chockfull

This is an example of twisted data. Your informal polls on this website. You have been trying to gather this kind of data for greater than a decade. Most people ignored your polls and did not answer them. The reason why is your poll is a transparent attempt at VPW hero worship, which gathers data related to how attached to VP's last teaching people are decades later. VP gave a last sermon on "The Joy of Serving". This is something I would call an oxymoron. After a life filled with exploiting people and obtaining joy in them serving him in various ways, to include sexually outside of his marriage, now he teaches on the joy of serving God and others. This is a logical and rational approach to VPW's written works and last teachings. There is not some "magical canonization" that occurred similar to when Joseph Smith met the angel Moroni and received the golden tablets of Mormanism, where God just ignored the man's heart and picked him randomly anyway to convey a message to a new generation. No God looked on his heart, and did not communicate with him. Then VPW used his 5 senses homiletics degree to get people to worship him like many other cult leaders do. You are looking for an audience of one. Yourself.

Sounds like we are saying the same thing. Sorry for talking past you there for a bit.

I'm not sure I understand this, but I can continue to be indignant, alarmed, and telling the truth about the Way without them having any control over my life.

Cheers Rocky. Maybe a bit testy. But the incident I quoted you is real. A high ranking individual in the Way did use that verse to try and excuse the BOD behavior to me, and to get me to whitewash over it and continue on with the organization. You wrote: ""All men are liars." from Psalms 116:11 . Of course, more recent translations/versions don't make this the exclusive domain of the male gender. We can either be alarmed and indignant about it or we can accept that it's the nature of things (a fact of life) for individuals and groups (organizations)." My feeling is that the minute I stop being alarmed and indignant about the Board of Directors antics, cover-ups, control, ruining of lives through slander and lies, that's the minute they whitewash over the fence I was painting and move on. The whole nature of this forum is to point out the other side of the story of the Way, not to accept that it is the nature of things for individuals and groups, thus excusing the evil behavior and equating it to other normal or semi-normal human behavior in society. So I absolutely believe there is a difference between corporate Machiavellian politics and the Pharisee organization that is built up called The Way International. While all men are liars, not all men are Pharisees.

Yes that portion of my post was certainly tongue-in-cheek. They do have some kind of measurement for "authority compliance", and it's vastly different for say the nation of India and the US. But beyond that, yes there are "classes" everywhere. Is this the same as a caste? Hmmmm. interesting question whether socio-economic classes are the same as a caste system. I guess one of the main differences is that you can possibly break our of a socio-economic class but you are stuck for life in a caste system. So does the Way have its own socio-economic "classes" or its own "caste system"? Hmmmm. From my observations, the closer you get to the top of the 11 categories I identified, the more it is like a caste system. Down at the lower levels, you can change by taking a class or even extremely by enrolling in the Corpse. From there people get stuck - 10, 20, 30 years plus - all dedicated to supporting the upper levels of the caste.

That verse still fails to excuse the behavior of the current Board of Directors as much as it did when I brought up some of my current concerns to an acting Region coordinator and this is what he responded with. He went on currently to try and convince me to stand with the current BOD because I don't even like everything about myself so I won't like everything about the ministry. I just needed to agree on the major things and forget all the rest. because that is human nature. Of course it is my fault for not expecting evil. If you want to accept that is the nature of things that is your business. I disagree. That is the nature of evil. Truth needs no deception. You must be a Patriots fan. Sorry for your loss. LOL.

Bro, rhetorical question. Plus, audience participation requires a more detailed analysis. Perhaps there are those involved in caste levels they have not yet identified. Plus, what organization needs 11 levels between the recruit and the CEO? And don't call me Shirley!!! LOL!!!!

I work in a field that highly emphasizes this culture difference between America - the land of the free, home of the brave entrepreneur and India - land of the caste system. Now to expand upon the discussion you highlighted a few categories: 1. Clergy 2. Way Corpse 3. Name Tags - i.e. Adv. Class Grads. IMO you left out a few layers of the Phariseedom. If you are not aware of the layer and it affects you, are you naive? May I propose a more distinct breakdown? A. Rosalie F Rivenbark B. Rosalie F. Rivenbark and Donna Lombardi Martindale (not sure of current official name) C. Board of Directors D. Presidents Cabinet E. Way of the USA Trunk Coordinators office plus Region Coordinators F. Country Coordinators / Limb Coordinators G. Branch Coordinators H. Household Fellowship Coordinators I. Bible Study Coordinators J. Advanced Class Graduate K. Graduate L. Follower of the Way

Does The Way International have a functioning Caste System operationally? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India Discuss.

I wanted to thank you for your heart and work in doing what was right in your time and ongoing into today. I agree with your conclusion and can only with you tell the truth now. Peace brothers.

Bring it! I find that human tendencies unchecked seem to run in parallel courses.

I totally remember a WOW year where this happened. I was in manufacturing. I was laid off on a mandatory company shutdown over 2 weeks in July. Then in August for Corpse Week / ROA I was back working on a no vacation mandatory policy. I had to quit to attend CF/ROA. Not only this, I remember the distinct privilege of being reamed out because I only volunteered for a 4 hour shift at the ROA on a few days. During the only vacation I would have that year or any other year. How nice. The person reaming worked in the Way of the USA tent where he "worked 14 hour days". Funny every time I would stop by there were about 3 nice looking girls assigned to run to get him food. He was mostly lounging sitting down. And he got to BS with his friends and occasionally counsel someone to step up their haircuts to get their WOW money together. Also, he took his multi-week Way earned staff vacation every year. That was the stomping ground of one of the current Board of Directors. Good times.

It was one story with 20 something hippy children. However, as people like you say started getting married and popping out little ones who needed them to have a steady job, they started dropping off like flies. Wierwille wanted his free love 60s exploitive Jesus movement to continue well beyond the boundaries of logic, marriage, family, employment, and community. Well beyond the ability of his own even aging body to respond to it. That's the foundation of your Way ministry right there, new people. That's what is behind the "Timothy" statue in the auditorium lobby and the foundational class you are sitting through right now. Even though there has been time and a lot of whitewash applied.

When I look at modern Sharia law and the cultural history of the OT, it's like the same almost. Pretty degrading to women, very nationalistic, and closed minded. From a certain perspective I actually agree with what you wrote here.

I guess I couldn't do your outsider test. I've read and also heard recited some of Buddha's teachings. Most of what I know of that religion involves self improvement through self reflection. This is not contradictory to Christianity, and actually is a viewpoint or at least practice that many Christians could profit from but would never consider. People say it is "worshipping yourself" or "worshipping the creation", but then again people are idiots. They will build a KKK perception and then go home in their prosperity gospel new Cadillac Escalade.

Raf I struggle with OT concepts and morality. To me the best I can reconcile a lot of it is it being a "Mad Max Thunderdome" time of trying to follow God to the best of people's ability. And that God had to scale good down to look at least a little like the neighbors or people would reject it outright. But I have no great theological scriptural interpretation answers. Actually maybe one. The story of Abraham and his son. Maybe people mixed in their stupid idea laws with God's ideas. And literally every word of that Levite law wasn't directly from God, but a board of elderly men that look kind of like the Ayatollah. I mean there are OT intersections with Sharia law too.....

the temporal versus eternal is always something to consider. scripture for the fundamentalist is to me leading towards self-denial. One of the problems though with humans trying to look through the eternal which they are not really geared to do is then all human life starts to look cheap with respect to larger ideas of good and evil.

I guess the other side of the coin with respect to the devil is God. If you wanted to devise a system where good is rewarded and evil is punished and where people who followed you would be directed towards good, and you could provide strength and encouragement through acceptance of your son, but still respect the heart and behavior of people who didn't even believe in you to be rewarded according to good and evil, what kind of system would you devise?

I will respond to more of your post later. From this section there are some things to unpack. First I think exploring a class like someone close to me is taking in the university in a basic "Comparative Religions" class, the common thread among religions seems to be to direct humans toward virtue and away from vice. The acknowledgement is that humankind has the potential for both of these. Thus the typical comedic depiction of an individual with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other shoulder, and the person chooses. His choice causes whatever influence he didn't choose (angel or devil) to disappear and a bond to form with the other. There actually are a number of very interesting differences when you look at religions with respect to what specifically are considered "virtue" and "vice". There are quite a number of intersections. The primitive example you cite is an intersection as are a huge number of other things. Usually that intersection if you think about it is what the law in a community is based upon. There are also huge differences. Look at practices with respect to eating, sex, worship. Vastly differing even as to the common good for example sharia law. Then the next question becomes, because humans aren't too bright and keeping their lives according to a mental checklist is boring as all getout, is personification required? If not required, then is it helpful for humans? Then, you also raise moral questions which in my opinion have really little to do with whether an individual believes personally in an actual devil or a concept of evil or whatever. People holding themselves and each other accountable for their actions and their motives. This is good community behavior. When you get at the intersections and differences in practice is where there is struggle. For example, some of the reality TV Amish shows recently. Or Sharia law as I brought up before. I don't flinch at either the concept of or the actual presence of the devil. Neither robs me of my right, privilege or responsibility to accept accountability for the things that I do. Continuing the discussion...

Sometimes I try to unravel things. Other times it just seems like this huge tangled ball of yarn that it is better to snip out with scissors and tie two ends together. Some days I feel I can solve all sorts of puzzles. Other days not so much. I do know what is most helpful to me is to focus on growing where I want to be, and by nature that surely is away from where I was growing towards. I have no desire to be an apprentice Pharisee or a head Pharisee or any level in between. All that seems to be is circulating between elevators to different floors of Dante's 9 layers of hell.

Searching for meaning in life, I got hooked by love bombing and apparent scripture knowledge of some local Way ambassadors, took the foundational class. It all builds on it from there.

The problem is not that it is "taught" that it is acceptable to lie. The problem is that the Board of Directors of the Way lies setting the example of lying, and justifies their lying with platitudes like you describe above "not telling someone they are possessed", or "not telling all you know". So they lie by example, but expect the underlings not to lie. Especially to them when they ask intrusive and illegal information about their employees' lives. This is Pharisee behavior. The top Pharisees are allowed to lie for the greater good of the Phariseedom. But the lower Pharisees are not, unless they are lying to the public and presenting to their superiors similar motives. It is a culture of lying to the lower caste. The Way has rejected the trinity as a teaching since the publication of VPW's book "Jesus Christ is Not God". Since that is his teaching, that is what all wayfers believe.

So with the discussion between objective and subjective evil, some of that is a viewpoint discussion and some of that is a measurement discussion. If evil can be objectively measured, it is by a standard. What is that standard? Well a fundamentalist would obviously say "God's Word". But then we get down a rabbithole of descriptive virtues and vices such as "fruit of the spirit" vs. "fruit of the flesh" as described in Galatians and all sorts of judgement. Most religions have virtues they are trying to direct a soul towards. And moral codes wrapped up in that religion. From certain garments wore to types of prayer at times to refraining from certain foods or intakes at times. The more you live according to the moral code, the more you are supposed to see the virtue arise. If evil and good are subjective, subjective to what? One individual's moral code? More often than not it works out to be your local neighborhood's moral code, like the Native Americans for example. It's OK to rape, pillage, torture, kill, as long as it is a stranger tribe. Take their wives and kids for your own, grow your tribe. Pack animal ethics.

Bible teachings of course refer to Lucifer the fallen angel of light. In teachings the devil is sentient. Some view the Bible as a moral code with weird stories and old laws. From that perspective the devil certainly could be whatever perceived negative change agent is going on. I can recall a common proverbial phrase "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know".

For the purpose of this thread discussion, "exists" has to mean in reality as opposed to as a collective idea or some other form. That is the distinction between #1 - Exists #2 - Invented In reality to follow has to mean as a sentient being with a sentient identity.