chockfull

Thx for the note from an experienced perspective. Maybe it’s a phenomenon with the grass being greener on the other side and the lack of options we have here that’s influencing my feelings on that front. I guess our choices are crooked party backroom deals and insurrection. Politics is messy. Thx mods for bending rhe rules to accommodate a civil conversation that discusses government and politics as related to TWI.

Ok so before this gets banned out of the gate let me set the framework. In the US of A, sometimes otherwise referred to as ‘Murica, we have a two party political system. Some other free republics also have this construct. I personally would prefer a four viable party system so that we have more options and aren’t restricted to a Tweedledee vs Tweedledum choice in geriatric medicine like we are currently. However, while I was in TWI I totally noticed a complete affiliation that was unspoken to a single political party. This was all done hush-hush and never from a stage or teaching platform. Why? Political affiliations would ruin a non-profit tax status and be grounds to disqualify TWI. I remember being on staff at TWI and the undercurrent of “suggestion” which is ever present was to get out and vote for our preferred political party. Why does TWI present a complete falsehood to our government that they are politically unbiased? How can they get away with it without losing tax exempt status? Mods this isn’t a political discussion so consider merits before ban hammering it. It is not presenting a one party opinion but discussing the attachments politically of a cult.

Yes I have a relative living at one. It’s a bit like the TWI staff. Very controlled and patrolled environment with respect to what can and can’t be said. Mostly carpentry and production for Watchtower. Education is discouraged as Jesus is coming back any minute now. They have Bethels in many countries. It is a high honor among them to live and work there. The next governing body comes from Bethel workers and the succession to those positions. Saying “I was a Bethelite” among JW gives them advanced status in a group.

Congratulations to you and your family. That’s awesome news. Godspeed brother and drop me a note from time to time. Thanks for your testimony about departing from false doctrine and making Jesus Lord again. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Body

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/BMLDktDe1b Hallelujah y’alls. Sisters are now permitted to wear slacks! Advancing in 2024! Also the ASL interpreter is Curious George!

Sorry to box you in. It’s all good people will eventually add in their perspective after a bit.

Trying to save you here you convo killer lol

On the numbers as you expounded I was going for any reported high water mark. As you detailed reality is somewhat lower. Like the benefits to being in a cult….

How can I not be deceived by other cults? I don’t want to join another one. https://www.reddit.com/r/cults/s/Mh6incJZ98 Reddit thread on this question. Some insightful commentary. For me it was partially self delusion. I traded free will and compliance for an emotional sense of security, belonging, and purpose. All those 3 tangible benefits were 100 percent delusional and false. There is no security and belonging in a high control environment where questioning or presenting a different opinion results in shunning. Obviously there is tangible negative emotional impact with shunning. And any purpose was masked with the true hidden purpose of elevating certain individuals in stature and position. There are emotional lies that people buy into and trade their freedom for.

Hey mod, With all of those quote sentences do you think you could make a form out of them with checkboxes? This way we could easily select one or multiple of them that is most appropriate to the convo?

He is playing out his false vision of himself as Paul, persecuted, imprisoned, but still putting out content. Except he lives in a free country with a lot of opportunity. And he is only imprisoned by the Way paying him a hush money stipend. YouTube is free. YouTube “entrepreneurs” need about 250k subscribers to even make a partial living, which is about 150k more than the greatest reach the cult ever had. He is at 500. The “reverend” title in practical application in today's society is certainly not one that commands the type of narcissist fawning over that VP or LCM envisioned. It more is on par with “shaman, or guru”. In mainstream Christian circles “pastor” carries more significant weight. In the Way that term carries little weight except for one of the “gift ministries”. That term in the Way is every bit as convoluted as the rest of their interpretation of the “one body” section of scripture in Corinthians. It is a magical quality bestowed by the top Machiavellians to those who say nothing but “yes” to every sycophant command. “Pastor” including the varying degrees and positions in mainstream Christianity (I.e. Associate Pastor, Head Pastor) at least describes an analogy of the job of taking care of people, something that the Way will never figure out because they have other priorities, like trademarking WOW. LCM is isolated out on his own island stranded by the political play of those closest to him. He won't escape that reality. He is not an isolated instance either. Paul talking about the family faith being made shipwreck, you probably have even up to a hundred other mini moglets from a Way background with their own little isolated mental realities teaching their version of Way interpreted scripture, paying homage to “the doctor” and trying to carve out their own little subsistence off of shipwrecked tithes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/s/q202RXmiNV So they are starting out younger and younger targeting the kids. Here’s the Mormons with a Stake President writing letters to 11 year olds. The next generation is where the cult interest is.

https://thespeakerlab.com/blog/what-are-ethos-pathos-and-logos/?utm_content=adwords&utm_term=&utm_campaign=NB-DSA&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=6969354497&hsa_cam=20941585374&hsa_grp=159420316202&hsa_ad=687905008745&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=dsa-19959388920&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAABVcvFRQ2sprRVBs1aCKeTnb6tkDr&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIz6fz0-PYhAMV3jmtBh2BEwKqEAAYASAAEgLgz_D_BwE Here is a little more content on logos pathos and ethos from a speakers perspective. Aristotle postulated that all convincing dialogue originates from these elements. If you consider them also as elements of how people make decisions it gets interesting. The mind (rationale) the authority appeal or credibility appeal and the emotional appeal. It also seems like it might provide some context to investigating “how I got involved with this cult” type of thought patterns.

Looking at some writings by Aristotle, I came across a method for rhetorical analysis of writings, speeches, texts, etc. https://www.scribbr.com/academic-essay/rhetorical-analysis/ Since we are analyzing the Bible and various other works I thought it might be interesting to introduce this angle of analysis. It leads to such questions as what is the logical appeal? Emotional appeal? Or appeal to authority? This might be also helpful in an analytic discussion.

Yeah I’m thinking I’m gonna go with Captain Ahab.

Cool. Obscure victim images. Labeling questions as hatred. Is this representative of the fruit we can expect from “Christians”? Asking for the world.

Is the point that you have an undisclosed Christian Fundamentalist bias? Or disclosed? I used to be Fundamentalist. I spent countless hours of mental manipulation ingraining apologist and absolute views of scripture into my brain: Then I got involved with VPs “How the Word Interprets Itself” in PFAL. Then that led to more countless hours pouring over collateral books trying to ingrain the VP stretches of scripture and short attention span homiletics into my brain as well. It took quite a while to see the hook in that fishing rig. It was baited with intellectualism, belonging in a group, a feeling of superiority. But that house is built on sand not rock.

So consensus says this john would be John the evangelist, different from John the apostle, different than gospel John author. Ironically, this would be a quote from scripture in a book. What was he writing about? I think it was Jesus. The quote sounds like he was with Jesus like John apostle but this was a different guy who lived later who likely never met Jesus. The words are inspiring though using a figure of speech to refer to “Word” as life filled, getting people to expect a bigger “life” quality reading this “Word” So accuracy? Not so much Inspiring language? It’s there.

Cool video. He delves into Project Historicity by describing “The Historic Method” which to me seems like a pretty good model based upon the Scientific Method to evaluate history.

That’s a nice review. Mr Stewart writes well himself. Congratulations!

Yeah I’ve just started disclose bias up front. It’s going to be there regardless of whether people think it’s not because they presume they have the “truth”. Fundamentalists, Atheists, Non Fund Christians, Buddhists, Moslem, Jewish All would have some distinct bias on this topic that would need to be highlighted to make progress towards any resolution.

There was the Jerusalem visit in Acts right? The one that 100 percent of all Way splinter faction cults totally relate to how legalistic whatever current group is running the Way are? Small intersection of the Peter and Paul saga. And two thirds of a 60s band lol. With respect to this forum it is completely logical to treat the Bible as a written source no different than other written sources.

"If indeed ne ought to call him a man." Josephus didn't write that. Someone who believes Jesus is the Messiah, or God Himself, wrote that. Josephus was also not one to remark on "surprising deeds" without getting specific. "Won over many Jews and Greeks..." to what? In context, the TF is part of a list of things Pilate did that got the Jews angry. Why include something, the execution of a heretic, that would not have angered the Jews? The resurrection is treated with no explanation whatsoever. Did he escape the crucifixion? Or did he die and get up? He states neither, and HE WOULD HAVE. "The prophets of God foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him"? Who other than a devout Christian would have written such a thing? A thousand other marvels? Come now. Josephus was not a Christian, devout or otherwise. The TF, beginning to end, is a credal statement, not a historical one. I am inclined to accept Carrier's explanation over Mason's on this one, the scholarly consensus against Carrier notwithstanding. Eusebius made it up. Ah, Tacitus. I actually reached my conclusion about Tacitus before I read Carrier, my only exposure to the controversy being Ehrman's pro-historicity book. Tacitus writes in 116 AD. After describing the great fire of Rome (64 AD) and Nero's attempt to blame it on Christians. Tacitus writes: I believe this passage is authentic. I do not believe it proves the history of the crucifixion, for a number of reasons. Primarily, the crucifixion is an aside to the point being made, which is that Nero blamed Christians for the great fire. So Tacitus had to define who Christians were. Well, by that time, the gospels were likely circulating by most accounts. It is doubtful that Tacitus independently sought out the records of Pilate's crucifixion to verify the execution of Jesus. It is far more likely, given the content and context of this passage, that Tacitus was merely relaying what Christians believed. He may have even believed it himself! But he cites no records and gives no indication that he is vouching for the accuracy of the account. It would be very much like me citing the date that Joseph Smith found the gold plates from which he translated the book of Mormon, knowing full well a. when it was alleged to have happened and b. that it did not. Tacitus tells us what Christians believed in the early second century, not what actually transpired in the early first. He does tell us that by 64 AD one could distinguish in the Roman empire those who called themselves Christians and those who called themselves Jews. But that was not in dispute. We know that from Paul. Carrier, if I am not mistaken, is open to the possibility that the Tacitus passage on Christ (note: not "Jesus) was a later interpolation. I don't think that position is worth considering. I think it is far more likely that Tacitus was reflecting what Christians believed, not what he had independently confirmed. Tacitus description of Rome is downright hilarious and the best I’ve ever read It is plausible that there is a scribe or forgery error in Josephus or Eusibius or that one or the other had an agenda. This thread is turning out like one of those hour long “In Search Of” shows I’ve seen. Sasquatch, the Bermuda Triangle, etc. I guess some might also spin off a thread on a literary criticism of Moby Dick? Or we might also do a dueling verses thread on hypocrisy and logic in the OT? I guess the old VP rant on how where the Bible speaks on history it is accurate fundamentalism view isn’t exactly true or accurate?

Allan, you’re losing me a little with this comment. I just started watching this guys YouTube channel where he has a series of teachings to his own local community church about cults. He is as part of a denomination probably adhering to some of the creeds which have a trinitarian statement in them. I really don’t know everything that guy believes. I did read in his background that he tried a TWI fellowship, was not inspired, then joined that church and has been with them for a while going to seminary and taking an associate pastor role in his church. Hence the advanced studies cult videos. I was more interested in the content he presented as opposed to his theological orientation. I found many many practical similarities and almost identical practices spanning a wide variety of cults that he covered. It seemed to me the cults were all way similar compared to more community oriented Christian churches in their methods of control over the lay follower. You may find a different conclusion. In any sense no I am not saying anywhere that a trinitarian view identifies a cult. If that pastor guy said it I don’t agree.

Revisiting the question. To consolidate I would say it is because it makes me a better person in my opinion. It drives me towards virtue and away from vice. Which is funny as it would be very similar to the answers I’d get asking some of my friends about why they are Moslem or Jewish or Buddhist. I don’t think about any reasons such as it making me more special than my friends. So I’m not cut out to be the next Joel Olsteen.