cattcar9

I hear ya clay, These days I can really appreciate and understand more fully this saying....What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Clay, That's just what I'm saying. What I write is for consideration. What is being considered is what we believe. It's not whether what you believe is right or whether what I believe is right but simply WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? And I point out that hardships cause us to look at that. To look at what we believe honesty, to take stock of ourselves in truth. And also if you have questions about it through hardships God has answers some of which we believe and some we don't. I started with asking some to consider they were placed in bondage and delivered from bondage. Some disagreed (don't believe that) some do who knows. After that I was asked if I believe it, my answer is YES I do. After that it was demanded of me why or how I could believe that by those who don't beleive it. Some wanted me to clarify evil, some satan, some asked for doctrine. It got side tracked into other areas which happens often. Some have expressed what they learned about other men...ie liars, decievers, dishonest. I just shifted that a moment and ask what did you learn about yourselves and or about God in all of this? The answers are as various as there are people. What we learn is what we learn. I ascribe it to the glory of God others don't. One thing is for sure we all ascribe it to the things we believe. If you say you don't believe that I say, OK! It's said for consideration.

Bill, When someone tells me that my communications to them are long and tortuous and in that I still didn't answer them it's tells me it's time to take a break. You can take that any way you want, it doesn't mean the way you take it is truth. I already said in other posts it's not about whether people believe me or not, maybe it is for you but I'm not you. I just say what I know and you decide, you can take it or leave it since it's not important that you or anyone else agree with me. You said..."so God caused the "nautally occuring event". You don't need me to answer that for you in your mind when you can clearly read it for yourself and I'll pose it to you in a question ...Did God CAUSE the event that led to boils all over Job's body? Did God cause the blind mand to be blind from birth? And was that because he or his parents sinned like the disciples asked and many are asking here? What was the purpose of the boils all over Job and what was the purose of the blind man being born blind? I believe God who says "I the lord do ALL THINGS" if you or others don't believe him just say it. You don't need to take me to task on that, take God to task on it. I don't believe it just because it's written I believe it because I know it in my own experience with God. I can accept you don't believe or others don't believe God how is it you cannot accept that I do believe it, but instead ask me to prove it to you somehow as if I could?! Could the blind man cause them who demanded of him an answer to how he came to see make them see the answer? Though the blind man answered them it sure didn't stop them from demanding an answer though did it? And when they were suffenciently frustrated with him they threw him out. Why? You answer that for yourself but as for me it's because they could not hear or see except God cause them to. If you don't "agree" with what I beleive just say so. I believe God who says I open eyes and close them. If you don't beleive him take him to task on it, he's the only one who can cause us to hear or see or believe truth or beleive lies. If you believed God as you say you do you would know him and you would beleive those who believe him and know him. If you don't beleive God you won't beleive me either because what I say I know and that not of myself but of Him by his Spirit. I don't know what kind of progress you're trying to make here. You say there's not much progress because you still don't know why God allows evil to exist. I say I BELIEVE HIM who says....I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. If you don't believe HIM or me who does beleive him then just say it! If you must take someone to task for it take God to task for it because only HE can cause you to see what he says! Only God can open eyes and release us from bondage it's what the Christ does...I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I have visited here because I rejoice in the works of God as you all testify how your eyes have been opened and you have been released from the bondage of your former prision. If you don't ascrible the glory of that to God just say it...and some have. But I DO. If you want to blame others for being suckered in to that organization and then take the glory by your own reasonings and wisdom for leaving thereby elevating yourself from your brothers and sisters who are too stupid to leave who aren't able like yourselves to figure out "this ISN'T the way" go for it, I could care less. But as for me I believe God opens eyes and ears and understanding and that God places us in bondage and that God releases us. I believe it's for his own glory and honor and because of his love that he does all things. If you don't believe it just say it, but don't expect me to prove these things to you, beause my only proof is my belief in God and my own witness of the Spirit in my life and some have stated they don't believe he does these things. And I don't take them to task on their beleifs I just ask if they have considered these things. That's for them to answer for themselves and it's the sole purpose of me asking. As to your last question..."Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?" So why are there trials and tribulations and parched and dry gound where people thirst and suffer and cry for releif and help instead of happy all the time? When Jeshurun waxes fat he kicks because he is waxed fat and he forsakes the God who made him and he lightly esteems the Rock of his salvation provoking God to jeaslousy while he sacrafices to devils and not to God. Of the Rock that begot Jeshurun he is unmindful and forgets the God who formed him. You don't have to believe God here and if you don't just say so. But if not you will continue to be placed in this situation over and over again until you can see (and that by the hand of God) God and the truth in all he says and all he does. And what situation is that? The one where you sacrifice to things OTHER than God. The sacrifics you made were to the way international and not to God. Even the people here have said it, they don't have a problem with God just the Way international and since they've left they feel freer to seek God or know God because they beleived what men told them to do as a way of pleasing God. Well it was to the way international that all their sacrifices were made in the name of God before they left. But don't let this fall on relgions, some people make all their sacrfices to jobs, or spouses, or material things, or drugs, or physical appearance, or health, or even family,or attaing great wisdom. These are the things they beleive they will find peace and happiness in and people will make sacrifices time and time again to attain happiness in these things. But who will sacrifice a thing like just believing God? If men ask for belief, men will grant it to men, but if God asks for belief will men believe him? Will men believe all the things God says about his own self? Though men want to believe and even believe they believe they CANNOT believe unless God cause them to believe, what don't you know that even your faith is a gift from God and not of yourselves? The man who spoke to Christ knew it when he said Lord I believe HELP my UNBELIEF. That man CONSIDERED that his belief NEEDED to come from God! First be comforted in... Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Then understand who does these things...Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel. Then is the result of the process...When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the dangtah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: Why? This is the purpose....That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it. Though I tell you this until the day you experience it and that by the Spirit of God who causes you to see it and hear it and undertand it...you will not beleive it or know it to be true. If simply reading the bible and believing what you read and understanding english is all that was necessary to find truth...ALL MEN who read and understand english would already have come to the truth and there wouldn't be 5000 denonimations and religions who all claim their foundation is the bible even though they are at odds with each other and what God says. It's not that the bible is god, I believe and know the GOD of the bible. Have you considered there is a difference? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul ect...these are men who you call "the bible" and rightly so for they are and were the epistles of God written in the flesh who's words you now read. They are the living word in the flesh, and theres' no mystery to that for God said that was the new covenant, he would take his laws and write them IN YOUR HEART. Do you supposes these men knew at the time they would forever be known as the "bible"? Did they have a road map doctrine to read as they lived with Christ? Men READ them! Their lives and their account of their lives as to what they witnessed and did IS what you call the new testiment of the bible. Clay touched on this himself in some of his more recent posts in this thread.

I'm not telling you anything of the kind. I'm not sure who my comments were tortuose to, you possibly? In any event just because you want me to answer you in a way you have dertermined doesn't mean that I will, I don' t do here's the question and here's the options now pick which answer I have given you from the three that I will accept, sorry that's not my style. Thats not even a two way communication, it's one man deciding the question and the outcome, the only variable left to the person who he want's the conversation with is to pick which of three A,B,orC you have supplied them with. Either you are interested in this conversation because I am my own person or you're not. Seems to me your not. That's ok with me. As far as the rest of the questions that are not mutiple choice, wow is all I can say. Well since you never considered that God might use a natural occuring event that is usually a hardship in peoples lives in a way that that person might take a good hard look at themselves and God, and others watching that might see things as well, I'm glad I brought it up because now you have considered it (Job, Paul and the man born blind from birth certainly did). Although I don't think yet you have considered what I am saying fully because your understanding of what I said and mine don't match up. Maybe you should consider re reading this paragraph or what I wrote to you again and see if you can see that how your hearing it is not how I am saying it. But in any event, there is a breakdown in communication here so I will be leaving off this subject with you for a while.

Hi Bramble, I enjoyed reading your reply. If you read some of the other replys I have written you will see I am well aquainted with the style of leadership you were under. No matter what or how it happened or how you see leaving happened I am very glad to see you out from under the thing that grieved you! Also if you read other replys I have wriiten you will see that this is not about doctrine to me. I'm not trying to teach doctrine or persuade anyone of any kind of doctrine. I'm just recounting my life expereinced as they relate to myself and God. Thank you for responding...till next time...have a wonderful day!!!

Hi T-bone, Thank you so much for that reception, it is very nice to meet you! I know that you are not in any way trying to sound critical, but even if you were, that's ok. The way I see it T-bone, is I haven't failed in that thing you say I failed at because my goal was never to try and convince you of anything. It's just a witness of the things done in my life of God. I know it sounds absurd, but believing me isn't really what this is about to me. Speaking with and conversing with people is very enjoyable to me, and the ability to give witness of God concerning the things I speak about is AWESOME to me! As far as doctines go, I'm more speak of the things I've expereinced. Doctrine is something one follows or aheres to or practices, once that thing has been written in you and you experience it it no longer is doctrine but life!

Hello Watered Garden, I do not know the individual you are talking about nor ever even heard of him. Unfortunately Watered you have made quite a few assumptions about what I believe and then commented on them and then you have given me senerios to ponder in light of those assumption. The first thing I'd like to clear up is... I don't believe diabetes, cancer, hepatitis,heart disease, suffering and death are EVIL things. They are illnesses and common neither good or evil. Unfortuantely, many people believe that if illness befalls them it is EVIL, I don't believe that. But what I do know is that when illnesses befall men (and it befalls all mankind) they certainly turn their thoughts towards God whether in anger or for comfort. Either way they turn. I really am not going to get into a debate as to why these things happen and to whom they happen to and whether that in itself is also evil. If everything in this world is either good or evil we will without a doubt spend our lives in anger or happy depending whether or not we percieve we are being given good or evil. I'm going to give you an example of what I'm saying. In hurricane Katrina many people lost their homes and all their belongs ect. It was a devastating event to say the least. In the days that followed there were interviews on the TV with the people affected by Katrina. Two type of people emerged. Thoses who were crushed in soul and spirit and those who were not. Those who were crushed by it were also angry and accusitory. Those who were not were peaceful and accepting. The event itself did not cause that reaction is either of those two type of people. Those that were already of a crushed heart and mind continued in that and those who were already of a peaceful accepting mind continued in that. Now I know one might argue with me to the enth dregree that the event itself is what caused a normally peaceful mind to go into hopelessness and a normally crushed heart to "see the light" and peace set in. But I would like you to consider that the event caused the people to see themselves in truth and not what they want others to see them as or want they want to beleive about themselves. Hardships of anykind WILL REVEAL to the world and ESPECIALLY to ourselves our true hearts and where they lie. Another example is... I was always a person who just could never understand how an abused wife would stay in that relationship. Even to the point that I would recount to my friends and family and especially myself how I would have handled that. Of course I would not take that and I would leave and I was just shocked that these women didn't. I was SOLID in my "philosophy" (thinking) concerning what I would do. That is until the day I found myself in that very situation. I wished I could say I held to my former words and set emtions on the subject, but to my surprise I did not. The situation caused me to take a good hard look at myself and my own thoughts verus reality of the real sistuation. Does it always end like that? Do all women think they will never put up with that and then it happens and then they fail? Absolutely not, some do just as they said they would do. However, the point is...the hardship causes us to look AT US AND GOD in an honest way. Can't fake it anymore, can't pretend to know the answers and even if we know them can't always do what we know is right...hense the law of Moses that no man can keep. Was God evil to place me in that situation to reveal my true self to me? God forbid. Was I angry with God because of it? No, although some will be, which is not evil either. Because the whole point no matter how you react is you are FORCED to face YOURSELF and your feelings about God. Jonah was! Illness acomplishs this, deaths accomplish this, all trials and tribulations accomplish this! Job was an upright man in Gods eyes and he said so, all his trials and tribulations were to REVEAL this very truth to Satan and those watching, his friends, his wife. Have you ever considered that the Lord might use you MORE in this area to reveal his power and Glory through you and to you and OTHERS who are watching? Although in religions it's spoken just the opposite, it's said that these things happen to you because you are the free picking of satan unless you get saved, ofcourse all overlook that part. The part that you are incharge of your own salvation because you have the choice to do it or not and Jesus is just the means to accomplish your goal. But we are NOT saved of ourselves! It is Gods will that all men be saved and not in a method in which they can boast of it either. No man comes to the Son EXCEPT the father draw him. God is not evil, illnesses and deaths are not evil. You asked me if Jesus ran around doing evil to others but I would like to ask you if God was evil to have his son beaten, smacked, spit up, mocked, spit upon, nailed to a cross and put to death in the flesh? Of course you're going to say NOW WAY and that's not the same, but my friend is most certainly is!!! How is it you can see the "good" in that yet all other such things are evils? Is it because it is 2000 years later and now you know the purpose? Well how about them who stood that day and watched it, it not being even three days later when he would arise yet? They were FORCED to look at themselves and their beliefs AND at God, and he is no different today. I know you have lived long enough on this earth to say many years after the fact, wow I know why that happened it was because of .....But no man is joyful while the chastiment is occuring. You see chastiments are NOT PUNISHMENTS for sins or wrongdoings (ask God about Job) they are to reveal the Lord to you and YOU TO YOU your true heart!!! Even though Job was and upright man who loved good and escwed evil, and even when the hardships came in all the things he said concerning God he sinned not with his lips, yet there was some pride in that heart of his that God wanted to reveal to Job, even after he set Job up as a light to those around him during the process. In the end Job's pride was revealed, and his friends saw his faith through the whole ordeal and Job himself acknowledge in the end he needed to be quiet now because although he knew much and had much faith...these things were given him of God and he didn't know "nuttin" in the end. That's what Job learned for himself by the experience. Count it all joy when you suffer trials and tribulations...is not an empty usless ridiculous word. But see my friends when they come though you'd love to live in that manner and have that peace of mind and think you would even...you might very well find that you are VERY angry and resentful instead. The point being you will find out YOU in the hardship and also your true thoughts about God. All these things the Spirit performs in men to the GLORY OF GOD who does all things and to whom all glory and honor and priase belongs!!!

Hello Waysider, I can understand yours and others need to explain to me because I am percieved as an outsider (no disrespect taken) because I told you I was not a member of the way interational. But I would like to add to that, I'm very familiar with what you wrote above and I'd like to add a few things to it that I do not see there. Not being permitted to vote, not being permitted to join the military, not being permitted to recieve a blood transfusion in effect watching your spouse or children die if one is needed, making that decision to stand by and accept their death rather than give permission for a blood transfusion. One must also SHUN their entire family who is not part of the religion. Not ever permitted to go inside a chruch. Not ever permitted to speak to a minister. TV and raido programs not permitted to be watched or listened to as well as movies at the moive theaters. Not being permitted to ever celebrate any type of holiday or birthday. Manditory reporting of fellow member if you see them do any of these things plus the ones you listed in your own account. Not permitted to hold any type of government job or political office. Adhereing to a list of jobs not permitted to be employed as. Children not permitted to date until the age of 18 and only then by chaperone and for the purpose of a prospective husband or wife. Divorcing a spouse who leaves the religion. Shuning all adult children over the age of 18 who are not members. Forced baptism after a certain length of time or shunning. Not permitted to engage in ANY social activity with a non member including but not limited to dinners unless you are in the process of making them converts. Making non members converts in a certain length of time or else shunning them. Not permitted for your children to say the plege of alegiance or even stand while others are saying it. Not to permit your children to engage in any social school activity. Home schooling perferred to public school. The type of employment acceptable for women is cleaning houses or offices. Required hours a week in service to the religion anywhere from 10-20. I could go on and on but I think you get the picture that I am not an outsider to this "way of life" you are so dillegently try to explain to me. As I said before in previous posts there is nothing that has happened to you that is not common to all men. In other words just because a person tells you they are not a TWI member and never was it's not often wise to assume they need educated in the ways of you former life so that they could at least try and understand, but in your mind never fully, really, as you so elequently stated. The desire to continue to set yourself in a special class of people is only the effects still lingering of your former religion. Assuming that people can't possibly understand your pain and anger and hurt because they were not apart of your religion is display of a STILL "special class of people" that you thought you found to begin with. And I'd like you to consider that there are people in this world who HAVE NEVER GONE TO CHURCH or been apart of ANY religion who live these kind of lives just because they are involved with abusives spouses or parents who are often murder them for not complying. It is common among all men. I'm sorry you feel and "excluisvness" here but it just is not so. The only exclusive part of your whole experience is the NAME of the orgination, certainly NOT the expereince. I'm sorry I almost feel like I need to lay my "credentials"of abuse on the table here for people to relax and accept when I say, "I know what you are talking about" instead of just at face value accepting it because I said I did. I have at face value accepted everything every one has said about their feelsing of betrayal and anger and disappointment and they didn't need to explain to me what kind of life they lived in that religion for me to beleive it. I would have believed you wayside (and already did) without the laundry list of evidence of your abusers. But since you put it up there, I complied to it and placed my own for you to witness so that we can get past the "you just don't understand no disrespect intended" conversations. Let none us fool ourselves or kid ourselves that we have a corner on abusive lifystles whether in a name of a religion or otherwise. What happens to you my friend is COMMON among all people. You may or maynot agree with that statment, some might even find it resentful. I'm not belittling anyone's experience but at the same time I'm not making is some special thing either. WE all go through these things for a reason and a purpose which is why it IS common among all men. I'd like for you to honestly consider the why of your experince instead of the harrowing experience itself. Paul spoke to them who came to him concerning the aweful things they suffered. Yet he told them as I tell you today, you have not suffered anything more than others or myself. Wayside I heard in your words you make a seperation between your experience in the Way and God. Your ok with God it really isn't a problem with Christ or God you say just with that cult. I'd ask you to consider for yourself linking the two together for a moment. If you don't want to that fine, it's just said for you to consider. Till next time...have a great day!!!

Hello Bramble, I'm not sure what your are asking with the "how does free will fit into this" question. Fit into what? And what do you mean by free will? Also it's wonderful that you know what the intent of your mind was when you began considering TWI fellowship. I'd like to ask you if you found what your intent was at the time, and if not has your intent now changed? I'd also like to ask a question but I fear that the very quetion itself will be offensive to you or possibly some here, having said that I'd like to state I'm going to ask it, but please accept that my reason for asking is not to offend it is a honest question that you don't even have to respond to here, just one you might consider for yourself. I can understand your postion about the angry God who punishes and also because of it looking for the gentle God who forgives, do you think you'll ever find a God who lives up to your expectations of what God should be like? I mean do you think you'll ever find a God that lives up to the image you have in your mind of what God should be like to really be God? The reason I ask that question is because very often people church search to locate the nearest doctrine to what they have in mind their God would be like in an awesome world. I am certainly not making accusations here but speaking from personal experience and from the experineces of those I have met along the way. It is a very common thing among men to search for the least offensive doctrine or church that you feel willing to make some compromises to in the hopes to find the thing you are searching for. I have found and others as well that God is neither the hate you going to burn you in hell if you don't stack up nor the sit in the clouds and play a harp pie in the sky God which are both images of God taught to people by the various religions and denominations of the world. He is much more real than either of those two. If this subject matter brings you to anger or resentment or any other painful emotion we can leave it off and have it another day or never again. I speak all things from my heart and truly respect those who do the same. It is not a naturally occuring event for people to take stock of themselves and THEN display it among others. Most will only do that thing with close people whom they trust. The problem is that very often we have trusted our elders or ministers or our christian friends and been betrayed.

Hi George, Toche! That's exactly how I veiw those who speak to me, except I don't comtemplate who is it that is the giver or the reciever for the learning, all recieve and all give. I'm not at all offended if many have quit believing in a biblical God. And to those who express that to me I will respect that and not have a conversation with them concerning that as I believe I have already done in one occasion. And I am certainly never surprised if not everyone wants to hear what I say, I 'm not surprised or offended. We are all adults here and we glean from these posts and take what we will and leave the rest and not all people take the same things and leave the same things. Thanks for your comments, your honest heart is very refreshing. And I include all people in that who speak their heart!!! No matter where their thoughts lay on the subject.

Hello Belle, What a wonderfully kind welcome! Belle you said ... Cattcar, good questions and I kind of see where you're coming from. When I left TWI a lot of well meaning people would tell me, "you're right where you're supposed to be," and I thought "WTF?? I'm supposed to be hurt, depressed, suicidal, divorced, childless and alone? What the he11 kind of god is that?!?!" Answer: the kind of God Job knew, and paul knew, and ezekiel knew, ect... I can appreicate your resistant to actually being the purpose of God to "have" the bad experience. I understand you saying how you could learn from it but your not to sure how it was "caused" by God. Kinda like I guess people say, well the bad came from elsewhere but God used it for good. I think some one here even said that although I don't recall the name. I'd just like you to CONSIDER not agree with or disagree with but consider this... I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. I'd like to ask does this have to be a "christian" site for me to speak of God here? I mean if I read betweens the lines it sounds like to me (and I could hear this wrong) you don't want me to focus on God and how this all relates to him. Or maybe it's "I've had enough of god for a while" or something to that effect. Or maybe you think I have thoughts that people want to hear or not hear christain things here. I'm not sure what you mean by this isn't a christain site, do you want me to be quiet because I sound christian? Acutally I don't even know what christain sounds like really. I'm not here trying to indoctrinate anyone or get you to go to a church or place do's an don't upon anyone or make judgments about if your right or wrong. I'm relaying experienced and wisdoms that came from them and from who the wisdom came. I see alot of pain and hurt and anger and feelings of betrayal here and I can idenify with all that and some and my words are for encouragement and comfort and considerations in the ways of a peaceful mind. But if what I say is unwelcome I can move on with no hard feelings just say the word and I'll be moving on. But if I stay I'd like some sense of respectful conversations and by respectful I mean that it is acknowledged what my aforementioned intent is and nothing else, no labels, christain or otherwise. Since you don't know of me let me give you some things about me. I don't make assumptions like the first person who responsed to me said, I don't make judgments like you are used to in the religious world, I don't have intents other than to write whatever is given me to write at the moment, I don't even know how what I write is used, accpeted, or otherwise and that is PERFECTLY fine with me. Having said that, if it becomes apparent that what I say is burdesome or offensive to the person, I will politely not continue the conversation. I just happen to know that this world is not some random mess that God comes behind with a mop to clean up once it's all gone so very wrong. I believe and know God created the lemon that lemonaid is made from. I also know if what I say is offensive I can keep my faith and beliefs to myself happily. I only began to write here because of the thread where someone asked what do they other people think of us, do they think were are (fill in the blank) YOu all have gone through what I and others have gone through, the exact same thing, it's common among ALL religions. One doesn't need to be worse than the other. All men go through feelngs of betrayal and anger and disilussionment, and fearfulness to leave, And what they do after is also the same, some search for a new church to replace the old, some look to God alone, and some turn away from anything that even sounds religious. It's all common all over the world in all faiths. Though what else is commone is most say ...to a precieved outsider (not a member of their particular religion or church) you just can't understand the depth of this thing and even if they don't say it they think it....because THAT TOOO is common among all religions. Thanks so much for allowing me in your group for the brief time I was here!

Hello T-bone, I'd like to address your comment about how people go around breaking the ten commandments therefore is show some sort or level of defiance against God's will if you will bare with me a moment. No one can keep the ten commandments or any of the commandments of thier own will for any length of time. Many many have tried and have been brought to tears because they could not. You say the inablilty to keep them is in the context of defiance. To defiy someone is to not want to do it to begin with. So if someone doesn't want to keep them they are not in defiance of that. Now if someone wants with all their hearts to keep them and can't they still aren't in defiance because they truly WANT to keep them. We were NEVER going to keep them ever of our own. It's not a defiance against God's will. His will shows us we can NEVER keep them apart from Him. The first covenant waxs old and is passing away the second is this... Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. :) This is again quoted in Hebrews. The very first commandment, law, is how we shall have no other gods before God. But we can't do that or keep that of our own. Until the day the Lord writes that law commandment in your heart you will NEVER be able to keep it no matter how much you desire to. But the day he does write it there by His Spirit you will NEVER be able to break it. It is true with all of the laws and commandments, they are COMMANDMENTS. Anything that God Commands and then preforms cannot be broken by men. God himself does create, write in the heart, a vessel of honor and then can take that vessel and break it, and create a vessel of dishonor, and then break that vessel and create a vessel of honor again. If we can neither keep the laws with out the working of the Spirit and the writing of them in our hearts, then we can neither take credit or blame for doing or not doing. Again the glory goes back to the Father who's glory it is and his will and for his purposes. Jesus was such a man who was the will of the new covenant. He had the laws and commands written in him and he could not sin. He could do no thing of his own, and he knew it and confessed it. He spoke that he did whatsoever he heard and saw of his father. And his father was he who created him (wrote in his heart all his will) and also gave Jesus the eyes to see it and recognize it and give ALL THE GLORY to the father even going to far as to say he could do nothing of his own and that all things were done of his father in him. But today in another thread I read how some of you believe your faith or your words have created signs or wonders around you. Even our faith is given us, it does not come from us, it is a gift from God to know God. We don't believe because we want to believe we believe because God causes us to believe (draws us to the Son and writes it in us). There was a man who expressed that very thing in the new testament, he said to Christ...i believe, Lord HELP my unbelief. He recognized his own will and desire to believe and confessed that he did infact beleive, and in the same breath knew he did not and could not except Christ give him his belief. And if Christ give you your belief and strenghten it no man or doubt of your own will take it from you. If you could consider the truth of the new covenant that the Lord speaks of to the prophets that I quoted in this writing it might bring you some peace knowing you can do nothing apart from God and you are his workmanship and any man you judges you as to the right or wrong of your actions only judges another mans servant, namely God's servant the Christ. I hope my writing brings some peace or understanding but if it does not, that's ok, we can only see and hear and understand what God wills us to at any particular time and I have no stake in the matter as to who will or won't, it doesn't really matter to me personally, because I know God does all things! Peace to you and yours

Hello Rhino, Thanks for the warm welcome. I believe God does all things. I believe he sets up kings and takes them down, I believe he creates vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor and that each are for the purposes of Gods will. I believe what is written by the men who knew God in their day, and spoke with him in their day, and was guided by him in their day. It was God who raised up Pharoah for Gods very will and purpose. It was God who harded Pharoah mind so that he would not let his people go no matter what Moses said or did. Why? For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. I know that you all have been through an harrowing experience. My original questions was to cause you to consider that the experience and the delivering from it (for who ever needed to be delivered from a great and wonderful thing?) was so that you might know that it is HE who loved you and brought you to it and through it that your eyes might behold him, and your witness of His works would declare his name and might thoughout all the earth. It has been my expereince that some people will love God as long as all that they recieve of him is his good will and that they are his chosen vessels of honor. Those people who believe that way will turn back from him when they are first introduced to the reality that He also creates vipers, and sends them among the people to bite them that they might die (as in Moses time in the wilderness) unless they look upon that very viper as having come from God (as in the viper constructed and lifted up on the pole by Moses). While all people will sign up for the vessel of honor and a life of peace and all good things from God and believe this is of God those same people beleive they recieve no ill from God, yet Job knew and said to his wife after that all his chldren were dead, all his cattle were gone, all his money gone, and sore and boils upon his skin.. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. My question to you is will I be hated here or not accepted here if I can see the GLORY of GOD in your delieverance from the vipers that He himself sent among you where you were to bite you? Because what I hear is that you all have left and escaped but you don't seem joyful of that, and I don't hear priase to God who delivered you from the bondage he first placed you in. I hear now that you're free, anger at that viper that bit you. Now having gone through this myself, I know how natural and normal it is to feel that way at first, however, this does not last forever, just long enough for us to be corrected by God as to WHO it is that does all thing and to whom the glory of it belongs. I know you all know the example of the 10 lepers that Christ came upon and healed. Every one of those 10 he healed yet only ONE came back and thanked him and gave him glory! Some of the testimony I hear here is how some here think it is by their own wisdom they escaped or left. My questions were to bring some things to your mind that you might consider who it was that delivered you from the bondage you were initally placed in. I'm not trying to convince you or prove to you my beliefs, I am merely giving you something to consider in case you have not considered it, and forgive me if I have missed it but from the many posts I have read here (and truly I have not read them all) I do not see glory to God in the deliverance from the bondage that occured in this religion. Instead what I have read is how glad you all are that you finally wised up and got up the courage to leave a religion you picked for yourself. In following men or looking to men to find God you have learned a valuable lesson, which brings you closer to God if you are able to see that very lesson. Some will and some won't. Although the intent in your minds might have been to learn of God and the bible and be saved and live right and find God, God's intent was to take those thoughts and show you himself in your tribulations and trials. Although we think we have finally decided to look for God or live right or get saved....It is God to drew you near to the Son and caused you to want to begin this search. For none can come to the Son EXCEPT the FATHER DRAW him. So I will ask, how many of you can see Him in this? If you can't that's ok, He will continue to draw you and send you searching and place you in various situations and continue to reveal himself to you until you can see it was He alone that does all things and none can stay his hand nor deliver themselves nor find him of their own apart from him. Love to you all, and prayers to the healing of your anger and pains. And Rhino, I started this to just respond to you but as you can see it is really not a personal message alone it's to us all. If some things don't pertain to any of your sistuations then you can cast that aside and take what you can from what I wrote.

Hello potato, Although you say "welcome" in the beginning of this you end with "keep my god to myself". I can see clearly your anger at my suggestion to take a look at your experience from a different perspective. I can also see clearly that you're not receptive to my (how did you call it...oh yeah) "line of reasoning" so you won't think me rude then to not continue this subject with you. Although you may continue to read mine and others responses throughout this thread I will not be responding to you if you decide to join in because you spoke your mind and your disapproval of my questions is crystal clear. I also do not feel welcomed by you, instead I feel like a target for your anger and hate, even though you don't know me. Having said that, I will respect your request and keep my god to myself concerning you. Have a great day.