chockfull

So that part was only to the twig that was having sex with shaved head temple harlots while worshipping? Cool story bro. Why write it with the intention to be passed around all the other churches then?

Yes doctrinal at this point.

I was not suggesting the believers have not been "blessed". I mean sometimes they aren't because it's a person presenting ego in the form of a supposed gift, but that's another story. But by and large the law of giving rewards everyone involved. So what do you believe modern day apostles "gift" should or do look like to the church? How about "prophets" or the other 3 the Way lists together? Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers?

Actually I was getting at what your views are on the hair thing referred to in I Cor 11:14, 15. But instead of answering it seems you are passing on that, instead saying it should be plenty obvious enough. Next you are pushing it back on me saying I have an issue understanding verses because the Way taught false doctrine? But you don't? How about instead of the ad hominem attack, you just answer the question about how you fit in Paul's writings on hair length with the God breathed topic.

14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. Clarifying here - so these scriptures in I Cor. 11:14, 15 are not the crap that is God-breathed. There is other crap that is God-breathed in Corinthians but this crap isn't? I think this kind of gets down to what we were discussing in "Thus Saith Paul" the title of the thread. What part of Paul's crap is God breathed and what part is not. Or all of it is God-breathed and God likes obedient women in hijabs. And Pentecostal preachers with haircuts from a salad bowl. (I remember listening to this Pentecostal preacher one time live in a tent and he was at 110 decibels going on about how someone found the Lord and cut their hair).

No, and I also didn't know that all the hair bands in the 90's were "disgraceful" naturally per I Cor 11:15. Didn't seem that way to me at the time - all the girls wanted to hang out with them. I also know the Way jargon interpolation of that section of scripture how "covering" really means you are obedient and have the permission of your husband. But the husband only has to ask the Lord, that is unless he is in the "household" where he has to tell Rosalie if he's going off grounds to buy flowers for his wife. Many women I conversed with in the Way felt that to be demeaning, and certainly the male leaders used it to make their spouses walk 10 feet behind them. And mind you now, God is breathing all this stuff. Right?

Yes I'm aware of the Way jargon explanation. However, it's inaccurate. If you as an individual give to others, God gives back to you. So you do indirectly benefit. Furthermore, as I was indicating in the first post on this thread, besides the party line "these gifts are given to the body of believers", when you start to take a look at what that actually looks like, it is somewhat eye-opening. For example, the gift of an apostle given to the body of believers looks like what? Or a prophet? Or a pastor? What did it look like in the Way? How about now? Mainstream Christianity doesn't speak in terms of gift ministries. They speak in terms of "pastors", "associate pastors", etc. which is a term of function, not of gift. What is a "deacon thing"? Even in the Corpse the Way big top tent always had chairs strung by Corpse. And we were all these "gift ministry" types doing that. Or whatever. That's what they were teaching us. And the leaders large and in charge were certainly making their gifts known. What do "deacons" do? Deac? And elders eld? See I can drum up some PLAF jargon myself if needed. In mainstream Christianity I've experienced recently, a "gift ministry" if you asked a deacon or an elder about it would probably talk about how they evaluate teaching pastors. It's easy. How much weekly revenue do they generate? Your small church sounds like a cool grassroots thing going on, and you have a personal connection there. Your service from the heart as a landlord to straighten chairs is not to be discounted. It catches God's attention where the blathering of people's ego on knowledge of scriptures fails to. Ministering to others is a gift to them. Whether it is a simple thing to make them feel better like aligning chairs, or more complicated involving more involvement in their lives. That's the simplicity of it. The more people talk "gift ministry" constructs, the more it starts to sound like the tower of Babel century 2000. With positional hierarchy like blatherers and janitors.

So as an individual functioning, you would not tend to notice in what area your talents are showing results? Or are you saying this is a Zen kind of thing? Just stay your mind on stringing those chairs, and people walking by will know you're a pastor? People with talent who brag about it are intolerable in any field, sport, group, or sense. Those with talent who display humility are usually universally loved.

I think actually the Way's use of the word "gift" kind of ruins the way we use the word in normal conversation in society. Like for example, seeing a girl twirl high above the earth wrapped only in a long silk scarf one would normally exclaim "that girl has a gift". Typically we would mean that in the sense that the girl has developed herself into great kinesthetic understanding and display. We would encourage the girl to "develop her gift". Or in another sense, a friend of mine has a troubled son. He is spoken of as having a "gift for getting in trouble". He also gets in fights. So my friend instead of having his son develop his gifts in the direction of being a prison gang leader, he is exerting a more positive influence and enrolling him in mixed martial arts classes so he can instead have a career in the UFC. But Wayspeak we would be correcting that midstream. Oh, no, the only Biblically accurate usages of the word "gift" are either holy spirit non-capitalized, or gift ministries, which are these magical things that work just like the manifestations, except with extra power. So when a "gift ministry" person would operate manifestations, whooo laa laa, we were to expect fireworks. Like, you know, listening to the Veepster speak in tongues. Oh wait. That just sounded like preschool nonsense Italian all the time LOL. And I'll tell you, the higher up the chain you would climb interacting with people in the Way, the less you would see of the miraculous, and the more you would see of the pettiness of Machiavellian rule.

This was a topic that was always puzzling to me. Mostly because I would watch what people who other people told me were these "gift ministries" and see what they did. What I observed was that first of all there was this really cool sounding expanded definition of these terms in Paul's letters that the Veepster came up with. Next they are compiled into this really cool list of 5, which appears nowhere as a list in the Bible, but people like lists, so hey. Plus 5 is a really great number. You can make little objects with 5 sides, like say little pentagon figures, which translate nicely into stained glass windows, decals, and hockey puck like objects which can be placed on people's desks to really impress others, along with a miniature bronze of VP. I mean Walt Disney didn't even accomplish that!!!! Now as I've started reading the Bible more in context, and less with a puffed up head, I see these titles which the Way handed out like the Queen of England does Baron titles with a little word of prophecy or a "reverend" word causing endless antics in people like you read about with Jesus 12 apostles. The "sons of thunder" were always measuring something, that's for sure. However, as you might guess, my views on this are more towards the interpretation that as Jesus Christ my Risen and Ascended Lord and Savior moves about and energizes His Body in the day, it is not in the fashion of the ego combined with the pyramid scheme, speaking to "right reverend so-and-so, the Limb coordinator of the great state of Confusion". No, people just help other people and God energizes and Christ brings the fire. But as a little fun, I thought I would list out all of the Way "Gift Ministries" and what I observed about the people that "had" or "operated" them: Apostle - Pimp Daddy. Owns multiple cars, motorcoaches, motorcycles, airplanes, sexual partners. Brings "new light" to a generation, and if that light in the eye is evil then how great is that evil. Prophet - @sshole Evangelist - Field Mage - once got someone to "take the class" in the 70s now organizes "witnessing charts" so everyone else can do the same now Pastor - the trickle down gift. If the "prophecy" flows down past #1 - #3 and didn't stick to you, then this is probably you. The average good joe "gift ministry" Teacher - never met anyone who admitted to having this one, it was kind of swept under the carpet. So according to the teaching of the display in the Houston art gallery "Complex 3", we are to dress in athletic rainbow colored tights to identify ourselves as the non-reptilian team, and lead others in synchronized dance so they too can avoid the lizard-people humping in the middle of the floor. What say you Spotters??? Gift Ministries ???????? !!!!!!!!! ?????????????

Well if you are choosing Corinthians as the ground upon which to stand to make your point, was then Paul not a man to be merely only "inspired" by his strong feelings about women and hair coverings in I Corinthians 11 two chapters later? Why then is it that no modern Christian women follow his hair recommendations, yet Muslim women all over the world are covering up the head for religious reasons? The hijab is now even in sand volleyball in the Olympics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab Are they all not taking Paul's writings with enough levity?

Well, there is a further context of canon of scripture in the discussion. What authority is what scriptural writing, who bestowed that authority, etc. If you were reacting specifically to another post you felt was too slanted towards "Paul was just a man" I get it. I agree that his statements pretty much show very clearly Paul feels he is inspired by God. But what does that mean? What degree of fundamentalism is the correct degree? Does "inspired by God" mean that we need to jot and tittle examine the NT like the OT and come up with a corresponding NT Talmud to instruct people how to live? To me, Greek fans, the Greek for "scribe" in the NT is telling,: grammateus

When I read Galatians 1 I don't see it as so cut and dried. You look at Paul's life, and he was a major a-hole and probably like a-hole zealots we may have met in our lives, not caring about human lives in the pursuit of their cause. Trained up under Gamaliel to be OCD about religion. The Pharisees were so pure they organized hierarchies of Pharisees just so they didn't have to touch the common man. (On a side note, the book "Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" that is recommended around here has a great scriptural study of Pharisees involved with it). Then he had the major incident being struck down by the Lord. Now I don't know what that experience was like, but it certainly doesn't seem to be anything normal like you hear about people accepting Christ and their conversion story. And just due to the extremity of Paul's life it would also of necessity have to be extreme to catch his attention. After this, he had minimal contact with other apostles, and went all around the world. Sharing the gospel. What "gospel" do you think specifically he was talking about? Oh, I'm Paul, I'm inspired thus every thing that comes out of my mouth including all the craziness of my thought life and interaction with God is God-breathed and thus every jot and tittle of it thou must consider as coming from the most High Himself and carry it out without question or you will lose your salvation? Or rather the more simple message of "I was an a-hole, chief amongst them, and Jesus got to me. So there's hope for you regardless of background". Then people got together and did some of the living the life part. But all of that was completely removed from Jerusalem, the apostles there, connection with and leadership, etc. Basically, for the vast majority of the people that Paul ministered to, the interaction consisted of a very short high intensity wonderful period of time, followed by absolutely no contact, and maybe a few years later a letter gets passed to you. As a matter of fact, that is at least a sub-point in the very text we are reading. v22 I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea in Christ. (Another side point - this is another nail in the coffin of the Way's idea of Household of God - the originator of the term didn't try to impose that culture on his followers). So if you are extracting some kind of "read em and weep" message out of that, I think that's just you. Because I doubt Paul felt that way about all of those Christians that were in the churches of Judea in Christ. How he felt he wrote. He felt the Christians of the churches of Judea in Christ were part of the body of Christ, where one part may not know what the other is doing, but can't say they have no need of them. I don't see in Paul any aspect of a card game - bluffing, showing cards, read em and weep, anything.

Some of the size perspective just depends on where the viewpoint is. For instance, I used to be a little paranoid when I told my story to other Christians that they would have heard of "the Way". By and large they have not. So from that perspective it is small. But I look at the number of lives that were damaged of people I personally knew and know. That number seems really large to me. Especially when you compare percentages to your average church. There are problems in churches too but not that kind of damage.

Yes my viewpoint also. I love reading Paul. There is some really inspiring uplifting stuff there. But other stuff really wild. And whatever direct issues he was dealing with, like at Corinth, when you get a group like the Way with its secret society swinger's club interpreting it, it's bound to be twisted. Your question posed on "canon" had me look that up in a dictionary. Intriguing: can·on·ize ˈkanəˌnīz/ verb verb: canonize; 3rd person present: canonizes; past tense: canonized; past participle: canonized; gerund or present participle: canonizing; verb: canonise; 3rd person present: canonises; past tense: canonised; past participle: canonised; gerund or present participle: canonising (in the Roman Catholic Church) officially declare (a dead person) to be a saint. "he was the last English saint to be canonized prior to the Reformation" synonyms: declare to be a saint; More regard as being above reproach or of great significance. "we have canonized freedom of speech as an absolute value overriding all others" synonyms: declare to be a saint; More accept into the literary or artistic canon. "a familiar, canonized writer" sanction by Church authority. Those who decided which writings were "in" and which writings were "out" were a council of Roman Catholic priests. I wonder if they had the same type of questionnaire they did then they do for saint evaluation. "Did he perform a notable miracle while alive?" If so, check yes. If not, check no. LOL. And of course councils like this never, ever, ever, ever, ever make mistakes, right?

Great stuff skyrider. Sometimes people get this image of the man ingrained into their brain cells and the image becomes larger than life. The Way continually promotes this with the never-ending whitewashing along with life-size bronzes of VPW and other such idolatry. When people spend decades not questioning that mental image, it leads to disaster. You are breaking down the man into realistic pieces so that people should be able to pop the bubble of that image if they so desire. Peace

This totally reminds me of some bathroom graffiti I read once that said: "God is dead" - Nietzsche - 1875 Then that was scratched out and over it was written "Nietzche is dead" - God - 1900

Rocky, You are spot on with the pyramid scheme stuff. And I love the Plato quotes too. Peace.

I personally think "The Last Adam" would be a tremendous name for a band.

Hi BecomingMe. Welcome to the Spot. Nice to meet you. I come here because it's closer than going to California to get my head together. LOL. Plus no way I could afford housing there lately. As to rambling, I personally think I do that really a lot. And I have a really big mouth. Yep. Big mouth rambler, that's me. I think the PTSD will go away in time. Mostly. I mean the good part about it is if it doesn't then we can ramble on about it until it does. It's kind of a built-in self healing mechanism. LOL.

T-Bone, great observation. I definitely think it is exactly against Christ because it sets up a human structure in place of Christ. If something is in place of Christ, then all of the normal benefits of Christ are not being realized. The adulation and dare say praise owed to Christ are instead diverted to the "other Christ" or "little Christ" or "anti Christ" object. Any real relationship benefit with our living and ascended Lord and Savior is also replaced. Even down to the proscribed language of prayer. Unlike in mainstream Christianity, where people are known to regularly pray to / talk to Jesus in a sense, this is verbotten in the Way, because of a scriptural manipulation. "We don't pray to the son, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son", and then you have that whole bridge poster or whatever to describe it. Another way around it is "the Word takes the place of the absent Christ". All right - you're going to have to pardon me while I rant for a moment. <rant> First off, why the F is Christ so F'ing absent there, F heads (perdon my French as that is what you can substitute in place of the Fs) ? Second off, I'm sure you need some "Wierwillein Logic" to get there that involves poor understanding of mathematics transitive property of equality if I recall. Last, is this some kind of predecessor to the fear and reality that robots are taking my job? Is Jesus to grow old playing checkers because now he's not needed as "da Verd" has replaced him? </rant> I know I will garner criticism in my rant because supposedly the intent is that Christ isn't physically present but your Bible is, with all it's 500+ Bullinger's "also"s marked in your KJV as well as your "holy spirit usage" numbers because you are an Advanced Class graduate and that is a prerequisite LOL. But really. Come on now. Think about it. No tinfoil hat needed. Raj can speak to his family in India over Skype personal every Big Bang Theory episode. But Jesus, who could poof appear to people here and there in his new body, do a nice nature trail on the way to Damascus for a bit then disappear, and all such even before he ascended, he can't really accomplish the real involvement thing? God has to replace him with a series of tomes many centuries removed from original languages and intents? No, Christ is only absent because people make Him so. Cults make Him absent by replacing Him* with centuries old tomes, the interpretation of which is given to wizards in their tribe only. *So if the capitalization thing triggers you, just think of it as Jesus as my Lord is important enough to me for me to capitalize his pronoun when I'm making a point but sometimes I don't so don't make a thing out of it, K?

Wow. TLC your thread necromancy has pulled up a doozie. Some gems from the late Steve Lortz. A great discussion of many things going on currently in doctrinal. A good read.

Don't you just love it when one man decides what God is going to decide regarding another man's salvation? That line of thinking is looney in the tooney LOL.

The Way started out more towards its roots as we look into it with an ecumenical bent. At one point it was even named "The Way Ecumenical Bible Center" or some such similar phrase. I recall black and white videos and cars pulling up to the Biblical Research Center and bouffant hairdos and Victor Paul Wierwille teaching the Sunday Teaching Service, which later was transcribed by his secretary and became the PFAL class collaterals. Mal and Jan George with Jan with one of those bouffant do's or something. But I think the problem old VP had was people wouldn't stick. They would say "nice class" and go back to their churches. There was the old "Spiritual 40 club" or something, some method for VP to pay travel expenses to bring in teachers that formed the bulk of who he either mimic'd in nice terms or plagiarized in realistic terms. Eventually over time VP found out that being the nice guy didn't make an impact. No, he needed more followers for planes, coaches, and motorcycles. More adulation, more money. So the root to getting people to leave their churches was poisoning the well. Conspiracy theory that VP espoused and had a high level of interest in was a great resource to tap into to accomplish this. Focus on the Illuminati for a little while, and then pretty much you can connect conspiracy theories to the devil's work throughout all the major Christian denominations especially the Catholics modern Christianity's whipping boy. The Pope as well as denomination heads were part of the Illuminati. The Illuminati was really a new term VP invented called "seed of the serpent" extracted from some permutation of Genesis discussion of seed. So that conspiracy theory he can introduce in the Advanced Class, where you have people out of their own element and not connected to questioning intelligence. He started teaching that seed stuff in the foundational though but they took it out because people would think they were that in his classes. But what was in is VP's subtle sleight-of-hand magic with scriptures, coming off as a spiritual authority in the area of Biblical research. The real research commandos of modern Christianity. However that was a Drambuie-infused Kool cigarette pipe dream. If you want to know the reality purchase a copy of penworks book Undertow. That details a firsthand account of an early Corps graduate on the research team and lays bare how VP did research. The key though was all of the Bullinger plagiarized stuff, which he morphed into "Keys to How the Word interprets Itself". Then he could dissect up the gospels with a new interpretation making all previous obsolete and declaring himself as "the" Christian visionary of the time. And have detailed instructional dogma just like L. Ron Hubbard did in Scientology to force on the noob cult member. It should have instead have been entitled "Keys to How the Word Was Removed From the Brain Cells Through a Magical False Prophet's Sleight of Hand"