chockfull

Dude a married minister propositioned the girl next to you in class and you give him a pass? The error here is not in me saying she was molested. In my view a married man who is a clergyman should not be "moving the Word" with his penis in any capacity - propositioning members of the public taking his classes. This set the pattern for what later would become in the Way quid pro quo sexual harassment. The problem here is not in me "assuming the worst". And it's not in me being "insensitive" to an old pervy adulterer. The bad versus the worst is enough to discredit the man, and sufficiently make my point about the blind eye you have turned to it ever since the beginning. The only God breathed Word I see attached to Victor Paul Wierwille's life and actions consists of one letter. Scarlet in fact. A

"Stole material like a starving comedian with severe depression" ? hmmm. were those dysphemisms? we need more of those, and less of the other.

You know, all of this funkadelic discussion on plagiarism got me thinking about another common practice in the Way, that of using euphemisms. Like for example, Victor Paul Wierwille's research. Currently, the Way expresses Wierwille's blatant, widespread, and Machiavellian plagiarism as "he learned from many sources". This would be classified as a euphamism, as someone probably would be OK with taking a class from someone who has "learned from many sources". However, if you state the truth more plainly, not many would want to take a class from someone who "stole material like a starving robber jay at a campsite picnic table". So what experiences do you have from the Way with respect to "euphamisms"? eu·phe·mism [ˈyo͞ofəˌmizəm] NOUN a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.The opposite of dysphemism. "“downsizing” as a euphemism for cuts" synonyms: polite term · substitute · mild alternative · indirect term · understatement · underplaying · softening · politeness · genteelism · coy term

i remember coming to the realization that there was a ton more effort going into controlling a stupid Way mag article and even prolific greetings on phone hookups than there was in the poor copy transcription of a Sunday teaching that was printed up on his home press into a "collateral" to the PFAL class. And people were basing their lives off of that. Like for example the first chapter of the blue book, which everyone lauded to the sky. I had grown up reading Norman Vincent Peale's "The Power of Positive Thinking". This is an entire book developing further the concepts that the Vicster introduced in a measly few pages. And I saw plenty of crossover ideas there too. Peale was VP's contemporary. Sometimes, without brainwashing, you can actually see the poor quality of the original material that everyone worshipped for decades.

I also thank you for your contributions Bolsh. You have summarized the correct.

Mike is right. Sometimes there, right in the midst of reading through the details of his posts when you read them carefully, you come across a statement that just seems to out-shadow all the surrounding statements as to 'splaining things. That, along with his touching empathetic account of the Vicster sexually molesting propositioning someone in his first class and Mikey giving him a pass because the girl had problems too and didn't do anything to move the Word. For clarity sake, one does not "move the Word" with one's penis Mikey boy. See you in Doctrinal, joust master.

Sweet!

Hold on there, Don Quixote. WLIL, although a meandering tale to impress a young woman, is important not because of some VP canonized God breathed statement in it, but it gives all the detail regarding how VP came to plagiarize JE Stiles material after being helped out at an Oral Roberts event. This includes really verifiable BS like Vic's misogynistic mindset where he raised his opinion of JE Stiles when he spoke harshly to his wife. Nowhere else is Vic's tall tales of fictitious snow on gas pumps recorded, which has long since been compared against weather records and debunked. Nay young joust master, it is not a mere obscure book, it is a masterful tale of how a pervy old dude spins his own history to impress a young hippie chick. Every bit as God-breathed as the whiskey infused tales told young ladies around bars across the world on a weekend night. Carry on joust master.

Do I think the overall culture of "don't tell anyone about it because they aren't spiritually mature enough to handle those kinds of truths" is still going on? Yes I absolutely think that culture still exists. It is a culture of lying to followers, whitewashing the past, even more recently just not saying anything at all about people once they scr3w them over. Hiding information they think their followers shouldn't know. An inauthentic lack of transparency. With that kind of an overall culture going on, for me it really is hard to specifically say what particular abuses are currently going on - or at what levels. It's like the RC church and the coverup - with a coverup culture, how widespread is the problem? Hard to say. So is all that sex stuff still going on? Well at the Prez level there's a little ole white haired lady in her mid to late 70s - most likely she is well past the time where sex is on her mind anymore or whatever. When it was more of interest she was known to be a swinger participating in the clubs, then used her relationship (romantic) with LCM's wife to oust him and take over later after the scandals with LCM came out. I also think there are plenty of zealots currently in the organization who would continue to do extreme things if they felt it would advance their positions or interests. In general, though, I doubt the same kind of antics that way are going on currently that happened under the motorcoach and free agenda era. Just mental manipulation and control.

Familiar with 2 items. 1. 1972 - WLIL - VP's degree was in homiletics - a good talker - a good con man. I'll tell you what he "put together" backed by his millionaire furniture maker brother Harry. He put together the purchase of a physical printing press so that the Way could literally print their own books under the title "American Christian Press". Why this approach? #1 - $$$$$$ #2 - all those pesky questions normal publishers ask about the originality of your material. In other words, they could make tons of money on not only selling "lifted and improved" say class materials but without facing the normal scrutiny that a standard publishing cycle would impose. He also was telling his story to a young impressionable girl (Elena Whiteside) - of which he was known to tell stories to take sexual advantage of. The Way has not sold WLIL in their bookstore since the '80's right? Will this help you be less delusional? No. You're going to look at it like the Christline for the God-breathed Moroni inspired PLAF tablets. 2. 1965 SNS tape - "went from source to source" - look - some obscure tape which only you have access to honestly sounds like you are just making up more excuses to think you are the "God entrusted bearer of the PLAF". What I am familiar with is how when VP couldn't convince people to stand with him, he started the Spiritual 40 club. What this was I believe (haven't yet looked up exact passage in Mrs W's book) was a bunch of people making a "commitment to stand with him" - i.e. financial $$$ commitment to fund bringing in all those ministers and Biblical people that appear not in bibliographies anywhere but as pictures on the wall of the Founders room in the auditorium to this day. Oh, on a more basic level - we actually see where VP went "from source to source". JE Stiles book was one source. It became the source of RHST published by American Christian Press, authored by VPW solely, no other attribution. If you would have to calculate or pinpoint the source of the Way's current $65 M - what percentage of that do you think you could track back to direct sales of RHST? I wonder..... I also wonder if JE Stiles has any grandchildren that should morally have their college funded by sales of their grandpa's material. If anyone knows them, they should recommend a good lawyer. What thoughts do you have about those 2 items?

Hey spotters. Cool stuff. The black hole / white dwarf stuff may seem like it is on the outskirts of imagination, but just reading through this thread it is pretty powerful. I really never thought about the gravitational pull of a narcissist that much before, but it is very real. Many of your top leaders in business are this way - reportedly Steve Jobs from Apple and Larry Ellison from Oracle are two more modern or recently modern examples. You really would have to categorize all Way Presidents in this fashion also. Groomed and bred with a low concern for others welfare and a high concern for the importance of their own position, they were raised to exploit. I think it is really interesting to consider the gravitational pull of a black hole on personal relationships too, like TBone talking about spousal relationships. Definitely friendships too. DWBH - I also never fully appreciated the implications of the Way Tree having its origins in AA. If you think about it, that kind of sums up the outreach efforts and strategy for the Way - the Way tree teachings and the Vision and Direction document that surrounds it. That is all based in AA - helping recovering alcoholics. Keeping people in a disease for life, producing works to show deliverance, meeting attendance required, managed, monitored. The Lord Jesus Christ is once again, remarkably absent. So many angles of realistic evaluation and comparison for our past experiences. And to me all of it is another positive mental construct to remove the subtle anti Christ influences of the Way out of my mind.

I think waysider has touched upon the real underlying problem with plagiarism. It allows someone who has a middle school grasp of a topic to produce a book that shows himself to be an authority on the topic. The lack of effort in the middle to make a subject one's own, to master it. That is what is missing from VP's life. He always took the shortcut in that area. Whether it was checking into a motel by himself for 10 days eating only grapes while he "had all over 350 verses on holy spirit" in his mind, he did a great impression of what the Catholic scribes must have done before the printing press to get a copy of the scriptures. The only elbow grease VP put into the holy spirit field was the effort he put in that motel transcribing copy. So like most topics, VP may have had an outline, but he didn't master the subject. J.E. Stiles did master the topic. You know how I know? Because it was he who actually had the ability, once VP was doing his antics on stage for the Oral Roberts evangelism tent meeting to sort all that out and get VP to the point where he himself was convinced about what he was doing in his private prayer life. No, VP plagiarized, lifted, swindled, stole, the vast majority of all of his works. The better written works, JCPS and JCOP - coming up on Easter now - were not researched or written by VP at all. For a relatively short period of time in the Way's history, during the time VP published those books with his name solely on the cover, VP employed several people in a research department who did that work for him. He mostly ruined their lives. Actually if you would like a good read, Mike, I would suggest picking up a copy of the book "Undertow" which speaks of that - written by spotter penworks - Charlene Edge, an author who posts here. This gives a firsthand account of Way research at the source. No, VP was one who showed the character of sliding through life on others accomplishments, all while projecting himself as the hardest working German farmer around. Others research, brothers money, correspondence course doctoral degree, young women's beauty and sexual attraction, you name it and Vic was a user and exploited it. The conversation that is going on now seems to be one debating the topic of who actually owns the copyright to the equivalent of the angel Moroni's transcribed tablets. Vic wasn't even imaginative enough to come up with a skeptical story like that. He even had to have his conspiracy theories piped into him from some other source.

Wow - 65k - that's like more than they pay teachers in most places. So home boy is sitting around watching soaps and collecting a principal's salary. What a waste of human life and air space. That probably kicked in so he didn't have to work at UPS during the Christmas season and tell tall stories that could get around. How is this justified? Well, #1 because lawyers, now no Way follower can request a financial copy. So keep the populace in the dark. Step #1. Have investment income from your pillaged $65M - so you can lie to Wayfers and say their ABS doesn't pay for a trust fund lifestyle for the Naked Cowboy of Cabin 12. I think on the next Way Productions Showcase, they should include a sketch entitled "What Craig Does With His Time But Not Your Money".... LOL.

If it helps, I have gone to a therapist and done psychotherapy sessions regarding the cult. My therapist was cool. Ex Catholic priest, had done that for 25 yrs, then decided to get married and quit, raised a family, then when his 2 boys moved out his wife developed a relationship with another woman and divorced him. So he used his education in Catholic divinity and pursued a doctorate degree in psychology and counseling specialties. Cool dude. Cognitive behaviorist. It did help me put things in perspective. And I actually learned a lot too. It helped me gain self confidence and to see that they are the ones with the problem not me. They try to put that monkey on everyone's back with their Pharisee behavior. One interesting thing I saw from his teaching was that the changes introduced, especially to the Way Corps, were not from zero to way extreme, they were always incremental, kind of like boiling a frog from cold water. So I think I gained a better self image out of it overall anyway. Do you need it? Who knows. Everybody's recovery is unique and their own. And as everyone around here can evidence, I'm certainly not fixed yet. LOL

“It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.” That's from Charles Dickens "A Tale of Two Cities". Welcome to the 'Spot. Pull up a chair and chat a while. I'm sorry about your childhood - being a child in the Way was a particular kind of hell.

WOW. This Machiavellian power play speaks volumes as to the standard set for top leaders that Victor Paul Wierwille showed by example in the Way. All 3 succeeding presidents after him have studied these acts and performed similar acts of their own. In this act VP was dishonest - lying in front of a group of his followers - lying about something one of his greatest supporters to date had said privately, removing him from any power and influence (which he had actually cultivated himself - that was not VP's crop there) through lying. Cutting off access to "the household", Steve was effectively "put on probation" right there and set up to be shunned with control of the followup messaging. The hippie element was "systematically removed". Wow. From 1972 on. VPW retired in 1981, right? So who exactly was it that spearheaded the "systematic removal of the hippies"? Ding ding ding - yes that would be old shyster VP himself. Mike you having been physically present there is a wealth of information about the early functioning of VPW you possess. You don't even know it yourself because you are kind of walking around in a haze where a man who was behaving like that even in your direct presence you explain away in your brain because somehow you believe God performed automatic writing through VPW in producing his plagiarized classes. A strong-arm tactic, Mike? Involving lying? Where do you see Jesus behaving in this fashion?

Jonah's ?????????????????????????????? LOL

Well, that would mean it actually has to be funny. I feel we have failed to clear the bar for that standard. LOL Cheers Twinky.

All that would prove is that we are closer than we thought to the Turing test than we thought. And that Elon Musk isn't as paranoid as we thought. And, if it was just a week, I might not even notice depending on the timing. You see, I have absolutely no obligation to correct people who are wrong on the internet. Even AI bots. ;) LOL

On the Trinity topic, one way I have come to view this as Victor Paul Wierwille in "The Ingenious Nobleman Sir Quixote of La Mancha" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote The ingenious nobleman was so immersed in his own struggle his name became forever enthroned within an "ism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quixotism Quixotism (/kwɪkˈsɒtɪzəm/ or /kiːˈhoʊtɪzəm/) (adj. quixotic) is impracticality in pursuit of ideals, especially those ideals manifested by rash, lofty and romantic ideas or extravagantly chivalrous action.[1] It also serves to describe an idealism without regard to practicality. An impulsive person or act might be regarded as quixotic. Quixotism is usually related to "over-idealism", meaning an idealism that doesn't take consequence or absurdity into account. It is also related to naïve romanticism and to utopianism. ----------------------------------- The real problem was people taking the plagiarized classes, then going back to their churches and not becoming a part of the Way in commitment and finance. VPW needed to find some way to pry people from their denominations. It was not good enough they were a functioning parallel member in the body of Christ. No, he had to teach about an exclusive term known as the "household", where other Christians are just a little bit sub-par at best. Between that and the Trinity, Victor Paul Wierwille could easily cast doubt upon teachings centuries old that had ideological basis in scripture but not actual terminology in scripture. I mean there are a lot of other monk-chanting like stupid statements in the Apostles Creed, so why focus on the one? And why is Augustine the only d@mn Pope in history Wayfers actually know the name of? It is like the extent of Wayfers knowledge is a two paragraph historical summary in Jesus Christ Is Not God which they cling doggedly to like a shipwreck piece throughout even post Way life. No I think the rejection of the Trinity with vehemence is evidence of our brainwashing. Not rejection of it alone - I don't believe in the doctrine of the trinity. But us taking up the spears and going after the same windmills is going to leave us perpetually shipwrecked.

It's really good, and provides an important piece of HIStory regarding Biblical research and its practices in the Way International especially in its formative years. This research is the "truth" that the modern Way is based upon. They have abandoned further pursuit of ongoing Biblical research and resolved themselves doggedly to the materials founded upon what you read about in this book. I think it is better and more accurate than the HIStory they used to sell in the Way "The Way Living in Love" by Elena Whiteside. That book presents the only recorded folklore behind the snow on the gas pumps story which is the reason why they don't research any more. Coincidentally, similar thinking to the Mormons. With automatic writing from the angel Moroni, who needs research? Anyways, although Charlene and Elena were both hippie children in the same era, Charlene was much more practically grounded and worked in the research department. She's funny too and sounds logical not like a flower child. Those are my impressions reading both works. Mrs. VPW's account stops short of the timeline presented in both of these works. 5 stars. Highly recommended.

Really cool. Interesting stuff. Nobody sees these men in the Bible as wrestling with their own angels, so to speak. Some of my view of Paul is that God gave him some really wild pictures to cope with his inner demons. I'm sure his daily mental process looked a whole lot more like wrestling with an angel than the norm. Perhaps also that is the reason for a greater recorded meditative discipline (i.e. SIT more than you all - rather than focus on the one side of that, what about the prayer/time/outlook side of that). I don't know. But it inspires some cool thoughts.

Hey Taxidev, Thanks for sharing. Your post kind of brought up a rhetorical question to me internally. "Can truth exist in an enclosed vacuum outside of external influence?" The Way is an enclosed system that functions top-down originating from one person. (e.g. Rupp sharing "I'm not a yes man. I'm a yes ma'am"). Other trained up Pharisees will continue on in the same fashion - scriptures guarantee it. So as an enclosed system, how is the Way any different than the surrounding Amish in the local community around the Indiana campus they bought from the Catholics ? The campus was a "Sisters of the Healing Waters" retreat or something previously. Like going down the road and seeing a horse drawn buggy and a carriage, perhaps the simpler non-thinking life is more appealing to some. All of this modern stuff is too much, too overwhelming. Let's seperate to simplify, and enclose ourselves. Instead of an elected leader, one will assume power by coup. Then rule like a dictator. Wow. Sounds like a novel I read in high school called "Lord of the Flies". That is what selfish humans revert to by course and by "old man" nature. Now RFR will deny this enclosed system up and down as one of her besties is one attorney named Columbo who kept her lilly white behind off the witness stand through most of the lawsuits. She listens to him more than scripture, hence her dogged rejection of any modifications of the debt policy. Is that an enclosed system? Well, you kind of get an essence of that in Melody Carter's long diatribe - RFR appoints and removes BOD members exclusively. Legally they have an odd number for voting, but basically RFR dominates and has for years - ref Rupp quote. JY de Lisle is a more normal family man who has been raised under her tutelage longer than any other high level leadership member. Little to no field experience, so his entire reality was crafted at the little white cult city of Utopia in po-dunc Ohio surrounded by a community locally that hates them. As scriptures predict, the next generation of Pharisee will be 3x as bad. Joel Olsteen is a bit cheesy but he's cool in some ways. In others he is all "prosperity gospel", like so many in our generation. Those are of the sort Jesus would probably be seen kicking over their moneychanger tables outside the temple if he was around. But part of the body of Christ and endeavoring to teach and build. Sometimes local Klingons to the shipwreck can be quite friendly. And teach scriptures. It's all good. I am of the persuasion more according to that small story "Acres of Diamonds". I believe God will open up to the seeking Christian great avenues for connecting to the body of Christ within the direct area they live. And actually one good way to see things clearly is to follow the money. Or actually in some cases look for the ego, as I think there are a fair number of shipwreck leaders that have their own money - that is no reason to pay them heed. The body of Christ is much much greater than our limited view in the Way. The body of Christ is not an enclosed system with power residing with any one human being living on earth. We don't have to cling to shipwreck pieces of wood and be afraid of drowning waiting for someone to come by and rescue us. We are strong. We are swimmers.

Love it. Excellent content Rocky. This is the true essence of Revival and Restoration, if that group wants to get real about it. Not sitting in a house on a prairie by yourselves isolating from society standing stubbornly going on teaching truths that originated from a narcissistic plagiarist. Grow up. You've got your own younger generation watching you.

I just downloaded it too spectrum49. It looks like a good deal of effort into it. I am going to read through it over some time.