chockfull

I'm glad I "turned the page" on the cult that initiated this type of reeediculousness.

From my perspective they have done and said nothing that suggests they are in it for ANYTHING OTHER THAN the power, glory, or money. Their past history is an indicator of what they will do unchecked Their modus operandi is the same as the Way - i.e. phone hookups, teachings, titles, caste system within their "household" Response to our inquiries show a condescending dismissive response setting themselves up in equality to Paul of Tarsus No "One Body One Lord" Christian mentality - are not working with, reaching out to, integrating with mainstream Christianity in any sense. Instead of considering past as dung, there is pride in "how much Word they know" and positions, consider it as a resume entitling themselves All they have to offer positively now is one more blowhard with a phone hookup (i.e. AT&T pre-breakup technology approach). Within their group they "apologize to any they've hurt". Unfortunately those whose lives they deleteriously affected are not among those present in their group, as those people will have nothing to do with them. They won't say it anywhere publicly for the same reason the Way won't. Probability of exposure to victim lawsuit. They send people out "witnessing" to bring people to them, not they go out witnessing to bring people to Christ. There is a group that decides on weekly teachings. Right now they are making a display to not micromanage anyone as that is what they b1tched about Rosie. They are "displaying a better option" to potential followers. But it's still a core group that decides about the teachings. Not a democracy like they were propounding to reform the Way. Their major premise and approach was and is to draw people away from the Way. Their "demands" letter to the Board of Directors of the Way was an ultimatum. That's even stronger than Martin Luther's approach nailing a list of unaddressed issues to the church door. Their outward show, however was one of humility. "Let's do the Word in confronting those BOD". Their issues, however, were not Word oriented. Where in the Word does it say how long someone serves in a position? Or when retirement is? They have initiated a "coup" a takeover, a drawing away. Because of their good words and fair speeches many "twigs" are enamored by them and can just switch allegiance from the Way to the RNR railroad. This is a passive setup for taking over later. Their efforts and approach are very similar to the initiatives of Clapp and Shroyer starting CFF. I am far past the point where someone can show me their teeth smiling, shake my hand, be amiable, and cause me to trust their character. Can a leopard change his spots? Can a zebra change his stripes?

So it's kind of like Dana Carvey's routine on "organized religion"??? la la la ..... disorganized.....

sky I agree. That one incident you pointed out of hard-hearted counsel was not an isolated one, but rather the way he operates and has his whole Way tenure as a clergyman. Do you know why the Sadducees were so sad? They couldn't become top Pharisees.

it seems to me that it is as easy as starting a LLC online to set up a 501c these days. LegalZoom will do it for $99. Probably the only legal sticking point they might violate is that funds can't inure to any personal entity. But they get around it by calling it a salary. One more donation page hanging out on the internet somewhere probably isn't worth the effort.

I'm glad for the one body teaching. I'm not optimistic about their long-term prospects of integrating in with other Christians. My recommendation would be for those top guys to go back to school for a couple years then start a church plant with someone they meet there. That would ensure that there is a healthy balance in a positive direction. I seriously doubt that their egos will permit this though. Instead of counting their years in a cult as dung like Paul did, they count it as their resume, unwilling to start at the bottom somewhere else. IMO these are those who seek their own belly as referred to in scripture. I read about a pastor of a large church a number of years ago that got caught doing ecstasy with a male prostitute. He got kicked out of his position with a 6 figure payout, took a year off with the golden parachute to rehabilitate, his wife wrote a book and published it called "Why I Stayed". Then they started another church. He's back in action as a head pastor going right back at it. I think these are the types of people that are going to star in a new season of "Naked and Afraid" the TV series when Jesus Christ comes back

Sounds marginally better than the Way. If I was leaving the Way right now and had to choose where to go, this would be better than a Way fellowship. I guess when you're just leaving you're in that vulnerable spot again where you don't trust anyone or anything to do with religion, God, church, whatever that people are trying to sell you. You've been indoctrinated against mainstream Christianity with all of VP's teachings on how all denominations were run by seed men. So at first it's really hard to fit in with a church family, especially one who has been "believing the trinity" for decades. So in that state, this probably would be among your best options. Plus, there's all the "prosperity gospel" BS to deal with in mainstream Christianity, as well as other politics, etc. Even all the worship services have changed dramatically to a more modern format. You don't know any of the songs to sing because the only ones you know were out of "Sing Along the Way" for decades. The greeters with coffee and donuts seem like aliens. But to me here is the rub with mainstream Christianity. Whatever else is controversial in the Bible, the teaching on Jesus as head of the body in Corinthians is not. So if Jesus is head of the body, not Rosalie, or Jean Yves, or some combination of Moynihan plus Horney, then the church I am attending may be located down the arm, or the leg, or whatever. But it certainly isn't the whole body. But with cults you have the Moynihans the Horneys, the Rosalies and the Jean Yves all acting as if they were the head of the body. Or in this state Moynihan and Horney are too confused to fall into that role, but over time it will migrate that way. Look at every other splinter. Look at Christian Family Fellowship for a model of how this works. This is the model of how to become an antichrist. This is wrong. If Paul teaches that my Lord and Savior's followers will function like a human body interacting, then that is what I will look for in his followers. Not antichrists. Then , when you run across a perspective like the local New Knoxville pastor (who wrote a quote about Undertow - penworks book) who speaks of building a local community where people can find healing not needing an "anointed man of God" you know he has the proper perspective.

Nice summation. The RnR Railroad. For sure. Same train, same rails, different vision. LOL. "The only thing we learn from history is that mankind learns nothing from history" Stephen R Donaldson

Hey TLC. I have no idea. I was just quoting a Philippians verse that seemed appropriate to the moment. I guess that salvation word also means wholeness. So not just being saved but the rest of the deal through life. I sort through all that with the Father. I guess it doesn't seem as effective with an attitude of disrespect and irreverence. That aspect probably wasn't any different with Israel. .

It's all good - we all work out our own salvation by obeying God with respect and reverence. Phil. 2:12 I looked at some of the pictures of the 75th anniversary with people who used to be my friends. I was never more thankful to not have any attachments to any of them. I can work out my own salvation without worrying about TWIS, democratic BOD elections, fair assignments, or staying in the BOD's "good graces". F them. They are a bunch of incompetent idiots anyway, giving their whole lives to preserve Ralph Waldo Emerson's "foolish consistency".

A lot of this behavior reminds me of the "Cargo Cults" that sprung up among the Pacific Islanders in WWII. http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/cargocult.htm They have a spiritual story as to why goods were airdropped on the islands during WWII. If they just keep repeating their behavior, maybe the airdrops will return. Their savior's name is John Fromm.

Beautiful letter by a local New Knoxville pastor. I'm going to quote part of it: "Anyway, let me assure you that there are some ex-Way members who have left and found other church homes in this community. Some are members with me in the ministry of NKUMC. Some of them were with the Way in the 70s and 80s. May the Lord continue to provide to you the healing that only He can deliver. He has obviously already begun this work, and my guess is that He did it without the exclusive help of an “anointed” clergy guy! Have a great weekend! Dennis Gaertner, Pastor" --------------------------------------- To me the distinction between how Dennis works and how the Way AND R&R work is Dennis is perfectly comfortable letting Jesus Christ be the head of the body and work in that capacity to heal. To the Board of Pharisees of the Way, and the elitist excommunicated from the R&R group, they don't think this way. To them, deliverance comes not through the work of Jesus Christ as head of the body and to work His capacity to heal, it comes through your behind in a chair listening to them "teach the Word". It comes through their manipulation and control, where they want to take advantage of the simple. It comes through "working a plan" that the head Pharisees came up with a decade ago. Antichrists all. Putting themselves above their savior. Maybe some Way Staff members should go hang out a NKUMC and make some friends. They will be the only ones they have once they are shunned by the Way. Thx for sharing penworks.

How is this not another Way splinter? Are they working with, or outside of the Christian body around the local areas where they live? The last I looked their website was still protected by a password. And they keep in touch by "an app"????? Is the name of the app secret too? IMO it really has nothing to do with Ed or Jacque H0rney b1tching me out in the past 30 years ago or anything similar. Although I interacted with most of the leadership I have not spoken directly with them in many years. It's not that they can't change. It's that there is zero evidence of them evidencing any fruit of change. The first chapter of I John pretty much sums up what is going on there. They refuse to dialog with anyone regarding their past, certainly haven't come here and apologize for any they've wronged, and there have been many egregious wrongs. Their response to us questioning them about past corruption and what they are doing to change it is either "Hi Ralph" or some other such one sentence nonsense talking about whether or not Paul worried about things 30 years old. They are moving ahead in exactly the same fashion that they did when they were in the Way. They just got kicked out of the Way. And they still don't change. A group of elites teaching and being in charge and not even answering the questions of the peons that a year ago they were trying to drum up support to have other Coirpse sign their stupid letter. They still have the same nose-in-the-air elitist attitude that they have had for the past 30 plus years. I can smell it from third hand accounts of their responses. I don't even need to talk to them. Go back and read their soliloquy about how the Corpse needs to be run by a democracy. Then look at how they are running their splinter. Not by a democracy. You are drawing a parallel with your life "going back to stealing bikes and selling drugs". What you don't see is this group of splinter Pharisees never left their supposed Christian lifestyle of "stealing bikes and selling drugs". Oh, except they were enjoying a secret swingers club that nobody else could know about or participate in. After they were born again, ran fellowships, witnessed to people, ran classes, went in the Way Corpse, were leaders, were ordained. This is not a genuine movement of God. And if there is some good-hearted honest person in the midst of that cr@pola, then they are getting fooled. Just like I got fooled by VPW, LCM, RFR not seeing their true colors until much much later. Nobody is condemning you to living a life as a drug dealer. But we're not saying you should start a YouTube channel, file a 501c, and splinter off of Jesus body one more time either. Behind locked doors because you're afraid of criticism. Cult logic leaves you boxed in between two choices neither of which involves God.

"attitude of heart". Sounds like a bunch of crap for one person to judge another. attitude of heart vs. attitude of mind. error of heart vs. error of judgment. one more way to establish a breeding ground for Pharisees, and have people set themselves as their intermediaries between you and God and leave Jesus Christ out. No amount of my sin can render His blood insignificant or inadequate to recompense. Thanks for summarizing the 114 pages Taxidev. I don't have the connections to see it myself. God is just and can sort out the next heaven and earth including rewards and lack of them to satisfy all. But i'm sure another shipwreck splinter of faith from Jesus ship floating around is exactly what we need to sort this out and get to the bottom of it LOL Jesus foretold of this IMO with some of his comments about millstones and talking about people saying "Lord, Lord" and the response being "I never knew you". I recall coming across a denominational split in the Presbyterian church over what happened to young children who had not yet had the chance to be saved.

Wow - if I am to understand this correctly, here is some background information to what LCM experienced and taught others too during his "VP and Me" gag inducing teachings. So dictor tries to accost a young woman on coffee crew, invites her up to the motor coach, then gets rebuffed. After this he teaches the top Way leadership that they need to "loosen up" in the sexual category and specifically references the victim who rebuffed him. To be quite clear, what dictor meant by "loosen up" was adultery and sexual assault, sometimes drugged. In modern terms, a white Fundamentalist Bill Cosby.

The main point of this thread is that Gutenberg made it available and cheap to get into the publishing business. He apparently took advantage of that. Likewise, these Way splinter groups, the latest of which is the R&R resist questions and do what you've always done by yourself ministry, are taking advantage of free resources in our society on YouTube to build a "ministry" or fake 501c that has a select few elites and a video camera. Because that's all it takes to grab a splinter and jump off the faith boat. And the Way Int. is not the faith boat. Jesus Christ is.

I like physical books too especially on airplanes. This way pesky stewardesses don't watch when I am reading or not over my shoulder. The paperback exchange program at airports is cool.

yes it is a slow transition. much of it will be decided just by the amount of space it takes up to store multiple books. probably over the next 50 years.

Hi 'Spotters. Recently we were discussing Gutenberg on a different thread, as he was at least one of the inventor's of the printing press, which is widely known to be responsible for literacy among the common people during the Renaissance period. This article came up: http://theweek.com/articles/454295/johannes-gutenberg-15thcentury-con-man Which actually talks about some of the less than above-the-board tactics of Gutenberg while he was innovating. If you control what people read you control what they think. In modern society however, the printed word is rapidly becoming obsolete, in favor of Kindle (kind of printed word), wikipedia, web content, and now even more recently we have the further degradation of the attention span where people can't even read for an hour non-stop, So what is the substitute learning method for our society today? YouTube, Facebook Live, Snapchat, Instagram Libraries are obsolete, the only thing happening there in modern society is homeless people having a place to stay during the day and other people checking out music CD's to duplicate. Libraries are no longer the learning centers of our society. What is? YouTube channels. So available. So free. All it takes is any modern phone that usually easily can reverse into "selfie" mode, and an upload button. Geez we don't even have to purchase printing presses any more to control the populace. All you need to start a ministry today is a 501c application and a YouTube channel. I think today spirituality is people less focused than ever before, more distracted, and with their own personal "YouTube minister". So all of you former Way International big shots, don't fret. Even when you get kicked out via Machiavellian tactics over some meaningless nonsense, all is not lost. You too can continue to control what people think, flip the script, not cave in to the tactics. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance (although how someone could misconstrue that into a caste system with bestowed and retained titles by man is mind boggling). So see, you too can become a YouTube Evangelist Called of God, these men and women face tremendous odds. A lifetime of Christian service? A million year contract to clear the planet? Psssshaaaaawwwwwwwwww!!!!!!! These YouTube evangelists must face much more. They have to: Look presentable (with a casual option if that's too hard) Set up a tripod that can hold their iPhone Sound condescending Invent some other elaborate scheme to interpret a 2000 year old tome that nobody else has thought of. Do it week after week without boring themselves to death. No small accomplishment. So let's hear it for all the YouTube evangelists out there. They need love. They need attention. They need discussion.

No doubt. However, unlike stealing the tires off of a race car for resale value, which would be difficult to unload as you are jovially pointing out, stolen intellectual property along with purchasing a printing press allowed dictor to make Millions and mentally enslave tens of thousands with cult control tactics..

Visual depiction of the dictor's trip to Canada to visit BG Leonard.

So to bump up this topic on "Plagiarism on the Road to Success", one thing I wanted to bring up was American Christian Press Dic and brother Hairy bought a printing press and got it going to put out material under the title of American Christian Press. if you think about it, this is pretty strong evidence of intent to plagiarize and distribute plagiarized material. Both had the idea that if you control what people read, then you control people. All of the plagiarized works were published under this title. Using their own publishing company actually is the second bit of evidence in intent to plagiarize. This way no external literary or theological reviewers would be looking at any of dictor's work. Everything would be brought through a pseudo publishing process all with the final word belonging to the dictor. You can see similar patterns in the development of Scientology and the publishing of L. Ron Hubbard's insane works as materials required for every scientologist.

Great information here. I was just reflecting on EW Bullinger as one of VP's most prolific source of plagiarized material. He lived December 15, 1837 – June 6, 1913 Bullinger died in 1913, meaning any plagiarism claims would have to be made by his descendants, making this highly unlikely. Also Juanita Carey, a Way person, published a biography on Bullinger. What better way to control the dialogue about his life? There was certain to be included information on the "Trinitarian Bible Society" that Bullinger was a part of most of his life so that Dic could illustrate how Bullinger "would have got to the Word he got to" if he had lived or some such nonsense. A relatively unknown Biblical scholar, a century earlier, with published works where copyright is in the public domain, not pursued by anyone. Just another ripe source for cherry picking material to cobble together a "Biblical research ministry". Truth is certainly stranger than snow-covered gas pump fiction.

Lately I just have been getting my advice from Matisyahu

Yes!