chockfull

I've got to tell you about this guy I was "witnessing to" or whatever it is you want to call it one time. I was having lunch with this Moslem - very kind soul. The conversation came around to God and religion. I was describing to him my faith. He related to me some of his faith, and where it led him. One very interesting path is that he received a telephone call from someone from his home country (Iran) for charitable donations. Instead of blowing them off or blindly giving money he decided he wanted to be involved. The charity was one that placed homeless children from back home in Iran with families living in the United States that were seeking adoption. So he became involved, ended up donating quite a bit of money and was personally responsible for placing 6 children in adopting families. We had a great time discussing God, truth, man, religion over smoked meat in Montreal Quebec. He told me he was always skeptical of those whose livelihood was enhanced by the growth of their flock, as they were a biased witness. He equated it to a company he was working for giving an opinion about it. Was I being an ambassador for Christ towards him, or was he being an ambassador for Mohammed towards me? Or both? What I do know is I seldom remember a man's words, but I always remember a man's actions. This man's actions helped me remember his words.

A few things start to emerge looking at all this confusion over the term "household" practically and people trying to figure it out from a cult background. One of the things to consider is that cults damage boundaries. Boundaries involve emotional intelligence and how you interact with other human beings. So people get stuck not seeing their own blindness.

It's OK to have a title. It's OK to not have a title. And it's OK to lie about the fact that to you it's not OK to not have a title. But that's OK too, because it's really not your ego that is causing you to do that, it's audible revelation.

Ah yes - the business of Way splinters. We've seen so many of these start up and fizzle out, I think we should help out by posting up some "franchise guidelines" for a Way splinter. HOW TO START YOUR Mc-Way Ministry franchise (T) (C) (R) Common elements: 501c - because you worked hard to take all those people away from the Way with their 15% conditioned giving. You should be rewarded for it, not the government. Board of Directors - you were subject to their petty displays of power for 30 years, now its your turn. It's just how it's done in the world. Every non profit has one so we do to. Who will be in charge? Why the person who got the revelation from God, right? Foundational Class - with all the examples of how not to do it from the Way, you've got a better idea. And revelation. Remaking a foundational class is the primary "intellectual property" that you can claim that is different from the splinter down the road started by your Corpse brother. IP is worth tangible money. And is proof you should be president and in control. Which is the ultimate goal. You're not greedy. You're just following God's orders. It's God who wants you in that President's position. Groupies - there has to be at least one strong set of groupies to start your cult from. You can live by them, and they will provide enough money for a meager subsistence until you can really get your YouTube channel and subscribers to your teachings going and off the ground YouTube channel - or Vimeo / audio repository - anywhere you can point people to with a minimal amount of effort to get them to listen to your teachings. You see the teachings are like a product, which produces a return over and over, as opposed to service, which only produces one return right now. Good teachings drive revenue. Website - if things are going to progress beyond the "groupies" stage, there has to be a central place to post teachings, itineraries and events, and to collect money. Itineraries - the apostle Paul did it. I'm just like him spreading the Word according to that audible revelation. Bands have to go on the road to make money - can't just rely on album sales in a modern world. So do modern apostles. Hit the road, go teach a class, establish fellowships. Then you can just link them back to your website, and they can be thoroughly nourished as a Christian by your YouTube channel. And send in money Organizational structure - why now that it's been a couple years, we need contacts in every state, and a regional leadership structure, just like the Way Tree because that's all we have learned to do by example and functionally. There we have it. A business plan. A franchise plan. Plug in your name. Plug in your ego. All set to go. All you really need is your own "snow on the gas pumps" story. You can do it. You've got McJesus.

Sounds like you are describing a temporary alliance which would explain the common Feb 2018 leadership event. What besides money keeps these knuckle heads from functioning interdenominationally as opposed to cult modus operandi?

Or is there a merger in process? I mean they have to determine if helping the household means oikeos only household, oikeos plus RnR, or what household it is they mean exactly LOL

The content, yes. The delivery is much more authoritative sounding. That and his energy is really popular with some. Annoys the living daylights out of me, but that's just flesh stuff. You know, OIKEOS to me is looking like "household" brand on the outside, but castaway thinking on the inside.

And the teaching goes pretty rapidly south. "It's about obeying God first, individually, and then helping others in the household of faith do better. Titles aren't bad. It's OK to have a title. It's OK not to have a title. The key is what you do with your heart and mind." You see, for Rico, like for VPW, teaching solves everything. One of the first apologia teachings here, to sum up, is mildly introducing the fact that structure is good. It's OK to have titles. You know, like the ones we are making up in our new ministry, with me as President. You see, that title is OK, because it's not the title itself, but what you do with it. Rico is sounding more and more like his father in the Word.

So I look at things like this: https://oikeos.org/teachings/series/mystery-minded-leadership-conference/ Branded oikeos. February 2018 Taught by Moynihan, Horney, Fort, Ryan, Rico So to me it looks like these guys are teaming up and forming a ministry. But maybe you know more.

I wonder if the walls there echo as loud as the halls in the poem that VPW plagiarized from someone and entitled "The Way Corps"?????

This is truly what I think the scripture means in I Timothy 1:19 when it speaks of: holding faith and a good conscience, which some, having cast away, have caused a shipwreck concerning the faith, That is from the Berean Literal Bible translation. I take both words faith there to mean the "family faith" or a figure of speech metonymy representing the collective body of Christ on earth today. The actions of these groups fulfill these scriptures. Christians, who are according to the extended figure, traveling across the high seas of life in a large boat. Together. In the same boat. The actions of some who abandon concerns for the entire body of Christ, and the greater good of the ship, cast off in a lifeboat gathering whoever they can touch close to them. They abandon their good conscience, cast it away along with their concerns for the greater good of the body. They cause themselves and those around them a shipwreck. Where they end up after the shipwreck is as castaways. On an island. With a bandleader. Now to this point I have been serious. But fair warning. That is going to change. I'll entitle the following "observations from the peanut gallery" and it will include humor. Why? Because life is better with humor LOL. But Skipper, it was only supposed to be a 3 hour tour. Shut up Gilligan Can we audition for Jeff Probst "Survivor" series on television after this with our built skillsets? How many episodes have I watched of Gilligan's Island involving failed attempts to get off the island once you are on? Hmmmm

So Rico has developed 2 classes. His 2018 and 2019 calendar show him traveling around the countryside teaching these 2 classes. The places he is going to teach these classes at least to me look like they are the physical locations where the R & R "board of directors" live. He has a huge ego that will not permit sharing the spotlight with others. This is most directly evidenced by his actions leaving the Way. He got revelation from God according to his story to go in and confront Rosalie and tell her that she was to step down and that he Rico was to be President, according to God. According to Rosalie, he was a security risk by that statement who she had removed from the premises and kicked him out of the Way. The R&R "BOD" shows not much initiative. They pass around a weekly teaching calendar, control only who teaches, are not driving towards a theme. Rico shows more leadership. He actually developed content that is different than the Way. He had an annual conference on "Hope". He has his own subgroup of leaders there it looks like, other people I know with less prominent names than the R&R "BOD". But here is the rub. This is all for filthy lucre. How can I say that? Look at the ego, the lust for power. Rico couldn't stomach being a "yes ma'am" for decades he finally lost it and blew up. Now post Way what is he doing? Integrating with the rest of the body of Christ, or magnifying his ego to produce his own intellectual property, start up a 501c organization, put together bylaws, institute a board of directors of wihch he will be President? It is not enough to say that the household of God teaching by the Way is anti-Christ. Why? Because you have to actually live it too. That is where the power lies. If you say the household of God includes all Christians, but your manner of living and leadership says by your fruits that it does not, then you are at fault. Even more extreme is the lust to be at the top position answering only to God. Just like Rosalie; Just like Craig. Just like Victor Paul Wierwille. Your mentors.

Looking at it now. Actually this looks like where the R and R group is going. When you look at the media links this is basically looking like Rico has teamed up with the group on video and they have a new ministry complete with a BOD, officers, and salaries. Looking at their doctrine they basically changed one small thing about the household of God consisting of all Christians yet they are functioning in the exact same fashion the Way does except with elections. They accept donations and pay salaries. This is absolutely everything we have said about this group and more.

So they restrict access to the website which contains links to their teachings to those that join them on a FB group? Why not expose such research revelations that Steve Longley had to the world like being likeminded with Christ? Yes that is a revelation coming out of the Way cult, but not for the vast majority of Christians on the earth who don't actually remove Christ's presence and replace him with "the Word" meaning a scripture commentary by a dictator. Perhaps those without Way-specific indoctrination might not find them impressive? Or they want to track who watches them? I mean the revelation or what not that Rosalie closed the research department is really only an outward declaration finally of what was going on all along. The fewer they have in research, the less can call into question Wierwille's shoddy research, and the less control will wander away from those who whitewash Wierwille's image and tend to the millions left post-mortem from his global flim-flam artistry. Undertow details the pettiness of Wierwille's research team in his heyday. In his decline it got worse. Many egos with many fingers in the pie. Under LCM, it was further demolished - the Okie hated the words GMIR for instance. Dumb down the research, and present it with lots of pictures like the remake of the PLAF class - mix up the order add in some drama, you know. WAP 1. Research department then consisted of notes on toilet paper passed between LCM and Wayne Clapp. Wayne made it farther in school. So Wayne was excommunicated by Rosie for being an absentminded babysitter, and went off with other maltreated to form CFFM. After Corpse slaves were forced to teach WAP 1a, they remade WAP 2 with Steve Longley, John Rupp, and David Chavoustie. David Chavoustie at this time was the new research department. Part time. Since then it closed. So now the Way is an Ex-Research, Teaching, and Limited Fellowship ministry, depending on your financial debt status. Born Again To Serve, part 2. LOL.

filthy lucre is a hard one to explain - KJV term. practically it may have zero to do with actual finances, but more to do with perceived power and influence. in whatever circle you travel someone who is able to show influence over larger numbers has more perceived power, and can come to a point where they are reluctant to give it up.

All right so I'm back to answering this post. My "interaction" with them consists of going through this thread, listening to their video and listening to it, and then comparing what I hear now with all of those people and what I knew of them over the years I actually worked with them face to face, what they shared, how they acted, the people they abused, how they covered up things, how they carried on their own acts independent of VPW and LCM. I find what they say now to be kind lacking much "congruity". That is all I am willing to say at this point without going into extreme detail about the evil in people's past. Suffice it to say there is cause for alarm and concern. Their lust for position they are displaying now is evident throughout their actions. For instance, why did the "council of 7 or whatever that appeared in that video even need to appear at all?" Plenty have confronted the Way, left the way, sent letters in. What was the purpose behind that pomp and circumstance video that contained a whole lot of nothing? So that everyone watching would see who their new leadership would be. That is the group that is planning out what is taught on Sundays, right? They are the central group to whom people ask questions about the Bible? Correct? We've invited that specific group to come interact here - and they have to a person declined. Why? I say they accept no other Christian input, and you are climbing all over me because you consider yourself to be "other Christian input". But consider for a minute, are they interacting with other Christians regularly? Or does the "council" just meet regularly and plan weekly teachings? Do they meet with local Christian pastors? Why not? Most other churches do. What specific other groups of Christians outside of those under their influence do they interact with regularly? I would say they appease you and do what they want. The matter you brought up was not that significant. Why are they acting "separatist" from the rest of the body of Christ to include even those who left the Way a decade before them? Of course, they aren't going to tell anyone what to do, and just teach the Bible. Just like Wayne Clapp and John Shroyer after the Way discarded them. CFF was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, all the good Bible and none of the rules. Woohoo! Wayne would fly around the country and meet with whoever wanted to, be loving, whatever. Recruitment. Then sign you up for running one of their fellowships. They tried to poach off disgruntled Way followers for a decade or more, and now have turned into kind of like a local church combined with a Way Tree structure with home fellowships over the country. Their Sunday teachings drive everything. I know of a half a dozen similar organizations and fellowships that exist within 100 square miles of where I currently live. People who split off from the Way, carved out their own little Private Idaho, and have run fellowships or "ministries" since then. All have one thing in common - the unreasonable adoration of Victor Paul Wierwille and his works. Some of this is how I am sure of what they are doing. None of it is presumptuous, other than presuming more details from history than you are aware of.

So who exactly is the "us" and "them" here in this? The R&R group consisting of whom exactly? The characters in the video? The extended cast of characters who signed the document and now are no longer welcome at the Way? Some anonymous body I am unaware of who go to R&R fellowships? Us consists of whom? Those potential customers on the airwaves? Those attending fellowships? Actually they don't have a funny way of going about it. They have a predictable way of going about it. So since you brought it up, what was the disagreement you presented? What group discussed it? An Ecclesiastical council from varying Christian backgrounds? A group of local pastors in your area? The "they" you mentioned have had "a few teachings" already on this? What were these teachings? Where were they presented? A lot of what I "claim" is simple conclusion from what the Bible says about faith and shipwrecks and such.

Are you their apologist on Greasespot? Not one of them has the fortitude to come here and interact, they meet behind the scenes to plan teachings and annual gatherings. The are not interested in other Christian input they know it all and have convinced themselves of their “calling”. They behave in exactly the same fashion as every other splinter group has over the last decade. A behind the scenes BOD. Whether they call themselves that or not, people learn from what they are exposed to. They behave this way because they have not learned to behave differently. Their actions and lack of them expose the gain or filthy lucre in their hearts to be over you as they were in the past. It is their lust for position. The lust for position and function in a certain fashion they cannot curtail any more than a crack habit. This is the old wineskin. It is the one their pride and arrogance can’t allow them to get rid of regardless of money involved. Accepting that major premise from them is a bribe.

So I think this latest twist in the topic is a slippery slope. The things I saw when I was in were not enough to trigger my attention, but more like foreshadowing. For me. Can I judge another’s heart and blindness? No only God can. I can share mine. When you see a pattern of 20 years passing with people climbing ladders promoting themselves and living the perks without whistle blowing you just have to question it. Did I whistle blow? I spoke up about what I saw. I endured retaliation. Am I better? I don’t know. What do you do about it once you do see though? Lay another brick onto the Tower of Babel? Build your own unique one? Or tear it down and help build one that doesn’t magnify man or the devil? Those are the major questions which remain in my mind about this topic and this group.

Why yes, of course. I think we should bring in an expert witness on Biblical motivation to help us sort this out....

The families they pay minimum wage to live in a mobile home park they call "units". They have strict living rules or "housing" rules governed I think by Donna last I heard where it's not even one family to a unit (read double-wide mobile home), but two families share a "unit" each with their own bedroom and sharing the common living room and kitchen area. Families with 3? or more kids can have their own "unit". People there obey not only the myriad numbers of rules established in every little area of HQ, as it has been ruled by an over-the-top OCD micromanager for decades, but also the unwritten rules which are even more sinister, keeping people in bondage with bribery, hoping for the favor of the elite to raise them out of minimum wage doldrums with somewhat of a future. Then after they've been on staff for more than 5 years there is an extreme fear handcuff that keeps them compliant and smiling little sheep. No job at the Way has anything like a title that will prepare you for something in the real world. As an extreme example of that, a current Board of Dummy member, JR, a few years back peeved at being passed over for the top position in spite of his valiant efforts to reframe his personality as a "yes maam" posted up his resume on a public site. Grandiose titles, ridiculous accomplishments, and exactly how many phone calls do you think he received for job interviews? Zero? Then there is also the case of the demoted dummy member VP who now works in his own collection firm agency. Yes they are cheaper than h3ll and it is a story of a narcissist sex offender starting a cult and amassing like $80M to date with all of the frugality you get out of mistreating your employees.

Several on here have remarked upon stumbling across salary levels for the upper positions in the Way at HQ, and how dramatically different say a President's Cabinet member's salary is from say a Department coordinator only. Most positions at the Way are minimum wage level from reports. People live in trailers or a mobile home park or a dorm. Anyone with any money (family / previous career) lives in town. Several changes were forced with the lawsuits. Hours changed then at the Way going from an indefinite expectation to 40 hrs a week plus a limited amount of a volunteer time. This was forced by legal exposure. In the last 10 years reports I've seen are consistent with a lot of open positions at HQ, needing to do advertising in fellowships about it, then plenty of stories of people trying to go there and fill the positions and failing, either due to the culture there, or just not being able to take it being in that environment for very long. There are consistent needs, not enough consistent applicants, and a high number of people failing even of those who do apply and take the jobs. No, do not entertain any expectations of the Way taking care of you in the future due to thankfulness for your service. No, their attitude is the Way owes you nothing but you owe the Way everything because the "greatness of the Word" they taught you saved your life. They suck.

Good idea. And with an overall retention rate of less than 5% you could enter it in a new page called "Cults That Suck". To rank way under the Mormons, and Scientology in effectiveness. Down just under the Jehovah's Witnesses stacked ranked by the poor treatment of followers. I mean when you think about it, with that kind of retention rate the Way International ranks just slightly above Jim Jones and Jonestown. There were a couple kids there that ran into the woods and didn't get shot or drink the kool-aid.

Being on staff is the prime location to be under the thumb of micromanagers. That would also be an area where it would be telling to publish numbers on the average duration of a staff assignment. From most recent information, there is not much longevity in those positions even though there aren't enough people to apply for them. This reeks of a culture where people bite and devour one another, as predicted in scripture.

yeah sucks but on the plus side it's probably the Board of Dummies or a direct delegate you are competitively editing against LOL. my advice is change your tune on the edit position - let them have their descriptive title like the other cults. get some edits in that show the truth in other ways, like the suggestion to include that many consider it a cult. Also, you can talk about retention rates, there is enough published data to show that the Way's long term overall retention rate of followers has to be under 5% for sure. And other ways to get the truth in there. Vandalism. Hilarious. I can just see the dummies discussion about how it's just the same as spray-painting their stupid sign on the road. By those standards Jesus was a vandal so you are in good company.