not only in "our immediate future", but also that which is to result in the devastation of the Earth as we know it?) Spec