chockfull

Hey sky - you know I've been thinking for a while about the mixture of people in the Way throughout the years. I'm sure percentages probably fluctuated, but from my experience over time I've always seen a few categories: 1. Good pure-hearted Christians - the laity mostly. 2. Laity Leadership - a mixed bag. Some mushrooms and opportunists. Some genuine pure hearted Christians. 3. Corps - hate to say but mostly problematic. some good hearted just like other categories. Modeled after Marines (i.e. unspoken expected commitment levels and following of instructions) the Way Corps were mostly trained to kiss behind upwards and take frustrations out on those under authority downwards. That was what was modeled. Like the Freemasons (LOL) they had secret initiations, behavior, phrases. sorry that came into play on another thread LOL. the older ones initiate the younger ones in the Freemason rites - all the way up to the Grand Poobah of the Board of Directors. Councils of Pharisees. After reading up on Greasespot some of those Councils involved illegal and immoral activity. I personally only experienced the people playing politics stuff, not the darker tales when I was in. As I've read mostly in court documents because those who should have told me lied about it, there was an "initiated inner circle" that I never knew about. I'm sure that is only one of many. Where is or was God? The answer has to be in the individual hearts. I think the pure essence of God being love has to mean very specific individually, as well as if you are talking about collectively it has to be from the perspective of a whole body of Christ. The whole teaching of "household of God" is a doctrine of devils. I mean there's this group that my mom can't be in because she doesn't tithe to the Way. Thus she will be treated as slightly less than the homeless guy coming to fellowship. God or man? I mean dear lord baby Jesus on a pogo stick how does that make any d@mn sense at all? It makes about as much sense as Sharia law telling them to cut off little girls sex organs and then subject them to rape from relatives as part of God's idea of culture. So when you get man's mixture of law and organization in in my opinion you get such extreme anomalies like the Way we see here. So much exploitation. So little God.

D@mn. The Way's handling of the Trinity reveals Daddy Issues. Truth is cold bra.

I personally have questions that don't seem to be addressed with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision fitting like a hand in a glove in scriptural explanation of what exactly was Jesus essence when. But I still talk at him. Not an exactly mathematical approach. Yet it is mine.

Does Jesus still have scars in his new body? The nail mark thing going on in the hands and feet? Or were they able to get that healed up? Wouldn't that present a problem during a normal handshake? Hey sorry that feels weird, but you know, I'm Jesus. Actually, I have heard teachings addressing that saying he had a resurrected body like Christians are supposed to get at his return, then during the ascension he changed into spirit. Now I do like Perry Mason, and I do like Buffy the Vampire Slayer also, but is the Trinity a vampire where we need lots of garlic and wooden stakes? Or is it just a one word representation of some monks handling of Christology that the Pope ratified in 325 and became part of mysterious chants, creeds, and a mystery religion concept that is left over from history and most of Christianity glosses over? Counselor?

Interesting stuff. The Thomas accounts with the resurrected Christ where I was just starting kind of offer up some interesting angles. "Doubting Thomas" - John 20:24-31 I mean Thomas vocal expression of what it would take for him to believe. Christ appearing. Simple instructions. Put your finger here (where the nail marks from the crucifixion were). See my hands. Reach out touch my side (where the spear pierced during the crucifixion). Stop doubting and believe. What exactly is going on here? The deeper I get into the minutae the more questions I feel come up.

Are you trying to tell me the Way has daddy issues? LOL

So to address a more general phrase of that question "was blood necessary" ? At all? yes the shedding of blood of the lamb was necessary for the atonement of sin from the OT law. Was that OT law from "God-breathed" or "man's idea"? Well I can record 10 commandments directly God breathed, upon tablets. Outside of that, you have another element. The human brain. But either way, scripture had to be fulfilled. The way I look at the human brain kind of involves an electrical circuit. If you picture God's pure idea and intent traveling around a copper wire circuit like electricity it has no resistance. However, in an electrical circuit, to accomplish anything you can't just have pure copper wire (as nowadays that would be stolen and sold), but you need other elements like resistors and capacitors. These components allow for the doing of work across a load and the storing of current. In a way, the human brain is like a combination of resistors and capacitors. God's pure idea travels around on a current, then encounters a person. i.e. resistor and part capacitor with a short term memory storage. When you get to the page of a written scripture or the carrying out of the pure idea there is a filtering down happening to accomplish work. The next concept getting into involves I think one of your ideas you've been trying to express across this thread amidst communication. This is the idea of timing. Before the resurrection? After the resurrection? Now? When I first started thinking about it I wondered to myself, "now what difference in the world would that make?" Then i started reading and thinking about the Christology discussion. If people are still really approaching this from a fundamentalist viewpoint, with the underlying assumption that there can't be a single word out of place in scripture or God will be illogical and fall apart (that's a lot of assumption but another topic), then what makes sense is to approach this from a Jesus literally transfigured once or a number of times first from God then to a human named Jesus and then back to God (or god-like son or something) when he resurrected. Is this the line of logic you were pursuing? Care to develop it further?

I was going to try to say something deep and meaningful but I just like the drummer's sunglasses. And nobody is more mod squad than the B52s.

The concept I was kicking around was that of duality - very similar to the "interface" word. Can something be more than one thing at the same time? There is a scripture about "being all things to all men". Does this present a duality of any kind? I've heard arguments about being a son and a father at the same time and a brother, depending on the to whom in the relationship. I mean I'm not ready to run right in and take up my cross for the Apostles Creed or anything, but the fact the trinity presents some form of duality of identity in Christology to me doesn't seem like something of the magnitude to split off completely from mainstream Christianity to form various splinter groups of faith. In the Way we were so proud to point out that the word "trinity" never appears in the Bible. No, "trinity" is a one-word description of a teaching that explains the duality of Jesus identity. Or the intersection of the duality of identity between man and God.

So now if Billy was shopping at your local grocer, and was in the potato chip aisle, do you think he would prefer 1. Ruffles With Ridges? 2. Lays Because Nobody Can Eat Just One? Esplain your reasoning.

Franklin and Beans. That's got to be the name of the political lobbyist group that used to be a ministry. Or maybe it always was a political lobbyist group. Oh crap. Politics and lack of Billy. 2 strikes for me here LOL.

Billy, Billy, Billy, Billy Whoops, Billy, Whoops, Billy, Billy, Billy. Has a certain cadence to it.

So among the current leadership of the Way lies the vast majority that have lived most of their lives or a significant portion of their lives in the small city ecosystem that exists around the Way International Headquarters at the Wierwille farm in New Knoxville Ohio. Far removed from the realities of life that most experience, such as a commute, a mortgage, a family (RFR), these leaders have developed in a vacuum environment. Like cultivating mushrooms, great care must be taken to keep foreign spores from invading your mushroom patch. This is the perfect environment for breeding a leader with zero empathy and compassion. Altruistic goals like "It Is Written" can still be portrayed loftily on walls around communes and on little geometrical carved pieces on clergies desks keeping them in tow while being functionally replaced with "It Is Position" being paramount. Chapter and verse can little by little be replaced with pithy quotes like published in "Lifelines" from leaders with lofty titles and puny hearts. Quotes can go on like "I remember meeting Rosalie once, and she told me this.....". The Research department can be replaced with a whited sepulchre Timothy statue and a re-worked BG Leonard class 3 times removed. And because snow on gaspumps - "we already have the truth we don't need more research". At any rate, not to shift gears too drastically in concept, recently I was listening to an old B-52's song called "My Own Private Idaho". It just struck me about some parallel lines of concept. So I thought I would post up the YouTube link and the lyrics and start up a discussion with y'alls. Peace. What do you think? Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo, hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo You're living in your own Private Idaho Living in your own Private Idaho Underground like a wild potato Don't go on the patio Beware of the pool Blue bottomless pool It leads you straight, right throught the gate That opens on the pool You're living in your own Private Idaho You're living in your own Private Idaho Keep off the path, beware of the gate Watch out for signs that say "hidden driveways" Don't let the chlorine in your eyes Blind you to the awful surprise That's been waitin' for you at The bottom of the bottomless blue, blue, blue pool You're livin' in your own Private Idaho, Idaho You're out of control, the rivers that roll You fell into the water and down to Idaho Get out of that state Get out of the state you're in You better beware You're living in your own Private Idaho You're living in your own Private Idaho Keep off the patio (your own private Idaho) Keep off the path (your own private Idaho) The lawn may be green but you better not be seen Walkin' through a gate that leads you down Down to a pool fraught with danger It's a pool full of strangers Hey, you're living in your own Private Idaho Where do I go from here to a better state than this? Well Don't be blind to the big surprise Swimming round and round like the deadly hand Of a radium clock At the bottom Of the pool I-I-I-daho I-I-I-daho Woah-oh, woah-oh, woah-oh, oh Ah, ah, ah, ah Ah, ah, ah, ah Get out of that state Get out of that state You're living in your own Private Idaho Livin' in your own Private Idaho Songwriters: CINDY WILSON, FRED SCHNEIDER, KATE PIERSON, KEITH STRICKLAND, RICKY WILSON © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC

To me this comes off as a logical and straightforward handling of scriptures without the need of a mental shoehorn and a lot of dance steps. Which makes it unfathomable to the Way. More specifically I see that people have an assumed major premise that there will be no duality in Christology, in scriptures, and they expect it not in life.

Hmmm. Like "Founders Hall"???? One cool apartment in the front for BellaDonna, and a whole lot of dormitory rooms, with a kitchen on the end and common areas. But they kept the trailer park. Bought double wides and call them "units". Wedge 2 families to a trailer.

Hey GoldStar, No worries. i was starting to look into verses covered in VPW's publication Jesus Christ is Not God. That was where my soliloquy was driving anyway LOL Thomas firsthand accounts with the resurrected Christ were the first stop. VPW in the book explains those as an orientalism meaning "my godly lord" all lower caps. I find him on shaky ground with that explanation, but maybe there is a better explanation. Any thoughts on those? I guess there are a lot of ways to discuss the trinity. I've been surprised at even common definitions of the term.

They've picked up the worst traits of their father - pandering to power.

Hi GoldStar, If you are going with a scriptural argument, you are missing the simplest and most compelling verse: I Tim. 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, However, the problem we run into is exactly what you quoted here: "Yes there are verses that seem to imply that Jesus is God, but those verses are either figures of speech or unclear." In going through the verses VP applies his scriptural shenanigans to in JCNG, you say that they are "either figures of speech or unclear". I would contest that VP used that type of statement and inadequate rhetoric altogether too often rather than treating verses honestly as they appear in context. Go through every apparent contradiction he explains away in JCNG, read it without a preconceived bias. The conclusion I have come to is that scriptures aren't a tricky little math puzzle that you can perfectly fit and solve everything in life with. There are no "apparent contradictions" there are "flat contradictions". On this particular topic no less. And VPW is not someone to emulate with respect to honest scholarship. For example, Thomas sticking his hand into the side of the resurrected Christ and saying "my Lord and God". Don't give me that weak sauce orientalism BS it is very clearly stated in context. Scriptures have inspired thought in my estimation. They also have man's thought. A blend of it. But you have people playing trickery. Like saying Kings is "man's view" and Chronicles is "God's view". Wait a second I thought all scripture is given by insipiration of God and is profitable for doctrine reproof correction? So Kings is "man's view" but interpreted by divine inspiration through God who is telling you man's view? Why? Why couldn't we just ask the man his view? We have a recent poster on here Mike who likes to claim all of Victor Paul Wierwille's writings are "God breathed" from that way too often quoted verse in the Way. He has a Balaam's @$$ kind of reasoning that the vessel for God's Word is flawed or something but that's not important. I disagree. I take my own life in point. Do I believe I have received revelation from God? Yes. Do I pray and function as a Christian? Yes. Does God continue to unfold things for me? Yes. But do I walk on a cloud where every directed step is from God's revelation? It simply doesn't work like that. What is God's revelation? Is it the sight of a bluebird in the crisp dawn focused and alive, showing God's intent for continued life? Is it a multi-colored sunrise? Is it a scripture that hits you a certain way during a multi-colored sunrise? Oh, but as the retired schoolteacher would say "there is no standard" - there needs to be uniformity, likemindedness, a standard. They would try and say revelation works in a "Stepford Wives" calculated manner. I would just tell them to consider the secular words of a Chliean film-maker: "Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness" Alejandro Jodorowsky

typo on Paul - I was thinking John but fingers typed Paul. Topically and sequentially, there actually were multiple revelations John recorded - I was describing them as a collection, not as the title of a book. This means that first word which I used in my sentence should not have been capitalized as the title of the book I included later accurately in the singular. That was my intent as the author of the sentence. Please tell me you have more to say about the substance of my posts other than being a grammar Nazi. Just sayin - couldn't resist LOL.

Stop children what's that sound everybody knows what's goin down.

I have no statistical levels of confidence. "A 95% condidence interval" LOL. In that one category of life - sexual indiscretions - of course nobody will never know everything about another. But if you combine the recent #MeToo movement with Billy's moral claims in that category I would just point out that Billy Graham wasn't going to be fired from his denomination for an affair with his secretary, and does not have multiple credible accounts of getting underage girls drunk and taking advantages of them on his record like Victor Paul Wierwille does. Actually, in spite of all Billy's corruption, which I would probably classify under pandering to politicians for personal or organizational advantage, unless you have something more for me, I would list the following things as known about Victor Paul Wierwille in the sexual predator category that absolutely have no parallel in Billy Graham s life and Christian example.: attended hippee gatherings to participate in free sex outside of marriage chronic adulterer - proven by story after story had a motor coach where supplied young and possibly underaged women with alcohol and had sex with them board of trustees would commonly pass women around for sexual use admitted and chronicled lawsuit accounts of not only adultery but quid pro quo sexual harassment, including people sleeping with VPW and LCM for political favor. So those are the known things about the Way and its leadership. I think I am pretty safe in drawing a contrast with how Billy Graham lived his life. Especially in these categories of not being a plagiarizing drunkard adulterer.

It's a valid point. People have their own "personal Jesus". It could turn them into a hypocrite rejecting their human Muslim brother who lives a more virtuous and moral life than they do and that God will reward justly at the Great White Throne judgment. Too many elitist Christians in this world looking down their nose at others, rejecting others, and living 100% selfishness. And like the Way, teaching doctrines of devils like "the household" taking the behavior of Christians back two millennium on progress towards being actual human beings with compassion towards their neighbors.

Raf from a straightforward unbiased reading that is not tainted by prior doctrine I fail to see how you could interpret, or take this any other way than you just explained it. I concur.

So the moral of your God-breathed VPW interpreted story is that if you pray for your children when they don't need it they may die?

I wonder if this is the case just for the same reason that Internet news sites like to put up articles that have lists in them. "The 10 things you can do to succeed at your job" or "The 5 warning signs your marriage is in trouble". "The 3 Gods you can turn to in times of trouble". All right - before I get blasphemy labeled here, what is the difference between that and the "7 Redemptive Names of God" - Jehovah - my car wash or whatever? Talk to the daddy, talk to the brother, talk to the spirit guy. Jesus carries the authority of God, so if I rap with him as opposed to the Father, am I not talking to the Father? What does dying on a hillside of separate identity gain you?