chockfull

Yes I am certainly not joining a Franciscan monk order with daily self floggings lol. The trials of our faith have produced endurance and depth and wisdom. I see so many of my former friends sucked up into TWI 4 cycle of abuse though. Why can’t they break free? Why have others clung to the false 1942 promise and propped up another abusive group? Why is it the same lie people tell themselves of research that is not research, teaching meaning a push button DVD and phone hookup, and fellowship only with your group of deluded followers not accepting other groups and initiatives under the body of Christ? Why are people so comfortable with bondage? I guess if they never experience anything negative and the leaders hide that well they keep the deluded youth engaged and working.

Middle name. Shumate or similar was the previous married name - who she had kids with and later abandoned them via mark and avoid. She is a snake most women have natural affection towards their offspring. NDAs are telling. They don’t want to reform the ministry they want to hide their actions from prosecution. ”Come on home, sign the NDA, shut up, and run the new PLaffy, and ABS”. That is what they want. The truth is not what they want.

This is a really good distinction. Godly sorrow is accountability for recognizing the standard of Gods law and our failure to hit the mark. Some of the AA steps are taken from here. Being earnest, apologies, zeal and concern for justice. The idea you can approve yourself clear in a matter. Guilt seems different - a dwelling and absorption into sin consciousness. Attaching to the emotions for much longer than it takes to “be clear in this matter”. Never being clear in the matter. For me telling the truth here is part of my hard work to “be clear in this matter”. As opposed to the accusations towards us here of beating a dead horse and a dead man and not moving on. My response is once the evil borg stops playing with peoples lives causing division in the body of Christ and teaching false doctrine I will be happy to stfu.

Mike I’m gonna acknowledge this as you coming out of your shell a little bit on the sex topics. It’s funny and illustrates a good point about sliding morality.

This is an honest account of a genuine Christian in the research department that wrote a very simple word study paper on “adultery”. The timeframe of the paper circulation is documented. Fog years when Geer was an advisor to the BOT - Walter Cummins still around. Who knows when this topic first came up or was looked into. The cartoon on the motorcycle shed is an indication of ridiculing scripture from a seared conscience. When was this drawn? Unknown. Extreme censorship of material like this was and is common in TWI. They treat GSC like this up to current times. Excommunication for all remotely associated with it. JS last paragraph time has shown to be majorly delusional investigating the history of CES and leadership. JAL started even more splinters after that - he was a true used car salesman.

Raf point is there is no such thing as spiritual knowledge. There is only “knowledge” where all scientific laws apply. There are no “phenomenon” spiritually not explained by natural laws like gravity and the scientific method. This is consistent with an atheist view. They don’t believe in “sky daddy” - Raf isn’t using those terms to be polite. I hope that is a decent summary without getting too pedantic.

I was one of the ones who mostly shielded field followers from HQ bs. I stood up for them in meetings upward and spoke against extreme punishment or tactics or shunning. I also knew people who tried to recreate the Corps environment on the field. This was 180 degrees different than how we led people. We always had others propped up in leadership unlike the example shown us. We didn’t institute “mini Corps programs” in fellowships like many Corps grads I saw doing. Yet I still remember very distinctly being directly instructed to yell at particular people, with an unspoken threat for non compliance - from more than one region coordinator . And other various Stanford prison types of “assignments” to “check something out” from hq. I never have and never will justify my complicity in this system and actions under direct instruction and duress not just modeling. The yelling thing changed after LCM was canned. RFR was way more passive aggressive. Under those Pharisees they would question lock step commitment and shun people from a closed door meeting then never talk about it. Different from LCM who would trash someone from Corps night. This had less overt libel and slander - that was pushed down to the lay members and just hinted at that people were dropped because they were possessed. That was actually worse with people tip toeing around for fear of being reported as saying negative things. They tried to shut down GSC many times directly. They actively excommunicated anyone suspected of posting here. Now with this group of current clowns you have a “good cop” front and a “bad cop” back. Come on home, except for you group of Corps that challenged the dictatorial structure of the Way leadership and suggested voting and equal voice for all Corps. You guys are mark and avoid. In the Stanford Prison experiment the population was sorted into “guards” and “prisoners”. I don’t view the Way Corps graduates as the “prisoners” they were the “ruling class”. Yes, it was more likely that ordained clergy acted in the most extreme side of this for the most part. There were very few around like sky for example who were genuine and reasonable and shielding the of the cult culture - they were all mostly puffheaded idiots. Did I ALWAYS “treat people how I was trained”? That is a way too general bucket. I had leaders in my time in that trained me well and genuinely in the midst of the system. So for those cases that would have been a good thing. I didn’t have anyone tell me BS in the sexual category like VP to LCM. And I treated people according to my conscience and not the rules in many cases. But in the negative cases I remember I did follow a jackass direction as it would have been political suicide not to. And they know who are the gung ho people that will do anything they ask and who aren’t. They promote the former up to the top ranks. As it progressed on and the number of dropped Corps in fellowships increased their were more attacks on Corps who basically would feel like the non dropped guy were no better than them and so would attack and work to get them dropped. To be fair. So you were constrained from above by Pharisees and attacked from below by hurt people. Yes God in the midst of this was still Himself and helped me remain sane through it all. But no I’m not going to excuse myself and others abusing and abused from being enveloped in this system of nonsense and hurting others. Including the ex Corps and clergy here. Even the best behaved and most well intentioned souls.

Saint vic and good ole boy Howard started the research with a cartoon on the wall of their motorcycle shed. It was a picture of two bugs engaged in intercourse with the caption “flea fornication”. I wonder which of them drew it.

You mean TWI-2. I read that paper during the fog years. It just seemed like a basic word study, nothing revolutionary. It probably came off more confrontational to people who had something to hide in those categories.

I did. From her book mainly the research was looking for backing scripture for VPs foregone conclusions. And firing people at the apex of their work and publishing books with his name on their work.

Charity that’s a great point. My read on VP was more to do with him not being enough of the center of attention. But I blew right by what you brought up. Yes a look at Ephesians 6 w/r to athletes verses warriors is absolutely necessary to me thank you. I will look into that.

My position I am coming from is functioning on a blend of intellect and intuition so to speak. I personally would characterize intuition as “spiritual knowledge”. I feel like truths in that category are more subjective and individual. That’s just my view. So on the topic of you can’t just declare it as true and invent a way other people can’t have it - I guess to break that down we have to look at the adjectives as “knowledge” is knowledge and logic applies. You are saying because logic applies there is only one category “knowledge” and Paul is dancing around playing on that field. My view is a “zoology” of knowledge that can be classified into buckets. I might consider other adjectives attached besides the two. Like “musical knowledge” for example. I will never be EVH no matter how much I practice lol.

“Big enough job learning and moving what has been given to us.” Along with a complete denial or investigation of the truth of or fruit of VPWs plagiarism and dishonesty. Oh but it is all better now because there won’t be another VPW. Yes that is the re-search camp. And the whitewash camp. It really is another example of false advertising to call TWI a “Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship” ministry. Those words are only true if you re-define what each of the terms mean. Re-search instead of research. One way communication instead of teaching. Fellowship with only those Christians who have “taken the class” and are “standing with the ministry”. Yes if you redefine darkness as light then TWI makes sense.

I see plenty of logic and reason on this thread from people with various viewpoints. If it is a vaccine then it’s kind of suckish.

My comment here on this long diatribe is that your pro Plaffy mindset you say you constructed in 1998 when you arrived at the point you felt you had the truth - sounds remarkably like the logic that RFR used to eliminate the TWI research department and to ramp up the whitewashing (I mean publications) department. If you already have the truth like it hasn’t been known since the first century there’s no need for further research. Just re-search.

I’ll give it a run. 1. Perspective - to me it seems more balanced. 50/50 winning and losing 2. Yes I believe God can answer prayers. Define scarce. Should people drift on clouds and have a genie assistant on hand? The miraculous in any sense including sports references don’t happen that often. 3. I don’t see God as sitting back but involved. In a free will system that means accepting that God can’t step in on a whim but goes with the system rules for a period of time. What if a parent stepped in to pitch or hit every time his kids little league baseball team got behind? And what if it was only allowed for one team? Who would ever play baseball by choice? 4. No I don’t have a “better” answer than yours. I only have the answer I have proven for myself. Dang. I’ve done back doored myself into an athletes analogy for scripture. And it didn’t even trigger a tights picture.

Yeah that’s a good point - harboring guilt is just another form of bondage that is a secondary impact. It is a fine line for me honestly evaluating and yet moving on and holding fast to the good and living as a son of God. You are right on in that imagery. What ship am I allowing to dock at my dock and live in my harbor? TWIs desire is for that to be a whitewash ship. And to “come on home to where the Word is”. My path currently is to light a Chinese junk on fire and sail it into the ammo supplies and blow it up. Maybe I’m too far leaning to one side on this. Maybe we shouldn’t blow up the ammo because we need it for hunting. Yes I see Gods hand on my life protecting through the insanity and providing a table in the presence of my enemies. That is truth also.

Dancing horses are cool lol. There are terms in the NT that are athletic competition focused. LCM ruined those for me for a long time. I’m still recovering lol. Sorry. And I’m too old and slow to run so that I win. The problem here is me o Lord lol.

Well my observations are the “second thoughts” of VP had more to do with the extremity of LCMs antics than actual scripture concerns. “The ministry is the Word and the word is the ministry”. VPW And yes you bury your head in the sand when sexual immorality is brought up as a topic.

I didn’t learn to be overly judgmental of my life in TWI. Exactly the opposite. I was Corps fulfilling Gods calling. I was walking by revelation. I was following the directives laid out in the household. When did I become “overly judgmental” of my life? When I was shunned and manipulated and gaslighted to believe the negative things the Pharisees told me. So what did I do? Sought out a second opinion. And told the first group and their opinion to pound sand. I guess in a topic entitled “taking responsibility and a long hard look at yourself” this would not be the thread where I am focusing on the sonship rights from the blue book. It would be more where I do the hard work to sort out my culpability in past endeavors. Sorry sometimes words come out really direct I’m not trying to confront anyone I am trying to tell my truth.

God looks on the heart. Jesus instructs to examine by the fruit. What is “overly critical” about following Jesus instructions? Even toward our own historical path? We all are struggling with the cognitive dissonance of our genuine hearts being turned to serve a corrupt system. I also am thankful for Gods grace and mercy and have moved on. Doctrinally and practically. Psalm 23 is mine. Part of moving on is telling the truth. If it is not why post here at all? Why not just move on? To me it is because to truly serve Jesus Christ I have a duty to tell the truth to help others from the same snare. I mean how did you handle believers who came to you asking about the dilemma between a mortgage and the Advanced Class? Well or no?

Yes it’s been like two decades and I still see “men in tights” images when reading Olympic athlete type terms in scripture. Due to that trauma I’m a little more focused on the agriculture references and imagery currently. I do enter into 5k races locally occasionally. There is a Thanksgiving one I have run with my kids. How that usually goes is I see all sorts of people passing me - kids, dogs, old people in wheelchairs, guys on crutches, etc. I run in a race but the one receiving the prize is usually a high school or college distance runner in a program. I don’t have to chase a clump of dirt to plant something in.

So you think a large production largely featuring devil spirit costumes where the lead in tights is having an illicit affair with the head “seed of the serpent” who happens to be a hot chick to “loosen up in that category” as directly instructed by his “father in the Word” was too much?

I hear you sky. To me it is somewhat of a delicate balance. I had and have a genuine desire to live as a Christian with Jesus Christ as Lord not as a bobble head on the dashboard I can manipulate. The Way’s version of that reality is a “lifetime of Christian service” as a label, but the details of that are becoming a yes-man to Pharisees who make policy to make life easier for themselves and harder for those that follow them. And to tiptoe around in fear of saying anything critical for fear of excommunication. That is not a lifetime of Christian service. That is a lifetime of Pharisee service and self service. So the dilemma here is a genuine young soul and a corrupt system. How do I resolve those two ? Human nature is to make up a story where I am a hero. Whether true or not. But the truth of the matter is the corrupt system hurt and enslaved many. And I was “sold out” to the system and didn’t really consider that some people would bait and switch my genuine desire to replace with absolute compliance to “the system”. One analogy has been the role of a prison guard. These roles can be assumed very quickly as the Stanford prison experiment showed. The Way Corps was a larger scale Stanford Prison Experiment that produces a new set of prison guards every year, helping to perpetuate the prison experiment lifestyle. A ruling class and a governed class. Both classes constructed on blind obedience and trust. This is a recipe for a cult. The pattern can get really bad like the Heavens Gate group and the Jonestown group. In TWI sometimes you had benevolent prison guards who treated the prisoners well. With my genuine heart and desire I fulfilled that pattern most of the time. But I was bound to follow orders and beat the prisoners other times. So do I want to invent a history where I was the hero to myself and everyone around me? I don’t. I feel that would be lying to myself and everyone around. I would rather try and view from an objective perspective and highlight the scam that started the prison experiment. Was God there through it all? Yes always. Did I see His hand in my life in the midst of this? Yes. To me to be true to God I tell the truth now. Thankfully my family hasn’t shunned me and I am able to rebuild some bridges. That’s not true for others who were victims of shunning and whose families are entangled still. These are very real ongoing problems. The gap between the whole body of Christ functioning together and a bunch of Pharisees isolating a “household of God” subject to lock step compliance is huge. To me telling the truth is more important than my ego to reinvent the path I traveled. Let me be an average Christian in an average church doing average good works over being some hot shot who posts his resume on the net about how they saved the world through the greatness of their “yes ma’am”. We did a fair amount of good for people and their lives while in. We helped many navigate the policy waters of their insane approach to debt helping the best we could. We protected the flock from evil intentions of overseers. We tried our best to genuinely help them. As Stanford prison guards. Not some anointed version of a fake clergy with a golden calf VP statue and an oversized ego. Not saying that is you sky. You have a genuine heart to help others and serve. Your insights are articulate and balanced. You help a lot of people here. I’m sure you helped people you led also in TWI. So did I and yes I have memories of some great snapshots that God helped energize when I was in also. Just trying to tell the truth and catalyze more freedom for myself and others. And the truth about TWI is to look at the putrid fruit brought about by their Pharisee systems and activities. I would rather have one day of freedom than 10 years of recognition of being a really important person in a prison experiment.

I get the idea that if you take all the strong terms in the Bible that are negative and personalize them to the point that whether it is taking of Herod, Pharisees, Sadducee’s, the devil in temptations, various descriptions of spiritual entities if you lump together all of those audiences and take them to mean yourself I can see where you would feel categorically attacked. And as such use strong language in response. The idea I would present back is some of the natural man verses spiritual man imagery could have to do with being familiar enough with the spiritual audiences in scripture that you do not take everything personally as a frontal attack or ad hominem attack but rather realize those described in negative words like that are specific to audience and circumstance of the story and not generally applicable to all of different or no faiths or religions. Discrepancies in the harmony of the gospels are well known and I accept them and accept they may all be inaccurate in little details and may not be congruent. VPs work in JCOP was his attempt at this harmony in a way. I don’t accept fundamentalism in general so this is not a concern to me. Paul was probably not terrified of any debate to be honest. With his background. I kind of agree with your questions on the blood sacrifice and wonder why all that nonsense required the shedding of blood for payment. I guess it might have to do with the messiah fulfilling OT laws so it was a just trade for the new birth and those lives. From my view even reason needs an anchor. You can’t speak geometry without speaking of it taking point, line and plane on faith.