chockfull

I can only speak for myself. The good GSC has done for me is to provide insight into thousands of accounts and details previously hidden to me due to the whitewashing and silencing efforts of TWI. It has shown me I’m not alone fighting the personal evil impact of that cult on my life. It provides a mostly uncensored forum for exploring many things affecting life and recovery from a cult. Theology, philosophy, interpretation of scriptures, emotional intelligence, resilience, cult characteristics and recovery, psychology, self care, and music. I guess ymmv.

Yes agree and personally I enjoy kicking around concepts with you my brother.

Well, maybe I just don’t agree with 100 percent of your statements as opposed to being deliberately ignorant. I personally don’t have blood relatives in. I don’t seek to harm indiscriminately. I don’t really agree with your generalizations. I do have ex friends in. They pretty much treat me pretty similar to the judgment and shunning that I would experience from blood relatives in. If I post a statement in good faith, and a blood relative in TWI uses it for nefarious purposes, what recourse do I have? Be hyper sensitive and never post anything negative for fear of it being misused? I cannot support that. Sorry.

One of the most evil things about these cults is the disciplinary methods and tactics they use. This is a study in gaslighting. Here is an account of one in the Mormon church:

What are these unintended consequences? Enquiring hindrance site posters want to know. Wait are you calling yourself out here?

Sure. I will call out what he does as well. TWI has on its main website a statement of beliefs that masks what they really do believe and teach by structuring the statement similar to a denominations statement, including the same main elements that they do, and masks the major doctrinal differences with mainstream Christianity. This is deceptive. This draws the naïve Christian in. This isn’t usually addressed anywhere. Im not signing people up for his class. I took it though for personal purposes. I also am thankful for the discussion on GSC.

I left for a while a couple of times. One was a few years break. I post here to interact with you guys and for community service. I get a lot more perspective and different viewpoints here. It’s better we aren’t the same borg we once were.

Yeah I’m with you on that. It is kind of an interesting discussion https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy there’s a little more on it - the sides seem to differ over “same substance” and whether or not Jesus had an origin. The councils were voting to unify a position and one side lost and disappeared. Maybe VPs first century schtick had to do with resurrecting what he considered the right side of that argument. I think they were arguing over different views of the elephant. They were the best of times. They were the worst of times. Lol.

Yes I would say his approach was to take the “statement of beliefs” posted on the main Way website and dissecting them by showing how what is portrayed there means something different to a Christian. I do remember him spending time on the Trinity as the Way being against any aspect of that is not really mentioned in the statement of beliefs. I don’t think he was trying to summarily address the JCNG topic - it was evident the seminary he went to taught much of the doctrinal position from familiarity with first century authors. I do find VPs works problematic with how he portrays early Christians. There are many scriptures handled poorly on that topic. On your examples above, first adam last adam seems figurative not literal, as is Passover Lamb. I don’t agree with the VP logic there that a figurative reference has to logically apply through every comparison aspect. Jesus did not know the time of his passing other than all of the Gethsemane accounts of preparing for his death. He also says not my will but thine be done. So there is a distinction for sure. But I have come to the point where dualism is present in life and a dual natured Christ makes sense to me. Who was doubting Thomas referring to after he put his hands in Jesus side? My Lord and God. I don’t agree with some BS interpretation of that where it means something by completely different due to “orientalisms”. Figurative language only colors it does not replace and negate logic. So I am done trying to force square trinity or no trinity round pegs into square holes. But that’s a sidetrack - back to the guy. He is just a young teacher in a Baptist church doing an online class mostly for the people in his church. He has helped me in certain vision aspects but I’m not selling him as snake oil either.

For the LDS their functioning is different than the JWs. People seldom exodus out officially they just stop coming to meetings and keep their names on the books. For the LDS it looks better on their books to claim 17m members worldwide as opposed to the more accurate estimates of maybe 4m actively attending meetings. Those doing the temple ceremonies are far less even among so called actives. The JWs are polar opposite. Their 7m members or whatever they claim are lite as an estimate. They only put people on the books who are actively serving as “publishers” meaning the cart work and D2D.

Someone’s mom on exmormon just decided to leave over this. Yes the fine is nothing. What it exposes is bigger.

The legal consequences will pale in comparison to the impact to the average poor Mormon who will think twice about sending a tithe in to a corrupt organization. The PR image will have far worse impact.

The Mormons are facing charges from their $32 billion dollar shell company: https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35 This highlights the pattern of cults to hoard money centrally and hide it. The shell corporations have no other function than to obscure the reporting on them both to authorities and to church members. TWI also has an investment fund or funds, mostly comprised of the $65 million left over from the exodus. Rosalie in the past has gone on in leaders meetings about how she wanted to have HQ as self sufficient and not dependent on the offerings of members. So the investments would cover the staff and upkeep expense. I don’t know how well that is working out now. Shell funds and free labor. And mandated tithing. Those are the elements that keep cults functioning.

I would propose that the main reason for every single one of these exodus scenarios is due to TWI not caring one iota about the quality of life of their employees and volunteers. Leaders continue to make hype driven and Lifeline statement driven decisions that benefit the numbers and the little Napoleons and their fiefdoms throughout TWI but make life a tad bit worse every decision for the employee and follower. Most of the exodus scenarios came to a head by lifestyles and decisions that were so markedly bad they almost defy logical reason. Then you have a surplus of Pharisees for every little Napoleon position that opens up, and the hype train in full effect around those positions. This is 100 percent the exact same scenario that arises in the other larger cults. The adoration and adulation associated with “major” positions as well as the financial stipends (search threads on salaries for top cabinet positions in rural Ohio). It is the scenario in 1 Samuel 2 where they were so destitute they begged to be put in a priests office for a morsel of bread. And discussions with these types gravitate towards Mike type discussions. With the ever more demanding outreach pushes with less and less positive results, with tyrannical policies that prevent home and business ownership and prevent education on student loans like all of the US is set up for, the TWI congregation is broke and lacking education and skill sets. Mostly due to the false teachings and rules in TWI. So it is a self perpetuating problem. I personally would prefer one day of freedom over a decade treated like a top leader in TWI. Despite all the programming towards that end throughout my younger years in my 20s.

You know R for me interestingly enough resilience has kind of corresponded with more of an investigation into emotional intelligence which I had little of as a young man. The two components of EI as paraphrasing self knowledge and community knowledge. So I’ve kind of had to dig down into self and my motivations habits patterns drivers. Then next trying to understand my world I live in. The term “research is me-search” really connects. Researching myself standalone. Researching my world with me in it interacting. I do not find it valuable at all limiting input to a certain set of materials that came along with a class. No directly opposite I find a broader reading strengthens my borders and helps vastly for its intended purpose - collective learning and growth. That’s what interacting with you all helps with - collective understanding of our world and the times we live in. As well as interesting self exploration side roads.

One of the financial numbers as you know that was made public was the around $65 million in assets that is owned by TWI. A lot of this was left from the around 80% mass exodus surrounding VPs death. Much like the multi billion Mormon slush fund, TWI also made money in investments off of some of that money. Some of those assets would also be how they afford retirement and health benefits also. Two campuses were sold off - Indiana and Emporia. So the $$$$ from those assets are around also. Money in cults flows upwards. Restrictions to life in cults flow downwards.

It really cannot be overstated the value of a connected group of people questioning the validity of the organization. I have taken the time also to join some Reddit channels of ex cult members and the vibe is similar. Questioning facts and teachings, holding leaders accountable for present and past decisions and ensuring dishonesty is highlighted. The Mormons have a big scandal going on because they use a bunch of shell corporations to hide financial activity just like the big mob families do. That’s where all the tithes go. All of the top leadership of that org is multi millionaire rich due to hidden stipends. Highlighted on /r exmormon. The JWs have a scandal around little kids. They hush booted a GB member with no explanation. Highlighted on /r exjw. Those channels all deal with family issues of shunning and acceptance of various things, pressure and guilt, and factual sources for issues. There is a /r cults also that has a broader reach. One of the tricks of cults is isolating information to make it feel like nobody deals with anything similar, that your history is unique and shameful because of your lack of obedience and believing. In reality they all play a similar version of 3 card Monte. Switching the expected for an unexpected loss and blaming the person. Broadening my horizons help me to see the cheap power plays for what they are and to expose them. I too hope Paul and Fern have a better life than their past and am sure they will. Obviously their nda prevents further discussion of anything from them but I hope they got enough of a settlement to secure their family’s future, that was in jeopardy because of the actions of the Way International.

In the soul of every human is the desire to examine one’s own existence, to align their ideals with practices and to give meaning to their own life. A person needs the time to be spiritual. They need time for loved ones closest. They need time for community. They need time to work. They need time to relax and escape in hobbies. Religion especially religious organizations tend to blur the lines between all these categories and blend them together like a large crappy pesto. You can be spiritual by serving they say. Your loved ones can move the word with you they say. Work isn’t your true calling your free volunteer position is they say. Don’t spend your time and money on second rate causes they say. I am not even talking about Christianity exclusively here. The same abuse of people toward a cause and lack of logic and compassion and understanding exists in all modern cults and most hardcore intense religions as well. If your pesto has more than 2 or three simple high quality ingredients then it is gonna taste like a dirty football field. And boundaries will be overstepped. And life increases suckage. My spiritual time is me time. My time with loved ones is not to be usurped by any group of idiots with goals. My work deserves my full commitment and having someone who feels they have a calling or talent in a profession. My hobbies help expand my world and experience help me rest and help me connect with people all over the world. As opposed to your first rate sitting on a phone hookup? My life quality increases in the little things. And church fits in there. But not as the diva who needs 100 percent spotlight 24/7. She can learn to do her own nails.

Free labor is the currency of cults. They spend it freely.

Nice personal testimony on this thread - awesome! On the God breathed scripture topic and canon here’s a monkey wrench. Did God breathe during Jesus teenage years? https://ocoy.org/original-christianity/the-christ-of-india/ Did Jesus travel to the east? I am bringing this up due to intense conversations with a close friend of mine about Christianity and Buddhism. He was raised Buddhist in China. He sees elements of eastern teaching in Jesus manner, words, prayers and teachings. What do you think?

The Christian church I grew up in (middle and high school) basically was a full court basketball court with a stage at the end. They had stacked chairs along the walls that were reset every Sunday. The church was built to serve the community first, then denominational needs second. I revisited the church within the last 5 years. It was too late to reconnect with people I knew - they were kind but I had made my choices and my high school best friend who was the pastors son had died in a car crash a decade ago. The pastor also had passed. What I saw was that all of their office buildings had scheduled meetings for probably 15 to 20 different community interest groups who all used their offices for free for meetings. That was still functioning according to the original idea when I was there. I like your ideas about a modern approach to a church. That would be a great church plant idea to function with less activity and more depth. Calvary chapel has an interesting approach. They do only exegetical teachings not topical. So basically the sermon titles are Bible books or sections only. I enjoy those services occasionally. Also the music ministries out there in churches are talented. One of the churches I occasionally attend has a Juliard grad leading up the music ministry and he is full of innovative ideas. He leads the worship service basically except the sermon part. I think freedom in Christ is kind of like freedom in America. It is an ideal and an idea but you have to decide how you will live those freedoms for yourself. It’s certainly is NOT a meal ticket for a shyster. Although too often in modern cults and modern churches it is exactly that. Take your freedom seriously and exercise it because when you don’t that is when you forfeit your freedom.

So this is a much younger pastor. He describes in the first two intro videos about actually attending a Way fellowship and not being impressed. But not a PFAL grad or anything. He maybe has been a teaching pastor for less than 5 years? I liked his approach of going off the “statement of beliefs” of TWI and digging in to how they are masked to look the same as denominations. On the early history I think it was JCNG that depicted some kind of battle where the trinitarians won out at Nicea or something like that. I welcomed a fresh perspective from someone who actually studied that at an accredited school for pastors. And I would concur with him not Wierwille that the majority of first century writers around the church talked of Christs divinity. There was one writer they rejected for one God one son of God views. I’m not buying this teachers perspective 100 percent either but I think JCNG has the shoddy research. He wasn’t as familiar with TWI as we are so he got some things wrong. But I liked the overall teaching package he put together for a part of his congregation - educating them on cults and covering so many in detail. I’m not grading him just enjoying a different perspective. I was attracted to the fact he chose TWI to cover first over the bigger three cults. After sitting through his entire class I thought he did well at pointing out standard Christian belief versus cult belief. But he is not perfect or a peer journal level writer or teacher.

Yes well the non accredited nature of the so called college the way corpse was built upon had very few educated people. There were virtually no PhD or ThD doctorate holders from accredited programs on staff. Don Wierwille had I believe a doctorate in education - the thesis he presented for it was on the transformation of emporia. The people with more advanced degrees were in non-related fields. VPs “doctoral college” were a couple of guys in a house with mail in essay assignments. So the founder wasn’t supportive of giving any credence to others with legit doctorates with respect to allowing them space to function. Every single case of more experience and advanced degrees ran up against the stone wall of VPs ego and thus parted ways. So the essence of what you have in the trained leadership is a bunch of non accredited teachers not holding legitimate classes with peer reviewed educational material but rather and endless re-search into trying to find some greater meaning in sermon notes in collaterals. The classes are Collateral Brainwash 101, 102, and the 102 lab - Lightbearers put a PFlappy class together in a week or two. The output of that is a bunch of blind leading the blind hardcore salesmen of a product, not an educated spiritual person in the sense of fulfilling any standard curriculum for a bachelors in theology. Putting any of that on any resume and any other Christian org will ghost you immediately and your presumed accomplishments are met at best with a puzzled look and a question how any of that might apply in the real world.

Yes cool. I read the article on sealioning. What I think I see is instead of the purpose and intent being to obscure, like I feel with Mike, the vibe from Bolsh to me is trying on different tangents to help define and solidify his own reality. I may be off base. That’s just my read.

I’m a bit late in this thread but I celebrate with you your choice as to inspiration. I feel that an honest evaluation of faith sources from a fundamentalist view with either lead to the rejection of fundamentalism or the rejection of the Christian story completely. Rather than lecture you on it I will celebrate the strength that a doubting Thomas mentality brings to the table. You help keep it real. In my faith my God would understand your consternation and not hold it against you. Please continue to contribute here and don’t be restricted by your perceived “religion” or lack of it. I enjoy the interaction.