chockfull

I thought you were going to say full moon due to all the crazies everywhere this last week. LOL.

Sure - so after research, here are some sources: http://www.nickiswift.com/100872/untold-truth-billy-graham/ http://historicaljesusresearch.blogspot.com/2018/02/why-billy-graham-gets-c.html https://eatapeckofdirt.com/2018/02/22/billy-graham-is-dead-god-save-america-from-false-prophets-amen/ Major criticism summary: 1. Anti-semitic 2. Chose politics over genuine evangelism message - even according to him. He courted the Presidents. 3. Succession - Franklin has issues. Where I do see the major difference between Billy and Victor Paul Wierwille is that Billy was not a drunken adulterer and plagiarist. I see no accounts of him obtaining a "sex motor coach" and traveling around the country. He notoriously would not be alone with a woman not his wife. But sure he had other issues. So does the empire run by his son.

I thought you just provided a very accurate summary of the history of the Way Publications department, the Way Productions department, and the so-called non-existent for decades Way International Research Department.

Hello - I was reading through this thread and it is very interesting. I'm glad we are talking more about faith and Revelations and topics of weight rather than forum rules, where posts go, and politics. It's a better discussion. Before digging into specific Revelations verses, I was going to comment at a high level. I've read that book over a number of years, heard teachings on it, read commentaries on it. In general, the title tells what it is - "Revelations" - of Paul - pictures of his into the future many times. We could get completely sidetracked on another topic to discuss what a "revelation" is and how exactly does this fit into the Way's scheme of "9 manifestations" with phrases like "all 9 all the time", and what they say revelation is, compared to mainstream Christianity. I mean I could spout off for a page or two I suppose about "foretelling" or "forthtelling" or a number of other VP gnat swallowing a camel scriptural manipulations, but getting right down to what is going on, Paul is seeing some visions. God's showing them to him. They have some very wild, different, and non-standard terms and imagery not found other places in the Bible. How does this work? I reject the Way's hypothesis of The Great Spirit and the lesser spirit. God finds a way to let Paul know, let Paul see. Leave it at that. Can we see the same things? Probably not. I didn't have those dreams, Paul did. But they are very detailed. I have read through an entire fictional series called the "Left Behind" series, detailing out an author's view of how the book of Revelations unfolds. 16 novels. And my impression after reading them is that the fictional author took far less liberties with what people literally saw in his novels than most commentators do writing their commentary on the book of Revelation. I absolutely believe that God would have to accommodate freedom of will by rewarding those that do not accept Christ according to their heart and how they live justly. Humans have since Christ's death used Christianity as a license to sin, then ask forgiveness. By sheer logic, if there is a God, and He is what is written about Him, He has to be just and fair. I'm not sure if I can absolutely pinpoint this to specific scripture. But I will present a caveat. I am no longer a fundamentalist. So all of the "perfectly fits together never contradicts hand in a glove" BS doesn't fly with me. Next, "working scriptures" or doing "word studies" or other types of activities like I did in the Way have taken on a different color. No longer am I trying to shoehorn 2 Greek words into a meaning that is 2 sizes too small, or comparing the Septuagint greek OT translation with the "Aramaiac" "Pedangta" texts and seeing how they match up when written from a completely opposite cultural point of view. Anyway throwing that out there up front. I'll get to the detail too but it takes me a little longer with this outlook and approach. Building on this, the first supporting section of scripture for this idea is Rev. 20:11-15. This section of scripture is known commonly as the "Great White Throne" judgement. So there are different judgments and times according to theologians. It does seem that most commonly the "Great White Throne" judgment is for all, not just Christians - in direct reading, commentary, and interpretations written of those verses. Being for all, those who lived virtuously would be rewarded regardless of their beliefs.

Yes I have. I'm kind of wondering what kind of weird parallel you are drawing here bringing it up. I really don't see how Brother Andrew's harrowing struggles smuggling Bibles into countries where they are illegal equates to stealing the guy who led you into speaking in tongues book about it, publishing it as your own original work with your name on it as author, printing it under your own printing press, and selling it for $$$$. How much overall revenue do you think The Way realized through sales of Receiving the Holy Spirit today? People estimate 100,000 people took PFAL, and those books were like priced between $5 and $9 for the most part, right? This is actually measurable. Also, the word sacrosanct is just dumb. Just sayin'.

Hey annio - nice to see you. I'm recovering too from years I've stopped enumerating. We do like to deconstruct Pharisee Central around here. "The best antidote to LIARS when it comes to the Way is Greasespot Cafe"

Hey GoldStar, The cat women were all dressed so similarly and like what if some of them have children? Hence the reluctance for names and details. Sorry for being vague but I thought more about it. Yes that one thread where I mentioned the ex-Pres W and Billy kind of took off on its own. I was just thinking more of what you said - "what public figure ever supported Drambuie boy?" So from what I was told about the Reagan inauguration invite, it was due to a direct political campaign contribution for a local GOP member. Your ABS at work - LOL. The mods don't chastise me too much because they recognize my true expertise in the use of emoticons LOL Anyways thanks for sharing your ideas. I'm not sure what we try to keep this place except alive, but I'm glad for a place to hear "the other side of the story" than the bronze Timothy statue outside the fence with the whitewash. I mean even in the classics wasn't Tom Sawyer whitewashing a fence as punishment for something, after which he escaped and floated down the river? The only thing we learn from history is that mankind learns nothing from history.

The indoctrination program funneled you towards what they termed as greater levels of "commitment", which equated to greater levels of control over your life you signed away.

My advice to investors. Bitcoin or Ethereum. As judges have stated in their opinions, keep your money far away from these clowns.

Okay so researching Billy Graham sounds like a lot of work, but when there are big stories in major news it isn't so much work.... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/analysis-divorce-drugs-drinking-billy-graham’s-children-and-their-absent-father

http://educate-yourself.org/tg/franklincoverupexcerptwashtimesphoto.shtml that's the article. facts seem to implicate a deputy White House counsel's former colleagues with hiring a group alleged to be a homosexual prostitution ring in to the White House. The terms "former colleague" seem to indicate fellow deputy White House counsel during the Reagan administration. Sheesh now you gonna make me go research Billy Graham because I wanted to contrast him with VPW as someone who people in power liked and wanted to be associated with.

sky I think you describe perfectly the challenge we have with the "snow-on-the-gas-pumps" crowd. I also experienced a more genuine Christian love I felt at the beginning of my involvement with the Way. And there were many good-hearted people who insulated souls from the evil above. Many times I was that good-hearted leader. At other times I fell short of that. I had a delusional view of the man and the message. I had to come to grips with that before I could come to grips with what God "called me to". Freedom of will is what God called me to, not enslavement. I think that is the true struggle of the Wierwille apologist. It is an internal struggle, whether it is manifested outwardly on these pages in discussion or not.

True but in a forum the "pile on" effect is real.

Hey GoldStar, I will be the first to admit in starting this thread that I personally have not done homework on Billy Graham and do not know the ins and outs of his life like I do the leaders in the Way I have encountered. And I did bring up the ex-Pres George HW Bush. I didn't mean to start a political discussion, I just was noticing the contrast between VPW and someone who people actually liked and endorsed publicly as a Christian minister from a position of power. Quite obviously that went sideways so I'll take responsibility there. I don't mind you ranting about Billy Graham seriously - as I said I am more ignorant on the topic than you are most likely. The ex-Pres - is probably a mixed bag for most - I do have some more second and third-hand personal accounts other than public for my personal judgement, but again, not wanting to start a political argument in any way. What public figure ever supported VPW?

The true way is Jesus Christ. He releases burdens, not imposes more. He frees people, not enslaves them to traditions of men. He tells the truth about evil, doesn't whitewash it. He called the ruling Jews "whited sepulchres". That applies so aptly to so many ruling religious bodies today. Shunning as a practice is anti-Christ. The psychological damage and evil it causes people is well documented. It is a widespread practice in religions regardless of what people are worshipping. For example, the Amish, the Way, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and Scientology. What do they all have in common? The practice of shunning.

Today marks the day the great evangelist Billy Graham died. He was known by many including our country's ex-presidents. ""His faith in Christ and his totally honest evangelical spirit inspired people across the country and around the world" - George HW Bush

So because you don't want to call evil in your life evil, you construct this strange idea that everyone else around you functions on a "Pure Evil" model of whatever we are discussing and specifically the Way? No they don't. Also, your statement "I'm lucky that I didn't personally witness much of it, so I can do the separation, and look only at the good." That's your doctrinal error. The scriptures instruct even in PFAL to "prove all thing and hold fast to that which is good". not "look only at the good". That is a delusional Pollyanna interpretation of straight scripture even out of PFAL. And you are asking all of us what we are missing from the teaching records of PFAL? Physician heal thyself.

What is missing in your model is the simplicity to call evil what it is.

OK outside of my more jovial reference from the movie "Leap of Faith" starring Steve Martin, I wanted to address this. You say that you have "already done that" with addressing the limitations of your mental model that PFAL is God-breathed. Here is your list: Things written by other people like Karen Martin and Kenyon in VPW's written works (they potentially would not be God-breathed). Can't prove it was God-breathed, just that VPW made big fat claims in PFAL kind of like the snow on the gas pumps to convince us subtly it was God-breathed. To me it begs quite a different question: "Why can't you identify more limitations of your mental model?" VPW basically plagiarized the structure and content of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" from JE Stiles, the man VP said led him into speaking in tongues when Oral Roberts was unable to. Why couldn't he just publish Stiles work through a reprint of it via American Christian Press? A local church I'm familiar with bases their beliefs and structure around the writings of a Christian man who is not attached to their church. The local pastor didn't steal his material, publish it as his own, drum up his image as "The Teacher", and try to build a cult, he attributed who the work and ideas the church was founded on were and are. Three of the Christian man's books are sold as part of the "introduction" small group class they offer. This church and many many others I am aware of utilize other Christian materials and attribute source and pay the authors. One example is Dave Ramsey is a popular guy in Christian churches, and they sell his "Financial Peace University" materials through their church. Again the local church didn't buy one copy of Ramsey's course, plagiarize it, and publish another one through their own printing press they owned. But VPW did. You want to say JCPS is "God-breathed" when you can pick up a copy of Penworks biography working in the Way's research department and hear the exact accounts of how that book was written by 2 other authors and taken by VPW. My feedback to you is that your mind itself and your rationalization are the greatest barrier to you being able to identify limitations of your mental model.

Aluminum siding.

I think that the Board of Directors could do better if they advanced from the Pure Whitewash model to a more realistic model. If they were actually humble, and accepted input from other members it would improve the quality. But they don't, and won't, because they have sacrificed their lives to obtain the highest level of power they have in the little podunc organization and their pride and ego keeps them there. Statements like "PFAL was of God" - while nice feeling and sounding, it has no level of detail within it. Of course God, constrained by stupid choices in youth and enamoration with flim-flam like scripture manipulation, had to work with something. Reading scriptures, seeking God - all of those things were and are genuine motivations and actions. That was the foundation that people used to assert their authority over me. The Way asserts authority over the individual to a far greater extent than your normal community church does. Now the organization no longer does any Biblical research, yet has that in their organization title. Splinter groups vie for relevancy and anyone to pay attention to them and send them money. Is it good that I studied scripture, pursued a relationship with God, and tried to treat people well when I was in the Way? Of course. But I think the whole "God led me there" is a violation in understanding of freedom of will. I chose to take PFAL, rather than continuing on in a different Christian venue or other religious pursuit. When I made that choice, God worked with it to bring the best outcome possible with the choices I made. The question remains not for condemning myself but for a more efficient plan for the future, if I would have made a different choice, what better outcomes could God have provided for my life?

GoldStar, welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe. Many times I wonder - was I in Kansas, Toto? LOL. With this writer having mutual friend connections to the head "Cat Woman" - the tall one with all of the funky amoeba patterns on the front, there was much more than the appearance that contrasted with the Bible college image. Have a cup and a roll on the house LOL.

Godel basically formulated a mathematics theorem for accepting the limitations of human mental models. If you are truly an admirer of his work, why don't you follow his example and tell us about the limitations of your mental model of PFAL being "God-breathed"?

I'm sorry - what are you claiming here about Godel? And what exactly is trivial about mathematics? I am failing to see a "tight proof".

Individual polls. In person, phone, email. And you found many who did not remember nor care about VPW's last teaching. Then because of this, you formulated a thesis. This thesis is along the lines of the "my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" scam fronted in PFAL. In logic, this is called a flawed major premise. In truth, many did not remember nor care about VPW's last teaching mainly because his life and the fruit of it negated the teaching.