chockfull

What nuances of "salvation" verses "rescue" do we have going on scripturally, doctrinally, etc? Are they the same? Similar?

The real fathers in our lives are so much bigger than the fake "Father in da Word" crapola that the vicster was supposed to be. And sky you are a real father too. Real > Fake

Without my former "fundy" sunglasses on, my read of Ephesians 3 is Paul writing a letter to some Gentiles talking about his love for them and how he felt God wanted him to work with them specifically despite his more traditional background. Ephesians is a cool letter - full of love and positives. Power words and images.

Wierwille as the common denominator was the walking contradiction IMO. With this word and idea, "dispensational" I think it also merits a close definition. I don't think it is an "all or nothing" concept, like Wierwille tried to dramatize many aspects of doctrinal Christianity to create a mental separation in the minds of his little cult followers. If the common currency is livestock, then offerings in livestock are common sense. That is a "dispensational approach to scripture". However, the paper that Rico wrote at RFR's behest as a document in positional support of their debt policy, which concluded that certain truths like debt and tithing transcend dispensations, but others don't, that is not a "dispensational approach to scripture", it is a "dishonest approach to scripture".

In Romans chapter 10, it seems that the importance of right living, repentance, and obedience aren't stressed so much, but the recognition of a personal Lord and a belief God raised Him from the dead. The Tanakh and new covenant writings which you are more familiar with than myself seem to have a healthy balance of current action and future anticipation from your descriptions which I'm sure are true. All good. Salvation - as a definition - deliverance from present and future: 1. Judgement 2. Hostile Forces 3. Sin For #1 = deliverance from judgement - for the future - this is a common view of when God comes down in judgement and makes everything right and kicks @$$ and takes names I will be saved from all of that experience on the negative side. I guess I can watch through a glass or something? As far as deliverance from present judgement, please help me out with that one, because I'm not seeing it anywhere. God isn't judging me now? OK. He's not judging the Satanist up the street either. But you know who still does judge me? People. And about at every step of life too. Legal system. Job. Culture. Hobbies. Friendship. Dating. I can go on and on. And you know who are probably worse at judging people than other groups? Christians. #2 Hostile Forces - Future perceived ones, sure. Present day ones still come at a person. #3 Sin - now here's an interesting one with respect to salvation. Saved from sin. So you mean once I'm a Christian I'm saved from sinning in my life? No. How about sinful habits? No, on you. Saved from the consequences of sin, which are death? OK, scriptural there - that's the idea. But the consequences of what sin? Get born again today, live like the devil for 50 years, get out of jail free, millions still smoking? Be a drunken lecher causing pain, sorrow, anguish, the breakup of families and marriages, and suicide? Saved from consequences of sin being eternal death? Who goes through that? Satan only? Many many many questions that glossed over definitions IMO don't come close to addressing. Daniel 12 as a section of scripture is noted and marked on this thread w/r to salvation topic. Thanks for the conversation, spotters.

Interesting and I don't think you are far off with the definitions here mainstream wise. So weighing this against the salvation topic, we have God saving us from: 1. My enemies 2. Physical Sickness and/or death So for #1, what enemies do I have in a modern society? Politics? Neighbor disputes? Frenemies? Don't see too much protection evidenced there. If the idea is interlaced in scripture that a strong army and victory over military enemies is part of this, then we get even more interesting with Christians in both the US and Russia. Whose side is God on? Putin's or Trump's? How would you categorize a wolf in sheep's clothing? Enemy? Why is it I seem to experience more than my ample share of all of the things I am supposed to be "saved" from? On #2 there is no tangible evidence that Christians experience sickness and death at any less rate than the surrounding populace. Do you get sick less? So in discussing "salvation" as the common topic around with which we are arguing whether or not we need a lifetime of compliance to achieve, is there nothing more than an "avoid the fire and brimstone" motivation on that side? Well, I guess the Christians would talk about "rewards". But isn't that something usually categorized as completely separate from salvation? So come on, now. If you want to sell me salvation, can't you at least paint a pretty picture about choirs of angels and living with Jesus and not being groped in security traveling through the air? Otherwise, what motivation do I have for a lifetime of compliance with fear of losing it?

i'm not sure I can tell what was scrubbed. I read through the page. IMO who cares. 82 footnote references for a wikipedia page LOL. And the scrubbing seems to remove sentences. Whatever. They stink to high heaven no matter how many words you remove, and their wikipedia page is about as relevant to modern day Christianity as they are with their Westboro Baptist hate attitude, convoluted weird doctrines, and totalitarian heavy-handed rule of their followers, just like all the documentaries on TV document that cults do.

yah I'm looking at it. Jalvis may possibly have some logic but you just can't get past the guy's obvious worship of himself and his own thoughts. I swear it is just so tedious to work through this BS. Self-promotion interlaced all the way through, with the beginning section dedicated to establishing his credentials and credibility. "I'm the most original OG of the fired OG's in '87 from the Way". At the end pitching his over 50 hours of Youtube teachings, along with 3 linked specific teachings. Multiple times he talks about how he doesn't have the time to dissect Dan's paper, then proceeds to quote a dozen verses and teach anyway. Incongruent, inauthentic. His sidekick for whatever ministry he is currently bilking followers out of money with his "coffee can" Jon T0uchstone came on here and tried to dialog, then bailed pretty quickly. His main point is that speaking in tongues is proof that you're born again. Jesus taught that you know people by their fruit. As a further explanation on that topic, here on GSC we had quite the long discussion and investigation into factual evidence that exists in the world today regarding speaking in tongues, and how it is commonly counterfeited. I'll search for the links if any are interested. Actually if you want a summary of this 13-page self-promotional document, I think I can give it to you in a 19 second YouTube video and spare you the agony of watching any more of Jallyroll's teaching videos.

Checking him out - http://sethorionschwaiger.com - this guy is seriously talented. Look at all the concept work pieces he has going on.

This is absolutely no different than how native tribes come up with folklore. Manually filling in the detail through imagination where only the sketch of an outline truly exists.

WordWolf, IMO this makes more logical sense than trying to bend your mind around God dealing with mankind with different rules for different times. I guess the one thing that would change perspectives through time besides the day and time people live in is the perspective with respect to the Redeemer. Looking forward to, looking at, looking backwards upon first visit, looking to return, looking at during the return, etc. Perspectives towards the Redeemer are multi-faceted and different based upon the age and time. Whether I am freed from my sin through Jesus sacrifice, or by the priest killing a non-blemished goat according to instruction of the time, I am freed from sin. In this view there is an incentive to continue on in good works towards the goodness of God. I find people leaning on the "Grace" administration heavily in doctrine and approach too often is because that is the only way they can look in the mirror - to convince themselves if they say a few words of contrition to the mirror God will forgive their sins because they confessed and Jesus paid.

Love it. The last video clip was mesmerizing with the back beat. A track from when twerking was popular a few years ago. I was watching it over and over LOL. The video action can be broken down into 3 segments. The worst karate kata you've ever seen performed The ending presentation of a gymnast's open floor exercise Some kind of hybrid multi-sport movement. Like baseball, basketball, sitting on the bench in football. Something like that. The last segment looks kind of like some form of twerking. I can see the artist thought patterns LOL.

Spot on DWBH. It was the apostles who were clamoring for spot #1 in authority by Jesus not Jesus vying for the #1 spot in their estimation. Focus on Pauline doctrine doesn't make it true that "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ". What they have built it into is Christ being entirely absent, because they ignore Him, his teachings, his sacrifice, his love, his compassion. They exhibit none of those characteristics, they replace them with little rules to live by which enslave people. IMO EW Bullinger exhibited characteristics of extreme OCD behavior. The vast and varying nature of scripture in the OT isn't necessarily consistent with respect to instructing humans on a moral code. So to combat this inconsistency, let's construct the outline of the Bible that God should have inspired someone to write down, but somehow He forgot. And we will include all of the differences as "administrations", because humans can understand change in lifestyle due to a political party changing hands. No, things change over time in life. In fact change is one of the very few things that is consistent in life. Even if we don't change the world around us does. Jesus life had some of the most extreme changes ever seen. Early youth in witness protection. Trade education in hiding. Considered a bastard child from those who knew him. Spent a very short period of time as a minister profession, where he was persecuted incessantly, then captured, falsely accused, falsely tried, condemned, and executed. I think Way people and ex Way people would be better off dumping their egotistical Oxford double-wide margin Bibles with all of Bullinger's "Also"s marked and pick up a red letter edition Gideon Bible at any hotel/motel location across the world (mostly).

The reference of Socrates in this thread has quite an ironic note to it: "he death sentence of Socrates was the legal consequence of asking politico-philosophic questions of his students, from which resulted the two accusations of moral corruption and of impiety." -wikipedia Those two charges basically stemmed from "not respecting the current gods of Athens" and "introducing new gods".

Interesting angle - the metaphor or comparison figure would be the new born-again believer to plant life. A sprout. Does it grow? Does it die? How tall does it get? It shouldn't grow into a wolf in sheep's clothing, for example. But modern day experiences show differently. I guess the figure has limits.

Yes to me this verse sits out all on its own. Unique. Different. So do we attack it because its different? Or use it as a data point to redefine our small ideas?

Yes it makes sense. You can even trace the RnR railroad by their attempts to get there. First like everyone else they reject the totalitarian rule of the Way leadership. Over the course of many years they plan an exit. They try to complain via letter and direct conversation, but they get shut down completely. So they escalate. Letter to the Way Corpse trying to drum up support. Lofty ideas about how true ministries are run by democracies. This lasts until they appear on that YouTube video that started a thread here. Then they were "marked and avoided" by JY de Loser. Now that group that went through extra suffering feels extra entitled. So they are the new leadership in the cult they split off. IMO the dictor was a master at sleight-of-hand techniques with scriptures to get people to suspend critical thinking, all while convincing them he was building critical thinking. Thus you have all these islands of misfit toys basing their lives off of the "critical thinking skills" built in PLAF. People can't get out of that mindset. They can't read commentaries for added insight, they can't hold differing opinions about Christology and discuss them over a good meal, they can't even walk in a modern church without getting twitches. I mean Way-brained theological logic almost has the same ignorant smell and taste that the Westboro Baptist church does. Hate everyone who isn't like you. Excommunicate them. Persecute them. That is the fruit. Combined with a huge ego convinced they understand scriptures like nobody else born on the planet. The Socratic method has an underlying assumption of two equals carrying on a conversation. In the Way there were seldom conversations between two equals. It was always a condescending discussion.

The I Peter 1:23 verse kind of sandwiches in here for an extreme dispensationalist jigsaw puzzle. Israel, no body of Christ not bride, no bride again. How to resolve "to whom" jumps bride -> body -> bride post rapture - all really complicated from dispensation views.. Definitely neither Paul nor Jesus. How to resolve all of these together?

In sorting through this salvation topic (permanent/not) - it seems like one thing missing is a "glossary of terms" of sorts. I think the dictor in his "research" liberally misapplied the mathematical transitive property of equality to several things which are most likely quite different in reality and definitely nuanced in terminology in scripture. Born again Born from above Saved ... Defining all terms to the point where we all agree with everything is a tall order. However, defining these terms probably is going to be a barrier before we can proceed much further along this topic we are discussing IMO. What other phrases belong in this glossary? Any start to definitions? What commentaries or materials cover this? Thoughts?

This reminds me of a Biblical story. Eli and Samuel. Except that Eli was encouraging rather than being a condescending d-bag like herr Rupp. Why it reminds me is God working in an individual and that not being recognized by someone who should have been most in tune.

The anal spectrometry of the dining rules alone far eclipses this description of coordinating napkins. There is an entire dance. Let me regale you about the time I forgot to put my knife down while taking a bite. Very traumatic experience. Also, wanting to correct my mother who grew up passing food around the table via Betty Crocker / Dear Abby and either way is fine. Oh no. Not correct according to proper Christian etiquette. It must only go one way. Then there is a sub-category of dining rules to do with the head table. Only certain select server-girls are qualified enough to deal with this level of Christian etiquette. This is the group that invented breaking lifesaver mints in half. But curiously enough no males ever served in this capacity. Only cute girls, possibly of the rating that could warrant a coach invite. It looks transparent now - then not so much.

Holy sh1t javajane. An artists depiction of recovering from a cult all with a central piece of Athletes of the Spirit? I would love to see pictures of Complex 3 if anyone in Texas is going to see the exhibit.

I remember a number of years ago visiting Washington state. During that time we took a ferry across to Orcas Island and spent a little time there. We ended up seeing a slide show and a piano presentation in a small theater at this place called Rosario. Apparently this place was built by a former mayor of Seattle who was a shipping magnate. He had been diagnosed with cancer and given only a few months to live by doctors. He retired from Seattle and moved to Rosario on Orcas island and took care of himself and relaxed and enjoyed it. Instead of dying in a few months he ended up living 20 years more to the end of his normal life expectancy. During that time he developed his interest in black and white photography, and ended up having an extensive collection drawn upon by the city of Seattle for turn of the century history in Seattle. I hope stories like these are encouraging to you. My prayers go out for sure. My vision for your living each day in peace and victory one day at a time.

The magpies are full of sh1t. I'm so sorry for your struggles and what you are going through. For encouragement, we all do have an expiration date upon this earth. We all do not necessarily know when that date is, in spite of our struggles or facts we are faced with currently. This is all the more reason to live the days we do have left like we want to. Like a warrior. With our kids.

In reading through that commentary and the verse I Peter 1:23 in the context of that, I get the general feeling that God is making a specific point because virtually everything man constructs is corruptible, fallible, perishable. So in contrast to man's works, God is presenting His work in the new birth. This is not a work that will fade away, crumble with age, or fall apart. In contrast with every other part of life which mankind can corrupt, here's a work of God that mankind cannot corrupt. In this it stands unique.