chockfull

I would blame your observations of the younger generation's inability to make change on the poor quality of math education in our country as a start. Yes the face glued to the small square is an evidence of the times, and does have an impact. But my grandfather said the same thing about kids who grew up with calculators not using a slide rule. In my observations, there is a cycle. First technology develops. Then sometime down the road after that, the ethics and practices to deal with that technology develop. I mean, discover nuclear physics, an atomic bomb is dropped, make the government private communication networks public to become the internet, the first business model that develops is internet porn. It seems that mankind goes through a series of fails after technology disrupts their dominion over their world before coming to any form of success on the ethical, moral, and yes intelligence front.

Could you possibly consider the phrase as a euphemism or some form of generalization figure of speech from a human who is enjoying a particular aspect of God's creation at the moment who may tend to speak in more "pollyanna" terms? I mean obviously we are not hearing verbal queues like you did and don't have visuals like you did, and perhaps the person themselves has a tendency towards making "canned" statements in an area that turn you off, and maybe a particular blend of those at a particular moment turned you off. But is your behavior more indicative of Christ's body and appreciating members in particular or is it more towards the divisional fundamentalist type like we experienced in the Way? I don't know. Everyone has to draw lines with respect to how much of another member in particular they can stand for how long because people have different specialties in areas and sometimes quirks to go with it.

Interesting stuff in this post. To sum up how it sounds: It sounds like a degradation of the bloodline, including man's intelligence can be traced through history. But God is accomodating by filling in more and more pieces of truth. (My mind goes to a wheel of fortune puzzle where different letters are revealed each spin). I guess I would differ from this viewpoint in that I carry a good deal more optimism for mankind and the future. I have kids so maybe I want to envision a world where they do well. I see in every field - say sports for example, performance times getting better and better over the decades. Olympic records in events are continually broken, not falling shorter and shorter of the previous decade's records. Technology is one area that it is most evident. Man does some experiment with a type of melted sand, and that leads to cellular phones. I look at the mental health field. As hard as it is to make a science out of human behavior because humans are unpredictable in many ways, we are no longer treating patients with lobotomies or electric shock therapy. Now maybe those last 2 are humans becoming stupider for a century and the Egyptians treated it better, but in general I seem to notice advancement, not retreat in fields.

Wierwille and all of the Way leadership would label the causes I am currently involved in and contributing to "designer causes". Uncle Harry would teach that he used to give to other causes, but now he gives everything to the Way. I think they've got it exactly wrong. Being in a cult is the designer cause. It's the frivolous cause, the one that enslaves many yet produces nothing of value in a community except a bunch of egotistical idiots plotting how to accost people in supermarkets, at home, etc. to convince them to "take the class". You know, the one that was plagiarized originally from BG Leonard, re-worked with the same content in different outline order, and taught by whomever the cult hasn't fired to date. Causes where Christians in Christ's body band together and positively influence communities and genuinely help others those are the genuine causes, those are Christ's work. Whether it is a meal for the homeless a home for the downtrodden or rescuing someone from being drugged up and pimped out all over the world. That's providing value, not ego.

Yes skyrider. The beauty of the open sky and the 4th of july. Freedom. Family. Friends. Food. The freedom in the mind and life are so extremely valuable to me and so enjoyable and a time to note the contrast between now and the enslavements of the past in the Way. I've changed the direction of cult involvement in my generation and my family. Peace and love to you and yours this holiday week where we celebrate freedom. I'm very very thankful for my freedom from the Way, from my old fake friends, from my old lifestyle of conformity to sick people's rules, from bondage. Prisons of the mind indeed enslave beyond brick and mortar prisons. Now it's time to enjoy the rest of our lives. Fresh Air Life It's Good

I just get so tired of seeing so many putting old wine into new wineskins. They should do something unique for a change just to break up the monotony of their behavior as the definition of insanity. Peace

So maybe we need to 'leave' the Way tree logic and 'branch' out into better ways of understanding scripture? LOL. Thanks for the reminder Thomas. Yes plant imagery. I guess Jesus also referred to followers with a parable of planting seed in various types of ground and looking at the harvest and comparing it to people. Of course in the Way with ego unchecked that of course meant people and the various positions they did or did not attain. But the vine imagery flows with the one body imagery does not cut across it. As the vine representation of an individual there is growth, fruit, etc. The individual is a self-contained plant in the image, as opposed to the brainless portion of a photosynthesis process part of a plant in the other image. So the healthy vine image in the Bible is that each person, like a plant is to grow and produce fruit individually. Jesus is highly integrated into this imagery as He is the vine. In the Way, each person is the leaf on a mighty tree. The tree is represented with the Trunk as at times the ministry HQ in Ohio, or each continent had a Trunk at one time. The roots are represented by the teachings of the Bible coming out from the Way International Headquarters. The state headquarters are imagined as "Limbs" of a tree. All of this imagery extends out to how they live and have meetings as well. A "Limb Day", or a "Branch Meeting" is a particular kind of gathering of a certain size group of Way people, all which can be represented by the group's "leadership". The writeup and teaching of the functioning of that group is expressed in the Vision and Direction document by how each layer of the Way Tree is to impart the "heart of the Board of Directors" to the followers on the field. Jesus also calls himself "the way". Which has less than zero to do with the 21st century followers who adopted that name and incorporated it, turning it into a cult in Ohio. The only place Jesus is in this scenario is watching from the right hand of the Father taking notes for the bema when he certainly will have something to say about this type of abomination of his teachings.

Get your Smokey the Bear on. Only you can prevent wildfires.

So in similar logic to the other thread where we are discussing the teaching of the Way International on the "household of God" as separate from the "family of God" and "body of Christ", if you start to examine the Way Tree teaching and logic it actually follows exactly the same pattern. Way Productions sang "I am a leaf, on a mighty tree" as a way to express the followers mindset. This mindset is ANTICHRIST. I think previously DWBH has shared the Way Tree concept came from Alcoholics Anonymous governing structure and statements. So certainly the Bible was not the originator of the Way tree. If you look in the NT you don't find forestry LOL. Jesus doesn't want you to have your only contribution in life to be swishing in the wind and soaking up sunlight, and obeying innately your twig structure so you don't die off. He certainly doesn't view himself as wood. The one body is the analogy for Christians living and functioning in modern times. That analogy is actually from the Bible. So instead of being a leaf, we are to be members in particular, seeking our functioning according to our longsuits. Not statically soaking up sunshine and making nutrients to flow up through the twig to the Branch report blue forms to the Limb to the Region to the Trunk Headquarters and diligently carrying out Vision and Direction plans and orders from the Trunk back down to the leaflet taking them out on mandated witnessing outings like the Jehovah's Witnesses do. You see the Way Tree puts the focus on the Trunk and the structure. That is what is most important. Those elite individuals at the top of the food chain in the organizational structure. Where exactly is Jesus Christ, our Risen and Ascended Lord and Savior in the Way Tree analogy? Oh, he's not there? Remarkable. This teaching is ANTICHRIST because it puts elite individuals and an organization structure in place of Jesus Christ at the head of the body and His body. But since the Way is so insistent on a forestry image, I thought I'd carry that thinking a little farther similar to how Paul did the one body of Christ concept. Many of our North American forests are suffering from an infestation of the pine beetle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_pine_beetle This little insect burrows in and kills off trees. They die standing, and over some time cure into some beautiful kindling. All it takes is one negligent camper, a smoker not putting out a cigarette, and BOOM, instant forest fire. You can see them in the news all over the western US. Burns everything to the ground. But the interesting thing about it is that some of the pine tree varieties actually their seeds require that forest fire to germinate and grow the next generation of trees. Pretty interesting. So that to me is kind of the reality of the Way Tree analogy. But trying to live according to our NT instructions as a one body of Christ as a leaflet on a mighty tree? Or as a limb, branch or trunk element existing solely to carry nutrients to the leaflet from the roots which are HQ and the Sunday Teaching Service. No, that my friends is ANTICHRIST

Twinky in my opinion your mindset and how you are carrying this out practically is living the intent of Paul's teaching on the one body. I prefer your mindset any day of the week over elitist anti-Christ crapola about the household. This to me is leadership. What you are doing there in interacting and serving in your community is a healthy model for recovering cult followers: Take off the tinfoil hat. Stop being elitist. Stop thinking you are "Gamaliel the elder" with the need for people sitting at your feet. Take your "twig" around to visit all the different churches in your community and see how you could partner with them or help them. They are already doing it with each other many of them. Now the exact makeup of this in each area probably is going to look a little different. For example, I don't have the denominational reporting structures of parent churches and I go to a community church. But the element I live similar to Twinky is that I volunteer and serve others as a Christian through programs. I like Habitat for Humanity a lot lately. Our church partners with Damascus Road - https://damascusroadproject.org/ - ending sex trafficking. I like helping them too - financially, community support. Other Christians are involved, go to other churches, there is a comraderie, a common goal, a real genuine service to others and society different than the Jehovah's witness style door-to-door witnessing in the Way trying to convince people to come sit in your house and be under your spiritual authority.

Humans have a tremendous capacity for not only evil but to actually care about one another and do good. You see splashes of it here and there. The way I find Christians that actually care about people is to show them I care about them unconditionally first. If we can change ourselves we can change the world. Dude, totally. Even the term "earthly family" if you think about it smacks of tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. "I have to go make a phone call to my earthly family". It leads to so many questions: Why? Were you abducted by aliens and they adopted you? Do they have shared custody? Will you get sufficient reception for the call on your tinfoil hat or do you need to use a cell phone? Do you think the alien spaceship commander will approve the long distance minutes for your call to earth? LOL.

What damage does this view on the household of God separate from the family of God do? It provides an environment where human evil can breed unchecked. What it leads to is the distinction in every follower's mind of some form of elite group separate from the body of Christ, yet fulfilling all of the things the body of Christ is supposed to. This breeds a form of "spiritual elitism" which comes off as ego. It definitely involves the ego, and it is like a virus on a computer - it masks itself. The ego masks as altruism. "We're just trying to move the Word over the world". "We're just trying to help people". They don't realize that due to this false doctrine they systematically violate scripture by continually judging their brother in Christ as somewhat less than they and their group are. I timothy 1:19 speaks of this: holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and thereby shipwrecked their faith I think "shipwrecked" is a perfect word to describe this state. Like on "Gilligan's Island" the crew and passengers set sail on a 3 hour tour. They become marooned on an island separated off from society and create their own little socio-political-economic system on an island that becomes its own identity. What Way followers and former Way followers do not realize is they can rescue themselves from their own Gilligan's island by just rejecting false doctrine and interacting with other Christians not of the same background from the Way. That's not a "cure-all" or anything, just logically putting yourself into the path of others and viewing them as scripture tells you to.

The post implying willful ignorance doesn't ring a bell so I suspect the answer is I might not have seen it or it didn't sufficiently catch my attention? I'm dragging vpw into it as the source of my education as well as most of our education on dispensationalism. And obviating the fact that what we are doing here is not a research project by a group of people with PhD's in Biblical languages, it is delving into scripture by Christian laymen whose primary common experience is a class where we were trained in certain principles on "How the Word Interprets Itself" and that was labeled "Biblical research". I didn't research Bullinger, Darby, or Scofeld prior to the Way. My feeling is if you don't drag vpw into the conversation then his presence will haunt you through his false doctrine that people don't even realize they still have stuck in the corners of their cranium. But if that's not you then feel free to consider that part as me droning on. Yes thanks for considering the rest of the meat of my post. I enjoy the exchange with everyone and the viewpoints that are different than mine are not a personal affront or challenge but rather an augmentation of my view as I stop to consider the viewpoint. I think this thread is a good example that we haven't arrived at all the truth we need for this generation and need to keep studying and discussing.

OK, I will rephrase. I feel you got the intent, but apparently due to a couple of scriptures having similar phrases, the accuracy is missed. I will take that as I need to explain it better. THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD DISTINCT FROM THE BODY OF CHRIST. Or, if you understand the statement with a bit of original intent there is no "household of God" as taught by the Way International. This meaning that ordinary Christians are "in the family of God", but those in the Way are "in the household of God".. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE FAMILY OF GOD AND THE HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. As applied to the verses in Gal and Eph above, both references are talking about the overall group of Christians in the world that one might encounter as a classification separate than "all men". Those verses carry an instruction to value highly all those belonging to Christ, not a distinct group under authority of the Way, or the R&R railroad folks, or whatever church it is you might be attending. Paul's instruction is not saying to Christian believers "do good unto all, but single out those in your church only to be especially good unto" or saying that the "fellowcitizens with the saints" is a group that includes only those of your particular denomination. Definitely not those who "took the class" or some such nonsense. For Way people THERE IS NO HOUSEHOLD OF GOD. THERE IS ONLY A FAMILY OF GOD WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST ON EARTH TODAY.

So on the education dig I know that's pointed towards someone on this thread, but I think criticizing any of us on our education background is a bit obnoxious. I mean my theological education was 4 years at the hands of a huckster who was the reason for this forum existing in the first place. If you want to direct criticism at education, I think VP pretty much is the center of attention there A mail-order doctorate degree. Wild stories to get in hippy girls pants, written up into a fairy tale novel of snow on gas pumps, repeated under the breath by admiring young people, and used to manipulate lives and amass a fortune that others are still using to mistreat people today. The overall flavor I get as I am reading a lot of these sources, like the two above, is that there is somewhat of an expectation that theology "develops" like other fields we are exposed to like philosophy, mathematics, electrical engineering, computer science. There are "fathers" of say psychology like Sigmund Freud, BF Skinner, who developed significant ideas in their fields that become the foundation of the field for further learning. The overall question it is starting to leave me with is when we are talking about theology and man's faith, is this something man originated or something God originated? If it is something man originated, then it makes sense to track it as other fields we have. Thoughts can develop over time, become tested with the scientific method, proven, and widely accepted. They can help people over time. However, if "theology" is something God originated, then the effort to continue constructing man's thought is nothing more than a modern tower of Babel. I guess it's kind of weird, because we talk about the same thing from two different angles - "faith" in a way to indicate that it's a belief not a mental construct, and "theology" indicating man's systemic study of God which is 100% mental constructs. So, which one is it folks in your opinion?

Covenant is just "agreement" right? I mean sorry for the non-enlightened modern English but the only place I run into "covenant" in today's society is some of the following: 1. Some stupid legal agreement I have to sign with my neighbors so they can leave nasty notes if my trees aren't trimmed to their likng 2. Indiana Jones movies 3. Video games similar to Indiana Jones movies

Interesting that our human perspective includes the time in which people become aware of something. How many moves ahead did Fischer think? Spassky? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) How about Kasparov? He didn't think quite as far ahead as Deep Blue, but then again he seemed to survive in the world of humans and just about ran for Russian president lately. It's hard for me to give myself a "God complex" and try to think like I am not constrained by time. But then again I'm not in the Way anymore either LOL.

I want to make sure that a "sensory oriented brain" and a "spiritually oriented brain" are not illusions brought about by an elitist spiritual attitude. I mean records of Eli and Samuel, Elijah, and Elisha, Moses, Noah. Boy such a relief that I don't have a "sensory oriented brain" like those guys. I guess what would go through my brain if someone claimed to be the "Israel of God" is asking them whether they are Jewish or not. Then joking about who is buying lunch. But maybe that's too sensory oriented LOL. Actually I might also ask them if they were a person of color if they are native American, as "Israel" is a common first name among some tribes. Isn't the point of Hebrews 11 that "believing" looks the same regardless of "administration"???

This paragraph has a lot of questions that summarize a lot of the key concerns in the other thread on "Can salvation be lost" as well. Just noting. One of the trickiest cases I suppose with respect to both dispensationalism and can you lose salvation would be Judas Iscariot. What does his life / spiritual destiny / rewards / whatever look like?

So, prize-winning 500 kilo watermelons in the Garden of Eden? And we just have to suffer and get by with the 5 kg ones today? Fresh basil? Thyme? Oregano? Come on now, the farmer's market is in full swing with some of the greatest delicacies in all of life. Don't be raining on my parade LOL. Also, I did see on CBS news a contradictory viewpoint at least with one crop: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/marijuana-far-more-potent-than-it-used-to-be-tests-find/

I'm not so sure I am really liking the whole concept of living in a "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome Time" where everything around me is cursed, polluted, and barren. I like to grow lettuce, tomatoes, and herbs, and cook food. I know everyone says that seed company Monsanto is born of the devil or something but they could just be engineers too. The American Indians had a much more peace producing mental image, of "Mother Earth" who provides for us and we interact with. Would those two mental models be called an "innately negative model" versus an "innately positive model" ????

Jumping in on one angle on this - sorry for any interruption of logic guys. I would see myself as the "seed of Abraham" in a figurative sense. Hebrews 11 to me kind of gives a flavor like "your believing makes you Israel" kind of thing. Which leads to a bit of enlightenment, yet another question. Is "Israel" a figurative term in the Bible? Here? Where?

Hey TBone, Good thoughts here. One of the main things I struggle with regarding scriptures and how they relate to mankind through the centuries and millenniums is when I start to get a feel that the mental constructs involved in fitting together and making sense of scripture start to become more intricately involved than the scripture itself that is a red flag. If I need a 10 page mental model to understand a 3 line scripture, that is the point I start questioning the logic that led me there. We've traversed a few roads on the dispensationalism topic in this thread. We are looking at working definitions, we are delving into detailed discussions of ideas regarding the divisions of time as well as the stewardship of people's lives and materials. We are discussing covenant relationships between God and man. If I back up to a 15,000 foot level, this starts to make more sense. God cares about how we live our lives. Some important areas regarding stewardship of how we live our lives are how we take care of people and their lives, and how we take care of our things with a care towards not wasting physical resources God has richly provided us with. Also, that we keep God and humility towards and thankfulness for Him in the forefront of our minds, so as not to become elevated with our own importance. Whatever rules regarding living and legal matters God has exist for a time, not for all time. One of Paul's comments in the Colossians letter talks about this. (Col 2:21-23 Berean study bible) Alive in Christ…21“Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!”? 22These will allperish with use, because they are based on human commandsand teachings. 23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.… If I approach looking at the timelines of mankind laid out in the Bible more from this perspective to me it makes more sense. I don't need to sacrifice livestock because I don't own any other than what is processed in my freezer. But we still do food drives in churches. What God cares about is how I keep Elohim in my reverence, how I treat others, and how I steward my physicals. I would agree with you that many times labels - "dispensationalists" , "fundamentalism", "covenant theory", "preterism", etc. impede progress in discussion - you mentioned that you thought dispensationalists generally think salvation is by grace through faith just like the rest of Christians. I think that humans like to sort other humans into buckets. If they can do that, rather than relying on thought power to interact with a person, they can rely on their previous experience interacting with a similar (to them) type of person and not have to re-visit logic and thoughts. They can dismiss another offhand. We all do this. It's not all bad. In a way it is a defense mechanism keeping us safe, and a way people think they are living avoiding the forms of all evil. But the more real of a picture we want to have the more we are going to have to bypass this type of logic with each other and be real and authentic. It's hard work. Actually read every line. Actually consider every phrase. Actually look up references. Actually relate to each other even though we can't see each other and are missing visual and audio cues. That's where I'm at. Thanks for all the discussion all.

Yeah its him recognize the picture. I haven't seen it discussed here - maybe on FB - the charge was in 2014. They had family money from perfume business, he bought a place a few miles from HQ he was Prez cabinet for the longest time - ran multi-services dept at one point I remember. They have 2 grown beautiful blond haired daughters so this is all the more shocking. The legal charges seem to indicate abduction as well as some form of sexual contact with a 6 year old girl. The address given is Cleveland area so not HQ any longer.

windows 10 it runs fine some people are sticking with windows 7. But they will make no new versioning and it is not available to buy licenses any more. And no support.