chockfull

It's the same thing with the Way's most prized Biblical research possessions, the "literal translations according to usage". These were seen in the University of Life courses, which were Way Corps teachings. The quoted words are basically invented language to hide the fact that this is really a commentary on scriptures by a cult leader.

Interesting thought - the Bible interprets itself. So here Wierwille is introducing a "personification" of the literal scripture here. A figure of speech about the Bible itself. And what does this Bible do? Self-interprets. What purpose does this figure of speech serve? To hide the hand of Wierwille's interpretation? Put in place of it the Bible itself doing the interpreting and coming up with the exact thing Wierwille is saying? This totally reminds me of the movie "The Usual Suspects" where Kevin Spacey plays a fictional crimelord Kaizer Soze. The famous quote from the movie is: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.' That is the true "greatest secret the world never knew" and the truth behind Victor Paul Wierwille's interpretation of the Bible.

Hi AlohaAnn, Thanks for your story. In a "normal" church, local community church, local Catholic church, local denominational church, local interdenominational church, you would see multiple generations of people, happy and interacting with one another. In a cult, you see families divided over the egos of the elite. Elitism, excommunication actively in practice towards family members. Like Scientology for instance. Or the Way, obviously. So when the rubber meets the road, the Way International really has more in common functionally with Scientology than it does with it's supposed brothers and sisters in the body of Christ in mainstream Christianity, denominational, or almost any other blend. BTW I used to have the title Corps. Until I realized it was driving towards Corpse. So I dropped it and joined the land of the living like your kids, and you for that matter. Peace, cheers, and a happy and long prosperous life with the Way in the rearview mirror!!!!!

T-Bone I think you are my favorite movie critic!!!!! LOL

Sad to hear, At A Loss. When you look at the lives of those who thought they were so high spiritually, and see the destruction, you absolutely see where they sold their souls over the years. Here you see ordained Way ministry leaders very clearly violating scriptures in Genesis 2:24 and Ephesians 5:31-33 interfering in children's lives and causing deep destruction across multiple generations. Their conscience is so seared they can't see the difference between their own behavior and the Amish next door, or any other group preventing marriage due to improper religion of the person their daughter chose. They violate scripture without a second thought. They have no remorse. That title means they sold their soul to an organization not to God. And if that man didn't have the intestinal fortitude to keep his wife from doing that and moving in like she did I don't know how he looks at himself in the mirror. Actually yes I do. With a seared conscience. How pathetic!!! It sounds like your son was caught in some weird version of the movie "The Wicker Man" from 2006. Thankfully unlike the end of that movie he didn't go up in flames! Hopefully over time things will smooth out and he will find a way forward for new growth in his life. I wouldn't hold my breath on those @$$holes having a change of heart anytime soon though. I really hope I don't know them because the likelihood is that I did know them years ago. When you look at the Way and its history, what you see is interference in marriages pretty much across the board. Where people try to control others, they control their marriages. Whatever they say with their mouth, their actions say the real story and what is in their hearts.

Because my presence brings joy and light to the world - LOL

Well, not that dark or anything, but definitely being the youngest of 6 children is an aspect. The baby of a large family. 6 children over 19 years. When Vic was born, the family dynamics looked like: Reuben - 4 Harry - 9 Sevilla - 13 Otto - 17 Lydia - 20 Babies of families are often known for certain characteristics - pampered, get away with murder, attention-seeking, bullied by older siblings, parents are too old and tired for strict standards, used to getting their own way. Of course not every youngest child of 6 becomes a VPW, but there are certain family dynamics that are absolutely present in his childhood as a fertile ground for the narcissist to develop. I do believe that mentally ill people bear responsibility for awareness and treatment of their illness. These traits sound like they were unchecked through his teenage years with the attitudes and stunts noted above in this thread. Homiletics as a field of study is the perfect breeding ground for the narcissist - it's all about 'me' - how do ' I ' look? How are people responding to ME? With all the misogynistic views on women, some of that was part of that staunch German culture, who knows what demons are in the background there when you think about the origins to some of his perverseness. Anyway my thoughts / contributions on the topic. For the .03 with inflation they are worth. LOL.

So for my own take on the class card benefits - LOL: Enables you to separate truth from error - primarily by redefining Wierwillian error as truth. Develops more harmony in the home - and if you don't like that home you can always mark and avoid everyone in it and start your own gender non-specific home. Makes life meaningful - the life of a hamster on a wheel - it has great meaning. Always something to do, always somewhere to go. This class, that class, outreach, programs. You just have to ignore the fact that the wheel drives motion for revenue for a cult. And you never go anywhere, always the same place, same wheel. Life is a perpetual motion wheel of meaning.

It's kind of interesting to see where all that went over the years. The Wierwille family legacy was a hot topic for a while, and JP and Sarah's(VP youngest daughter) boys were the focus to be predestined to take the Word to their generation or some such hooeeeey. So JP and Sarah left the Way and joined CFFM. I guess that wasn't in the revelation. Then their son V2P2 is the one that started up that other Corpse training on the farm where he gets to act like some cult leader. So did that time of focus ingrain something in that little kid to cause him to Jonestown out on his own little farm and re-instate the 5 Corpse principles?

I don't think so. Labels can be helpful to group general behavior or approaches, but my beliefs are that when it comes down to the core and concepts like faith it is very much a personal thing how people put it together. And labels at that point only serve to divide....

Plato's cave is the problem with fundamentalism and the Bible. It ends in a bunch of people skilled in making hand puppet forms to project shadows on the wall judging one another according to the detail and coherency of those shadows.

I realized a similar kind of shame while watching a documentary on the Diary of Anne Frank, coming to grips with the fact that it was written over a 2 year period while that little girl was hiding out in secret crawlspaces in their house they constructed to avoid the Nazi investigators. They were finally turned in by a neighbor out of fear. I believe that VPW used to call that one fictional, or fake. Thx for sharing.

I really like the clarity we are starting to develop when looking back with our 20/20 hindsight. The clarity of that section of scripture in 2 Peter 2 as it pertains to our experience in the Way is right on, sky. Sometimes I wish that clarity was not developed by personally experiencing the loss and ruinous destructive ways that we have. Everything has a cost. Jesus taught "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees". I never knew that would mean chasing down active yeast bubbles in my mind years later, to include patching up all that caused the loss. In its least common denominator, the Way was and is a psychological manipulation group. What they call being a "cop-out" is nothing more than people's normal defense mechanisms kicking in causing them to react against the manipulation. Now they have the conundrum to deal with that all the "cop-outs" are discussing scripture while their own spiritual leadership lies inept and inactive proclaiming that they no longer need to search out truth in scripture because Wierwille already had the truth revealed to him starting with his fabricated snow on the gas pump story. And they are making decisions not based upon scripture but hiding out in gray areas of scripture making decisions based upon legal counsel. This is why churches don't have "cop-outs". They have categories they call "unchurched", and others that may have found something else in the body of Christ more suitable for them and their family. And the R&R group, CFM, even the old hucksters like JAL, all of them are building a profession upon a house of cards. Trying to put new wine in old wineskins as so many on here have adeptly pointed out.

It IS redundant, mostly because you are using the same words. You could always vary your vocabulary: Pshawwww Pfffffftttttt Add "in the magical land of make-believe" at the end of random sentences Horse Apples Imagi-nary in Trump falsetto See? Not redundant at all. LOL.

D@nm son, that's some Ephesians up in here!!!! Rocky, Twinky, the rest of the spotters augmenting ideas. Hit me like an excellent cup of coffee, refreshing!!!!!! I do think that feel of the one body unity is as you guys are digging it out as opposed to some lock-step Gestapo unity as attempted to being lived by the Way. Oh, and regarding the one body, Wierwille was a pimple on Christ's @$$, barely worthy of discussion in comparison to Ephesians concepts. But glad we are, because it's an awesome discussion.

Yessssss! A weed "garden" geared towards the production of one specific type of flower.... The Narcissist Red Rose! And surrounding dandelions! LOL Excellent thread skyrider!!!!!!! Your systematic expose of VP the Narcissist through the eyes of realism and details in Mrs. VP's book are truly enlightening!!!!! Your summation of decades of Way bruhaha into core element summaries and paragraphs are fantastic! This type of thing is a resource out there so the young don't have to fall into the same traps if they so choose to educate themselves and obtain wisdom!!!!

Hey T-Bone, Cool thoughts. I enjoy reading your posts they are full of deep thought. I also personally enjoy when deep thought leaves to simple conclusions. Sometimes truth is complicated, but often times truth is simple and humans are what are complicated. I like your 2 points on approaching scripture. On the point 1 I also have adopted more of that viewpoint. It more closely aligns with Occam's Razor which to me when we are approaching text with that many variants is a reasonable place to start. What is the most obvious meaning of the text? Could we break that down further? What are possible meanings of the text? Usually won't they classify into just a few buckets at most? Concordances and lexicons attempt this called "usages". But it's real hard to track through all of the fragments of texts they are finding in different languages - Greek and Aramaic and derivatives. And at its extreme I think you have the "How the Word Interprets Itself" types of teachings and approaches like Bullinger originated and VP purloined and we used in the Way, where we are closer to feeding the text through machine language analysis and coming up with patterns than we are looking at it from the perspective of how it impacts humans. Bu when you consider the Way to be a training ground for Scribes and Pharisees it all starts to make more sense. That is where your Point 2 comes in, and I think for myself and most people whether they want to admit it or not there is an element of a "common sense" evaluator that we have in our makeup. "Does it make sense to me?" is good from a number of perspectives. First, as a personal faith, if it doesn't then how can you commit to it? So in a way we can view this in a personal scriptural journey perspective. Next, it places some form of a constraint upon extreme behavior. But of course where there is constraint there is a cult to test that constraint. But what about collectives? Churches? Fellowships? Body of Christ? Can "we" understand scripture together? In law they have a constraint where they evaluate things against what they would consider the "average man". What would an "average man" do in this situation? What is an "average" response? So I think to come to a collective agreement in Point 2 we are going to have to start talking in terms of shades as opposed to extremes.

I have been thinking more about this topic. Do I agree with the mainstream Christianity assessment that there are only prophets in the OT and the apostles were Peter and Paul, and the others describe functions not gifts? I'm not 100% sold on that. I do see in the scriptures special energizings by God. What I don't see is the attached pyramid scheme sold by the Way International in conjunction with it. For example, those apostles and prophets along with the helps and governments "specialty" lifetime functions in positions the Way does. Tiered salary structures according to the supposed importance of the gift, like corporate business. Machiavellian activity. Basically the type of morality that I would see Jesus confronting by kicking over the money tables in the temple. People selling their souls for a morsel of bread. Former janitors and window cleaners now large and in charge and their head inflates and what becomes most important is not "it is written", it is "it is position". Policies are decided according to quotes from "Louis Columbo 3:16" (RFR's BFF lawsuit lawyer) as opposed to scriptural teachings by Jesus or Paul or Peter. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". Rom. 11:29 IMO there is a tinfoil hat version of understanding this verse, and a logical common man way of understanding this verse: Tinfoil: I was subjected to a corporate hazing for 4 years that left me with a nametag and an assignment and a position and a title. I heard prophecy spoken over me that contained some qualities. Thus I am entitled to a ring for people to kiss, a position, a salary, and servants. Thus throughout my lifetime I will also be entitled to all of this, and people are responsible to provide it for me. I am cemented in to a corporate cultural hierarchy of absolute obedience, or shunning if I break ranks. Common Logic: I grew up with natural talents in areas. Or at least one, and hopes to have talent in one other or something. God helps me develop them and energizes me and inspires me as I do. As I grow older these don't depart. I do believe in special energizings of God in individuals. I don't believe in pyramid schemes.

What if Wierwille just misunderstood the snow on the gas pumps revelation? What if God was really saying, Wierwille, I need to teach you the Word, because your convoluted logic on it is like nobody I've ever seen since the first century? No?

I remember some of this teaching on helps and governments surrounding Rosalie's takeover / installation. This also was used as an excuse why the Board of Dummies at HQ doesn't travel much but sits there planning more events at HQ where they don't have to move again.

Yes I agree semantics and vocabulary are some differences. The whole theopneustos thing - God breathed like in the Way - to me it obscures little nuances like that which you are speaking of. To me that interpretation escalates things into an "all or nothing" type of mindset with scripture and communication from God. Every jot and tittle of Paul is "thus saith the Lord" or it isn't. To me that leads to a scribe mindset that I feel is best described by Ralph Waldo Emerson in his essay on Self-Reliance when he said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". And people with dictionaries of languages they never grew up speaking become ensconced within a mental maze of their own making. Yes, inspiration and revelation. I use these words more freely now like you would read about in literature or an article, as opposed to being bound to Wierwillian paint-by-numbers holy spirit manifestation definitions. And I view Paul's writings more in freer terms as well. So as far as me writing books, what would inspire me to write a book would be any of a number of things, all of which are not God telling me to do so. Penworks book Undertow - I read some of what would be considered her inspiration for writing that book. Much of it as writings here are motivated by personal recovery. Nowhere did I read anything in her motivation about God commanding her to write a book or anything. But did God inspire her as she wrote it? I believe so. Did it happen differently for Paul? A heavenly vision appeared and an audible voice said "Paul write to the churches. Here's what to say .... Is your shorthand fast enough to keep up" ? I just don't think it works that way, no offense Joseph Smith and angel Moroni. Humans are made up the same way now as they were when this stuff was written.

it is a seeming dichotomy - language of freedom, but there language of control across an extreme personal boundary like grooming choices. Paul in one letter made a distinction between speaking by permission or by command. Separating them out would be futile verse by verse. However to me I find that as sufficient evidence that Paul says of himself that sometimes in his writings it's Paul, and other times he feels it is God inspiring him to write things.

Yes I'm with you on that, and even examining what they supposedly are when they are "once given". It was always taught the gift was to the church. But in the Way it wasn't so much what was taught as it was what was modeled behind the scenes. I mean "pastors" take care of the flock - it's an inherent definition. Even tent evangelists like Billy Graham were known and what they did - give a powerful emotional sermon and bring people to Christ then turn them over to a local church for ongoing growth. Teachers is a generic word - could convey anything from public education to training settings to other education. Prophets are largely looked upon as OT figures by most modern Christians. And the apostles as the first few heads of the church. But VP had to revitalize it all and re-teach all these ministries - now for an example, an apostle just wasn't Paul the one born out of time or Peter, but a generic definition of "one who brings new light to their generation". Well, who did VP have in mind to fill those shoes with a snow-on-the-gas-pumps story? Make him unique, like Paul. Better than all the other generic Christian brands. I had even heard talk about how VP was so unique he was the only one that fulfilled all 5 gift ministries or operated them or had them or whatever.

Well stop me from filling in the blanks and tell me why it is you think God wants us Christians in modern times (as I believe the intent of the letters was to reach us also) to be aware that shaved head temple harlots aren't naturally attractive so grow your hair out? And men don't be a cue ball?