chockfull

I'd say KJV tossing is NOT a good course of action at all. There are lots of things it's still good for. We all knew long ago that the KJV was not God-breathed. Nobody advocated throwing it out back then. What I definitely AM advocating is looking at written PFAL as the Word of God, and the KJV and things like it are "aids to devotion." ------------------------------------------------ Mike, if you can't see the problem with looking at written PFAL as God-breathed whereas the KJV is not God-breathed, then there's not a whole lot more to discuss. It's like you have this weird view of VP like he is Balaam's @$$ or something. I guess we could discuss my topic of God-breathed halitosis. Thoughts?

skyrider you've got something here. Definitely you can see evidence of the Way Headquarters kind of being like the North Korean regime. I'm sure there are a lot of long-time staffers there who justify staying because they have no other life or friends. They see things getting worse and worse. But they are too scared to leave. Maybe it won't affect them. Maybe they won't p1$$ off Rosie or DeLoser. Maybe they won't be like the ex-vice president in the Revival and Restoration video - who got booted for some never to be known reason due to an NDA. But when you see good-hearted happy go lucky people just decimated by those evil position climbers, it makes your average person respond. And the Way kind of rides the line right there. And what reward is there for the position climber? Look at Rupp. All those years of smooching bootie - where did it get him? Second dog in charge. You saw how upset he got, posting up his resume on the internet. Lofty accomplishments - world outreach leader this, head honcho that. How many calls do you think he got from other Christian ministries? Even one? I mean I know of 3 churches in my local area that have done a nationwide search for a new pastor, all at a more comfortable wage than the Way pays. Do you think he even crossed their radar? The Way is an employer that once someone gets on their payroll for a number of years, they are more and more handcuffed. They know of no other way to bring in food other than act like a Way leader. And a Way leader is not a Christian pastor.

Yes shocking. Why they would never think of doing things like sending a group of 4 young hot women out together to "move the Word" now, would they?

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

my "thesis" is Scope, as opposed to Crest. He's a big picture guy as opposed to having reached His peak.

I've got a question for all of y'all "God breathed" professors. Since we are talking various degrees of comparison figures like simile, metaphor, hypocatastatis. Sometimes when we wake up in the morning my spouse and I find ourselves with some severe halitosis. We refer to it as "moose breath" for some reason - I doubt either of us are actually familiar with that. Does God ever have bad breath?

So.........personally.........inspiring.........given my screenname. LOL. Like me - in a state of depression, I switched from a gourmet nut shop called the Way to a sandwich and coffee shop called a local church. Because of this, I have invented fast food Christianity for wayfers.

Actually, thanks for the story. It really helps me understand where you are coming from. It seems like you went through a disillusionment with everything from learning the same non-whitewashed history we all have learned here. At least until about 2000. I actually can see where in a vacuum in the absence of anything better to take its place where fundamentals from PFAL would be what you would cling to. My story is different. I didn't learn the non-whitewashed story anywhere near the timeframe you did. Much later. Also, I had previous mainstream Christian experience prior to the Way, where most did not. It was easier for me to see the VPW experiment as detracting from the overall body of Christ rather than adding to it when you consider it from a broader perspective and timeframe. The entire "household" vs. "body" teaching propounded first by VPW and enacted by the Way is hugely divisive, and I believe to be anti Christ. (Not seed crap like they taught - just stupid and self-serving). Scripture is great for a source of inspiration and wisdom. But fundamentalism is misguided. Do I need to be a scribe? No. Do I want to be a Pharisee? No. All I need to answer those questions is to read the gospels. And look at the Way, and all its splinters. That is what Paul describes as faith being shipwrecked.

Hi Mike, You're right on these facts. As many know I was young then. http://web.archive.org/web/20030219041757/http://greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/misc/adultery.htm Those are the details for any to read. Apparently it was after VPW's death in 1986 that JS found out that VPW had sex with a young woman not his wife who had come to him. Another told him he would be killed if he tried to stop it. He was fired by Chris Geer. There might be some more input on this topic by another poster who was actually physically present there. However, it also seems you are singling out one aspect of my post to answer - and failed to address the rest of it. In a previous post you set forth an accusation that posters here present a pure evil viewpoint of VPW. I mentioned that we are just removing the whitewash that is present everywhere else. Why didn't you address that point? Not part of your agenda?

VPW studied homiletics and applied them to remove Christians from their local churches. He was employed by a local denomination until his criticism of foreign missions combined with an affair with a secretary that could scarcely be covered up caused his need to resign. He of course told a different story involving audible revelation from God and snow on gas pumps. So he resigned and started the Way. He tried to coerce church goers to take his class for years unsuccessfully. So to differentiate himself, he publishes "Jesus Christ is Not God" and calls all the heads of denominations "seed of the serpent". In support of this, he further develops logic, teachings, collateral materials and full books on the day Jesus died making a big deal out of inaccuracies of tradition. He also did this with Jesus birth, as well as how many people were executed with Jesus on the same day, how many times Peter denied him, etc. Flim-flam manipulation of scripture all with the goal of building a name and an empire as the only one who really knows about Jesus. All that background just so he could say "if you can't trust them on the simple details regarding Jesus life and ministry, how can you trust them with eternal life?" And win young hearts and undisciplined minds to do his bidding. Run them through a machine all geared to make VPW the next best thing to Jesus Christ returning in his resurrected body, a real living "apostle" that God told audibly he would teach the truths of the Bible "like it hadn't been known from the first century". And no, undoubtedly he did twist things beyond what anyone was able to accomplish with scripture since the first century. Way followers, you want truth you will never arrive at being in the Way until the next century? John 3:16 Find a local church you like.

This point Mike is making probably has some validity to it. Less involved readers tend to dismiss GSC out of hand. They see "the other side of the story" and it is too disgusting to process. So they rationalize and judge us here. In fact your typical Way follower if asked about GSC if they even have heard of it will label it something like a "vomit-fest". Many come here and confront us telling us to "get over it". Get over what? The continued lying regarding and coverup of the Way's history? I can't "get over" something they are actively continuing to do, including firing people, marking and avoiding people, slandering their name, and giving them the "bum's rush" off of Staff at HQ in New Knoxville. They build their top leadership from old friendship groups in swinger's clubs. They continue that to this very day, and use VPW's plagiarized works from a lack of scholastic effort combined with the "spiritual 40 club" connections putting him in contact with new material to plagiarize. I am just continuing to tell the truth about it. I personally have very little stake left in whatever people think about the Way. However here at GSC, other case studies seem to point in a different direction. For example, a recently involved poster here, Grace Valerie Claire, seems to have been on a deep dive reading through a good portion of all the old threads over the last 6 months. For more deeply involved readers, GSC allows them to see "the other side of the story", the one that the Way International covers up because it causes them to lose what they love most - money, influence, power, followers. To her, GSC probably represents a freedom from the past of sorts, although I won't speak for her. So Mike, as the minority here posting your opinion in support of VPW's life and ministry, yes you will be outnumbered. You are welcome to your viewpoint. Mine simply differs. God bless.

Hey Mikey Mike - he who professes most ultimate understanding of PFAL. Just out of curiousity, how many PFAL classes did you coordinate / run? Assist ? Class crew? Refreshments? Undershepherding? How many times audio? Video? Live? I'm trying to get an understanding of what level of comprehension we are talking about here.

I wonder if fundamentalists will ever be able to view "God inspired" as something other than that which would send them on a scavenger hunt for like-fitting puzzle pieces so they can sit in their safe little room and amuse themselves by trying to solve puzzles with their minds.

Yeah - I don't buy the summation that the model being sold here is pure evil. It is just with all the whitewashing going on, people deserve to know the truth including the other side of the story covered up by whitewash. Like how Scho3nheit was fired by VPW for doing a simple word study paper on the word "adultery". I mean you don't really need to even try to illustrate that side of things. Your challenge to "spend a year with some pfoPFAL [sic] people" sounds remarkably like VPW's challenge to spend 3 months just reading the collaterals. What makes you think I don't currently live with individuals who are graduates of PFAL many times over?

I guess we have the idea floating around that since "truth is free" copyrights don't matter. i.e. it all belongs to God anyway. This is kind of a "hippy free love" approach to the scriptures. I would say the problem with a hippy free love approach is boundaries. Sure. Love is free. Everyone can share. Except when it comes to these pesky human boundaries that people set up - you know, like marriage, virtue, one wife type of concept. Where violating those boundaries causes injury and / or possibly death to another. Part of that concept of truth includes the boundaries of how humans live with each other and interact in a virtuous way. Without those constraints every man just feeds his lust according to his own belly.

Yeah definitely when you mix those phrases up with "the suggestion of a leader is tantamount to a command", you have a scenario where you'd best watch out before drinking Kool-Aid.

Ah, Greasespotters, we have uncovered a new truth in Biblical research regarding the Way. An oxymoron. Smart Folly. Yes, this encapsulates "proven ministry research" - i.e. Research which has been proven to be consistent with other ministry research. This other ministry research has been proven to be consistent with other published works that have other authors names on them. So what exactly does "proven ministry research" guarantee? That you are absolutely 100% dealing with real genuine authentic plagiarized material.

Incorrect. In-residence study hall has been dedicated 4 hours a day to the class materials the Way put out for quite a while. Meaning class syllabus, collaterals, etc. were focused on to the exclusion of other research materials. They take the ministry classes in-residence, except over an extended period of time so they can work the materials 4 hours a day during that timeframe. So that which you accuse all of us of, not really understanding the depth of VPW's teachings, is false, egotistical, and presumptuous. Many posters here, myself included, probably have spent more time in the collaterals and teachings of VPW than you have, for example.

It's too bad you systematically reject and ignore the KEY details to understanding VPW's life and "ministry".

Calling that a "thesis" is a stretch. This gives the false promise that there will be logic somewhere in the discussion. That's not the case. All there exists is an unhealthy VPW worship and an inability to come to grips with what life has shown us about PFAL. For instance, a big part of the PFAL written work is the work that is in written form in Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. In fact, that book VP considered among his "greatest work". He shared about writing it how he checked into a motel away from his family for a week and ate a diet of grapes only while immersing himself into the 350 plus verses on holy spirit usage in the Bible. The result of that book is one that John Juedes does side by side comparisons on and has what I estimate as 70% directly copied material from JE Stiles book on the holy spirit field. This book was published 3-5 years earlier than any of VP's published works. So the fruit of what was produced contradicts VPW's account of what was produced. The explanation is simple. What VPW accounted about writing RHST in Elena Whiteide's book is partially true. The part left out was the fact that he checked into a motel where nobody could observe him scribe copying JE Stiles book. Then he lied about that part by omission.

In absence of scholastic skills and the ability to manage things according to actual Biblical input, Wierwille's laziness condemned the ministry to being run by catch phrase. It is still run that way today.

And here, with Twinky's post, we find common sense logic so missing in supposed Biblical research. This kind of logic is beyond Mike's capabilities. In fact, the unhealthy worship of VP and his plagiarized life works robs Mike of this exact kind of common sense logic. This is the kind of logic purported to be emphasized and taught by the BOT of the past - Uncle Harry - VPW's millionaire furniture business owner brother who funded all his schemes, and Howard Allen, his best friend and fellow swinger's club participant, who is now married to VPW's son's widow. What Twinky is doing here is using the SAME LOGIC and research principles that VPW showed in his class about "How the Bible interprets itself" to evaluate VPW's own works. So no, VPW's plagiarism and lack of scholastic effort was not divinely inspired, it was simple laziness at best. This is the man who as you can read about in Charlene's book Undertow who published Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed while not attributing any of the writing work to the two men who did all of the research. And no, it's not excusable because he was the "overarching authority" of the research department. He did the same thing to those 2 guys and to John Schoenheit that Rosie is doing to people nowadays. Kicking them out, slandering their name, stealing their work, and consolidating his power. That's not a real prophet. That's a 2 bit hustler.

Mike, I'm reading through the above and I must say, you sound like you could be the perfect Way International follower. I mean you worship VPW. To the point you are even making up your own words and process about Biblical research. And wrapping it up with rhetoric (major thesis). You refuse to consider the fruit of the man's life with respect to how he actually lived as opposed to what he taught. And you are like his greatest spokesman, even greater than his own wife and children. What more could the Way want? Did they kick you out?

So much more class than my post. I rhyme to shake out the cobwebs. Because to me although I knew certain details, putting them together into a large picture just didn't happen. The circuits were disconnected. It took too many years and too much personal impact to my life to put those details together into a coherent picture. And that coherent picture includes a detailed historic timeline of the Way. From inception to current. And it is NOT what they project. People don't work that hard to hide things that are appropriate, true, honest, just, lovely. They work that hard to hide the exact things we bring to light here. That do exist. That are true. People live according to the lusts of their own belly. Those lusts in many ways are for power and influence. They worship their positions in the organization. The only overarching truth in their minds is "God called ME to THIS POSITION". Therefore they shut their ears. Actually their ears were welded shut by their own lusts for power. I used to know all of those fools and they me. In a time where it was my whole life. During a time where all I had was fake friends. A false "household". That false "household" led me to treat real friends poorly, real family poorly, real Christians poorly, real community from a position of condescension. The same way the false "household" treats people today. Why? Because they can't help it. Draconian rules. One way conversation. Teaching / Talking at people. Narcissistic viewpoints. The "household" I have today is kind of a ragtag amalgamation. I've got the family component. I've got the pet component, one that a corpse lifestyle never accomodated. I've got the neighbors friends component - a real community. You know, cookie exchanges, birthday golf. Shooting. Prayers over holiday meals. Respect each others church. One I didn't have moving rental to rental. I've got longtime friends that I visit. I've got real hobbies. I've got a career. The people I work with are like a strange family of sorts. There's politics at times. But nothing of the Way magnitude of viper's den. I've got my faith. I've got a church. And a new viewpoint on the stupidity of fundamentalism. Actually, my life isn't all that bad today all these years after leaving the Way. So why do I still come here and make up funny little rhymes? I could give a flippant answer, but honestly coming here and reading and writing helps me to recover from that false "household". I'm still putting together threads of truth from that whole time period, years later. And in a way, I guess the posters here are a part of the ragtag amalgamation of a household I've got going on now. And if my meanderings help inspire similar paths, then perhaps I also am performing my 18 Hail Mary's as an act of contrition from being a part of the Way leadership. So go ahead and judge me and my "household" I know you've been doing it for years anyway. I'd put it up against yours any day of the week, Way followers. R&R aspiring "leadership", splinter group followers and leaders.

I really think GSC is still a lot of innies as well as people who have left's guilty pleasure. People like to hear the ring of the truth. Especially in a highly controlled environment that is putting out a LIE as the big party line. The Way doesn't have ANY kind of a history put out there - little less an OFFICIAL history. Actually the only history of the Way you are going to find anywhere is here on GSC. It just isn't told other places. The Way is too C-H-I-C-K-E-N to put out an official history. Because it would cause your average person to say "No, thank you" to an invitation to attend one of their fellowships. It's OK I can do the last 25 years or so for you in one little rhyme including foreshadowing for the future LOL. History of the Way (to finger snaps) BellaDonna and RosieFox sittin' in a tree K-I-S-S-I-N-G First comes love Then comes the dissolving of a marriage Then comes baby Jean-Yves In a Pharisee carriage (snap) With a side of "Yes Ma'am". For Chocolicious Sam I am. (snap) And a little blue pill. For Magic Bill. (snap)