spectrum49

Sorry to hear you're feeling a bit "whimpy". Perhaps it would be better to fondly remember the time when you were a red giant? (Just trying to help!)

Mike: I'm beginning to know just a bit about you by now. Perhaps the following may not be true concerning your entire life, but to me (concerning this topic of plagiarism by VP) you seem to fit the bill here: Prov 26:16 --- "The sluggard is wiser in his own conceit than seven men that can render a reason." Obviously (and as you've said many times before) your mind is already made up on this matter. So to justify it in your mind, you've woven a rather intricate web of deceit which (perhaps unwittingly, to be kind) you've tangled yourself in. And within that sphere is where you've developed an uncanny ability to come up with an answer (logical or not) for everything concerning this matter --- that you may maintain your present position. Perhaps it might be a good idea for you to read the comparison between Wierwille's and Stiles' work on holy spirit. And (if you would be so kind) tell the forum whether or not it's plain to you that VP did copy Stiles' work. Here's the link again: Read it! http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_stiles.htm

Wow T-Bone --- what a post --- that sure got my neurons flowing! About the supermassive black hole: I GET IT! To me, it's a perfect analogy of a narcissist, just as you described. (VP sure "sucked a lot of people" into his realm, huh?) Now, just a little more about black holes in general: (And please don't tell my wife!) I consider a black hole to be my favorite thing in the universe --- and for good reason: My wife is black!

What do you call it when when a country runs out of prophylactics? A "no-condom" nation! (See Ro 8:1)

Fresh off the press! (from the sick brain of Mel) What do you call it when a lawyer defends you for free --- and then screws up the case? A "pro-boner". (Yuck!)

(Another - SICK JOKE - original by Mel) Don't ever let the police catch you with Morton's and an EverReady in your pocket. Because if ya do, you'll be arrested for SALT & BATTERY!

(Original by Mel, aka: Spec) A young man was arrested, and refused to give up his phone. When the officer asked him why, he replied: "But officer --- that's my CELL PHONE!"

OK --- I confess! I stole someone's work once. (You might find this humorous.) I was in first grade and hadn't been paying attention in class. When it came time to write something at our desks, I leaned over and copied a girl's paper who was sitting front of me. And I copied it ALL — even her name! Now...how STUPID was that? And (of course!) the teacher caught me. How embarrassing!

ROCKY: Know what I SAY? Just this: If Wierwille wanted (and apparently he did want) to look like he had figured it out all on his own, wouldn't that actually BE plagiarism, if he actually didn't figure it out all on his own (from God, without any human help)? And wouldn't that make it evident that he did intend to plagiarize rather than credit his human sources? Now, don't get in a tizzy over this, pal! I liked what you said so much that I TOOK IT FOR MY OWN. And if you think that's stealing, let me inform you that God told me (by revelation, of course) that I was to do that. So from now on, if YOU DARE use those same words again, I'm gonna hit YOU with plagiarism! Seriously though: Although VP was intent on stealing others' works without giving due credit, I'm near positive he justified it all by rationalization, simply because of the sheer numbers of people who "flocked to God" through his ministry. (And to his liking, I bet it didn't do his EGO any harm, either!) I'll bet he considered "the end was justified by the means" --- despite that it was truly a matter of lies and deception to have many people suppose the work was his own. Some were never fooled; however, the ignorant and gullible among the masses (who either weren't very "well-read" or who were just too lazy to do their own "fact-checking") were among those taken in by his ploy.

Bolshevik: As a matter of fact, I really DO have something which relates with your "image". God forbid that I should flap my gums forever here about all of that. Let it suffice that I've found reasonable evidence for what appears as God displaying the scientific principle of the refraction of light into it's 7 (basic) colors, precisely as we observe from the bottom to the top of a rainbow in nature! I've written a book Genesis One: God's Table of Contents to the Bible, which is available for download here at GS. Basically, what I mentioned above is what I discovered once (while "just playing around") trying to assign the most logical color for each of the 7 days in Genesis 1. (I sort of got lucky to discover this, if ya know what I mean.) Be that as it may; read it if you like. Whether it's actual truth or not, I promise it's very interesting! But I will say this, which is more on topic: I'll bet VP wanted us to take his PFAL much further than he did while here. I'll also bet he died with many things hidden in his heart which were either just "too far ahead of time" or he just didn't see them clearly enough to explain about while he was still alive. And that's EXACTLY what I did with "my little study". Perhaps this sounds a bit weird: But sometimes I fondly imagine seeing VP at the bema and imparting what I found to him about "color" --- to his sheer delight! Be that as it may. But to revere PFAL to be "perfect, just as it is" is just plain WRONG. (That's what TWI still supposes, even today --- which lauds VP's work far too highly!) And Mike: Please don't be offended at my saying this: Even though you no longer attend Way fellowships, in your mindset you're still a part of the present day TWI's camp, even as I described it in the previous paragraph. You need to recognize parts of PFAL which are worth keeping and (with meekness) recognize that which isn't --- which is basically what GS is truly all about: to help others to "go beyond the old wine skin", even as I'm assuming VP desired of us after his departure. NOW: I feel the need to (at least) express one example of error in PFAL --- not to pick, but which makes far more sense then what was taught. Basically, VP divided the administrations incorrectly. He sided with Bullinger that the last administration (the 7th one) is "future paradise", aka: New Jerusalem. But I can logically show how the 7th time fits much better at the throne --- which settles everything since the time of Adam in Eden. And then (numerically speaking) the spiritual perfection (7) with which God handles things at his great white throne (reconciling everything to his own satisfaction!) is a much better fit than supposing the 7th time is "the eternal state" (as Bullinger put it) or "final paradise" (as VP put it). Following that, one has two choices: [1] He can either keep counting upwards (which makes New Jerusalem the 8th time, in keeping with the brand new beginning of a brand new earth) OR one can just start over, just as though nothing matters about the second earth --- from Adam's time to God's throne. And in that case, New Jerusalem would be viewed as the commencement of the 3rd earth (ie: a simple beginning, even as "1" would properly indicate). Note: Even calling Eden first is the same as assuming there was no earth before that. However: If one prefers to consider the 1st earth (prior to Adam), then Eden itself would be the 8th time --- which would also (as did New Jerusalem) represent the brand new beginning of a brand new earth. Not to belabor this: But if you keep counting from there, then the judgment at God's throne would be 14th (7 x 2) --- rendering it as a time of "spiritual perfection (7) being established (2)", which includes two sets of seven: [1] from the very beginning of earth until it became without form and void, and [2] from Adam until something similar happens to the earth we presently live in, which we read about in the book of Revelation. (And then comes the judgment I spoke of earlier.) As far as "poking fun here" at times: God does have a sense of humor. For instance, consider Job's remark to his miserable comforters: "No doubt YOU ARE THE ONES --- and wisdom shall die with you!" (ie: "I suppose when you all die, there just won't be any more wisdom, huh?") Surely, I enjoy sarcasm at times. And I don't do that just to be mean --- but (usually) to prove a point, by either exaggerating or using hyperbole. And I see a lot of that here at GS! When such things are leveled at people here, it should be taken as advice to learn something from --- and not to get in a tizzy about. So lighten up, and try to see things more clearly --- BEYOND where PFAL left off! To me, much of what's in that class is truly like spoiled leftovers, rotting in the fridge. Spec

Excellent post Twinky! Authoritative, to the point --- and most fair indeed! (the one for Mike, two posts above this one)

OKAY! Against my better judgment, I'm going to put something here which I have been keeping a secret for a long, long time. (And I hope the ladies here will not be offended, as though sex is merely some "mechanical thing"!) It has to to with what I deem as "proper lovemaking". I'm also posting it for "poor, poor Mike", who was so horribly abused by those nuns so long ago...never teaching him much about the subject --- AND also because he said "it is a troubling issue to me", and I would like to help him if that's at all possible. I'm putting it here (as an attachment in .doc format) so as not to "take over the topic", and because it's rather lengthy. Read it if ya like, and comment if you want to. All in all, it's just something that Spec noticed. Maybe there's truth to it, and maybe not; each can decide for himself. But if you're actually in a position to "try it out with your spouse", I think you both might be pleasantly surprised --- because it hasn't failed for my wife & I in 30 years now. ENJOY! Proper Lovemaking.doc

DWBH: My God! I never realized that even the concept of The Way Tree wasn't original --- I think I've heard it all now! By the way: "My name is Mel...and I'm a Wayaholic. Although I haven't been to a Way fellowship in over 10 years, I know in my heart that just one sip of their Kool Aide again --- and my life would certainly be over!"

Sky and T-Bone: See? It's easy to have fun here (and maybe get a "few jabs" in at times...LOL). Nevertheless, there's great learning behind all the rhetoric and jokes at GS, huh? I also (as you're both aware) am intrigued by the intertwining of things among the natural and supernatural realms. T-Bone: As you know, even light itself cannot escape a black hole. But we're far more than just "any old light", as that which exists in the natural realm. We're a bit more special (and powerful!) than all that. (Consider Jesus' remark, that "he considers it not robbery to be equal with God"...think of that for a bit!) So (of course) there really was a way out of The Way for us after all --- Ha! Ha! Because the "super massive black hole" surrounding HQ (to try holding us in) was not gonna hold in some TRUE LIGHT like us! (And God as light is certainly more than a mere collection of wonderfully arranged photons!) But now --- to be more on topic: Some time ago, I was thinking of some principles from botany and how they relate to The Way Tree. Interestingly enough, consider about how the leaves nourish the tree using photosynthesis to turn energy gathered directly from the sun into a special kind of sugar called glucose. These nutrients are then transmitted to the root via the other parts of the tree, which (in turn) redistributes this "new light" (in glucose form) throughout the tree, so it may flourish properly. And we simple rank and file members of The Way Tree tried to emulate this at times, attempting to introduce some "new light" (we had gathered from the light source via the spirit, as it were) to try nourishing the Root --- aka: HQ. But alas, the following was how it really worked within TWI: You might remember how The Way Tree evolved so as to eventually not include the leaves: simply because those weren't considered that important compared to THE (almighty) ROOT, Trunks, Limbs and Branches! Now there's something to consider from science! SO: No wonder that tree is dead! But it seems to live on somehow, despite everything. Perhaps (in keeping with current pop-culture) it's a zombie tree! And do keep in mind something Jesus prayed once: "thy will be done upon earth, as it is in heaven". Do ya think God endorses the idea that the physical laws governing the universe (which he himself designed) should flow in harmony with that in the spiritual realm? All for now: Spec

Thanks for the compliments, So_crates (and Mike, too!). The truth is: You don't always NEED what I call "extra revelation" (via the spirit) when the Word itself is revelation already (yet, in written form). While it's true that revelation (from above) will "never flow at cross-purposes" to Scripture, it still carries the same "flavor of truth" --- even at times when it seems to contradict the written Word itself. Nevertheless, we should trust in what the Scripture says as written, for God (who authored it) will never contradict that! And this is especially true concerning the "heart" behind his exact wording, which is why I said it's important to use "written revelation" when it's available, rather than trying to go to "an empty cookie jar" --- if ya know what I mean! And YES, So_crates! VP (according to my "expert calculation", if I may so boldly assert) was not (in God's eyes) the leader he claimed himself to be. Although he had "many things right", he must have realized there was much more to learn! But the problem is, that he never seemed to trust anyone else to correct his thinking (as merely appeared was his MO in PFAL). He was not as humble as he pretended to be! Although he did allude that he wanted us all to build on the Word he proclaimed after his departure, I doubt very much that would have included dismantling many things which were off the mark in PFAL itself! Even today, TWI is STAUNCH on maintaining VP'S ORIGINAL PFAL! They will not budge an inch...even if one were to "prove it to them" via simple scripture, also using the same "research principles" --- which (by the way) are commonly known worldwide. To them, none of VP's writings may be tampered with, for they are absolute truth! As for you, Mike: I still have a bit of patience left concerning you. We just don't know each other that well yet. (And if it's any consolation to you, please accept my apology for "poking fun at you", which I'm sure you noticed in other posts.) Spec

ROCKY: Excellent video. Enjoyed it very much. And OH --- how it relates with "our past"! As with others, I wouldn't have minded one bit if she had continued longer. Thanks for posting.

Yes...and if you hadn't noticed what George said 2 paragraphs later in that same post: "Although I doubt you'll pay any attention to this advice whatsoever (you know the TRUTH after all)." And it's been 16 years since he said that. SO --- Is George a prophet? (LMAO)

ROCKY: Actually (in the previous post, from the 2002 link) George Aar had said to Mike, "Basically aren't you simply saying "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"?" And isn't it strange how Mike replied in the very next post: "NO GEORGE...Don't waste my time and yours with the facts. I've already seen them all, long before you did, and I've FINALLY made up my mind." Isn't it utterly ironic how Mike contradicted himself --- first disagreeing with George, but (in his very next breath) agreeing with exactly what George had said to him! Rather confusing, huh?

Grace: That reminds me EXACTLY of something Mike said long ago to someone named George, right around the time he first began to post in GS: Posted December 27, 2002 No, George. If you read my posts more carefully you'll see I'm saying: "Don't waste my time and yours with the facts. I've already seen them all, long before you did, and I've FINALLY made up my mind."

A "snip" from the article: "Tesla died in 1943 and six months after his death the US Supreme Court ruled that all of Marconi’s radio patents were invalid and awarded the patents for radio to Tesla."

WRONG! Tesla actually invented the idea of radio in 1892. See the following: https://teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla/articles/tesla-invented-radio-not-marconi (Just trying to help!)

The fog, according to my understanding: Beginning about the mid-to-late 80's, The Way was beginning to split apart. Much of this was due to Reverend Martindale's (LCM) having been made President by VP before he died. (And many who thought they were "more qualified" for the position were very jealous of him because of it. I just call it sibling rivalry.) It seems that "many new and different doctrines" were forming by those others. (And much of the "hidden stuff" was being exposed and confronted --- like all of the adultery among those at HQ, etc.) Although at first, this increasing rift among the members wasn't divulged to the mainstream believers, certainly the Corps and other "inner-circle people" at HQ were all aware of it.) I finally became aware of this shortly after returning home from the Advanced Class at Emporia Kansas in '89. (And I still wasn't aware that the ministry had already begun to split.) Anyway, some of the "bigwigs" (John Lynn, John Shoenheit, Vince Finnegan, Chris Geer and others) had left the ministry --- taking many believers with them. Things were in great disarray among those remaining with TWI, who were referred to as the faithful remnant. And there was much confusion as to why all this decline had happened within The Way. LCM deemed this time as the fog, alluding to the fact that it was "hard to see" just why the ministry was about cut in half in so short a time. From then on, The Way was hard-pressed on many fronts to conduct the ministry as before. Financially, they were becoming most desperate; and sold many of the Wierwille properties for ready cash, just to keep things going. And today, they're only a smattering of what they once were. Less than: I hope this clarifies "the fog" a bit for you. Don't worry...you're just fine! If this is of any help, remember Ro 14:22b ...happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. SO: Don't worry about what The Way taught you --- which made you afraid when you didn't conform to their demented reasoning of what constitutes "a faithful relationship" with your heavenly Father. Allow yourself to be comfortable in your shortcomings! Face it: You can't be perfect no matter what you do --- so why try? Because if you do, you'll never be good enough by your own works anyway. God accepts you just as you are. As the verse said, STOP putting yourself down; and quit measuring yourself according to the (false) standard of living which TWI shoved down your throat. Bless you, and have a cup of coffee on me. Welcome to GS! (Spec)

Interesting slant from science, T-Bone! As for me, I eventually wised up and left TWI. I can say in all truth that I was in their "inescapable" gravitational pull for quite some time. I remember LCM remarking: "If you ever forsake this ministry, God won't even spit in your direction." (The way I see it, I never really liked the idea of God spitting on me anyway.) And another of his quotes: "If you leave The Way, you'll be a grease spot by midnight!" Well, guess what? I did leave them --- and HERE I AM...a Greasespot! And the coffee here is delicious!

Maybe a bit off topic, but I have something to say: There's been talk here about how to define just who "your spiritual leaders" are. I have a story which might shed some light on this: First, let us keep in mind Heb 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and IS a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." From the above, we understand it's entirely possible to actually perceive what's going on in people's hearts and minds by understanding appropriate related scriptures. And that's still true --- even when they themselves may not be fully aware of it! This is a very important part of discerning spiritual situations. I once had a Twig Coordinator (name withheld) who wasn't very nice to me personally. It seems he never had much good to say of me --- if anything at all! But still, I put up with his often rudeness the best I could. While it's true I did much to help in the fellowship and conducted myself well, I never heard even one word of thanks, or "good job" from him. However, he was very quick to point out each and every fault he could find on me (like a fly on .... ). And many times it wasn't even justified, meaning that he was accusing me falsely! [This is one of the so-called 7 deadly sins from Prov 6:19 (#7) "and he that soweth discord among brethren.". It also relates with the 8th commandment --- from Ex 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour."] Anyway, one time I was reading in Galatians and something stuck out to me. I've bolded the part which struck a chord in my heart: Rom 13:1-3 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and THOU SHALT HAVE praise of the same:" According to this, true spiritual leaders are defined by God himself --- and NOT because someone has a corpse ring on his finger and sanction by some earthly ministry to be my leader! This is done in heaven --- and is in accordance with what the Word declares. (Remember Heb 4:12?) Simply because this guy didn't give me praise when it was warranted, it was revealed to my heart that he was NOT REALLY MY LEADER at all; for if he truly was, he would have conducted himself accordingly. So one day (when I had enough of his BS) I confronted him about denying me those "words of praise" when they were due. And he laughed at me. So I took him to the section in Romans 13 and showed it to him. And I told him that I no longer considered him my spiritual leader because of it. And he laughed me to scorn! And from then on, I made it a point "not to obey him in all things". Instead of putting up with his nonsense during fellowship, I constantly confronted him (in front of everyone) when he would accuse me falsely. In a short time, he became very frustrated! In fact, he got so upset that he actually left the area. (He even divorced his wife, quit the ministry all together --- and moved back to Louisiana where he was brought up!) And thus: The truth I had boldly declared became true upon earth, even as in heaven --- that he was no longer my leader, or for that matter, anyone's leader! (Actually, he never was anyway --- get it?) There are many similar parameters like this within the Word --- which truly define life's situations. And the more of them we notice, the wiser we shall be in evaluating the proper associations we should make among people --- and choices which will enhance our lives for the better.

Not exactly on topic, but it relates: While reading the posts here, I couldn't help thinking of an old friend named Molly Petch. (It was about '75 or so, when some of the believers were still "getting high".) She got lots of people to come to twig merely by asking them: "Hey --- wanna get high?" And even the twig leader didn't seem to mind that, supposing "the ends might justify the means": For who knows? --- Maybe they'll take THE CLASS! (LOL) I do remember a particular incident though: She came with a couple of "hippies". When we were all seated (and ready to begin the fellowship) one of them pulled out a bag of pot and a pipe, etc. TOO FUNNY! (They left pretty quick when they found out Molly was only alluding to "getting high on the Word".)