chockfull

Where exactly is it you see 'ranting about the individual involved' ??? This podcast is an individual's account. There are individuals in the gospels who wronged Jesus - like Herod for example. Pauls talks about Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil. As I stated before with the Pharisees, there were a group of them all together attacking Jesus to try and discount his healing people on the sabbath, not washing hands enough, hanging out with publicans and sinners. Since they were attacking all together, he addressed them as a group. You failed to address that point, and yet it's your main founding logic behind telling Kristen and all here that it's wrong to bring up an individual's sexual sins.

This is an estimate, not fact. There are 15 regions in the TWI USA work. Each region represents from 500-600 what they call 'active believers'. This puts membership in the USA work currently at 7500-9000 people. I don't have a means to estimate international involvement.

exc, Your son sounds like a wonderful and interesting young man who has courage, a sense of humor, and is starting to ponder the deep things of life. May he grow into a tall tree in the forest showing forth all God's beauty.

WD, Kristen's sharing is her unique life's experience. She is sharing it to provide clarity, and help those that can benefit from it. She is not commenting on Pharisee's personal lives over and over day after day. The Pharisees attacked Jesus as a group, so he addressed them as a group. The sins of TWI leadership many times were individual offenses as opposed to group offenses. So responding in generalities to them as a group makes zero logical sense. The coverups of the individual sins were group efforts, so we can call them modern-day Pharisees, that strain at gnats and swallow camels, that tithe of mint and spices, but ignore the weightier matters in life, that need to learn what it means that God would have mercy and not sacrifice. Pharisees typically didn't own too many chariots. They were the working-class religious zealots. The Saduccees were the ruling class. If you'd take the time to look through the account in Matthew 23 rather than making vague generalizations about it, you could learn some great detail about what Jesus did think needed to be confronted. With respect to handling individual sins publically especially of the sexual nature, you don't need to go much farther than Corinthians, in 1 Cor. 5:1 one individual is singled out for a sexual sin, and Paul's recommendation was to handle it and confront it publicly. This is not even a person with a leadership responsibility, yet it is to be brought up in an epistle meant to be read in all the churches, and with impact for generations to follow. That is not gossip, that is not a lack of concern with personal sin and the impact it had on all the believers. That is confronting it, saying it's wrong, and handling it. For you to state that Jesus would not want these things exposed or handled publicly, or that he would not want accounts like this to get out to warn people is a completely slanted view of what the scripture teaches, and it is one that is similar to the way TWI leadership handles these things, to discount them and sweep them under the carpet. It has taken legal action to change this, when in all honesty it should have been handled from a good moral Christian conscience. Yet that is the pattern - there is no good honest moral Christian conscience when it comes to TWI leadership.

Estimated Prophet, Thanks for your responses and consideration. We are as you say pretty much on the same page. These are murky waters to navigate and all of us are blind at junctures. I am thankful for Ralph taking the time to delve into these matters, and provide some detail and clarity. I don't know what he's up to lately, but hope all the best for him. My hopes are that we all can pursue a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and our Heavenly Father, free from the yoke of bondage and the leaven of the Pharisees. My goal and vision is that we can stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and walk the path that God enlightens for us in pursuit of His will for our lives, wherever that takes us.

Thanks. Intentions and what is actually accomplished at times can differ. My issues with your statements are addressed in the above post. I would agree, and add that they "teach for doctrine the commandments of men". I have always viewed Jesus Christ as the head, yet through my association with TWI and their leadership who appeared to, yet in their inner hearts and life practices did not, I was hurt as well. Is this my failure to hold JC as the head? Or just that I was deceived because I didn't know details like Ralph shared? I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. I can relate to you here - I'm thankful for the Word I learned. I have forgiven and will not allow bitterness over what was lost to rule my life. Here we go again with the insinuations. I do seek proper training, I continue to research the Word, I give Christ a try every day, and seek him to be Lord in my heart and life to the best of my ability. I'm sure like most, some days are better than others.Maybe instead of judging others you should take your own suggestions? Who exactly is it that you think it is that motivates exposing the sinful and destructive practices of TWI? Jesus Christ? Or the flaming head of Jerry Garcia in a vision? Or is it Satan? I'll tell you there are varying opinions on that. I know who motivates it for me.

Why do you wonder? Can't you accept the information at face value without questioning his motives? Many people were hurt through the events and practices he addressed. That should be enough in and of itself as a clear reason to bring it all back up now. There are many details in his podcast that never have been brought up before. What's your motive in questioning? being aware of the leaven of the Pharisees in and of itself helps direct hearts back to the Good Shepherd As are most people who have a conscience's heart. They grieve the injustice, and the years and effort spent supporting such charlatans. This is a godly thing. I also thank God for my Savior Jesus Christ. He is the true head of the body, and stands in direct opposition to the functioning of pseudo leadership as described in Ralph's account. What's behind your message besides a veiled reference to a mote in your brother's eye? What does this veiled reference accomplish other than to discredit his account? Why is it that every genuine heart sharing here on GS seems to have people needing to attack it and discredit it immediately afterwards, all in the name of Jesus purporting to bring "healing" and "forgetting the past"? Most people here have had enough of people trying to silence the atrocities commited by the leadership of TWI by sweeping them under a carpet, paying off millions in lawsuit settlements with believers ABS, and talking about some nebulous concepts of healing and forgetting the past. They could experience that in the organization. People don't hide behavior that's appropriate, they hide behavior that is inappropriate. When the inappropriate behavior is brought to light, people can make better decisions than when it was hidden. Agreed. Even Jesus said of the Pharisees - "follow what they say, but don't do what they do". That is a day by day and thought by thought process my friend - pulling down strongholds, casting down imaginations, bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ. sincere well-meaning Christians often do the most damage. So write him a letter or give him a call. Asking about it in this forum in response to a sharing he made on events in the past serves nothing but to cast doubt on what he did share. Which Church is this you speak of? TWI? Another Christian group? The body of Christ as described in the Bible? If the latter, how can you purport to speak for the entire body of Christ to say he has not been communicating Christ? Does casting doubt upon your brother in Christ somehow bring Christ more clearly into the picture? If so, please enlighten us how.

Have you not read Matthew 23, where Jesus confronts the scribes and Pharisees in detail? Very interesting read. He uses the words as a figure of speech "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites" 8 times. This represents a new beginning. He teaches in detail to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. So by your logic, Jesus himself spent a significant amount of time "running his mouth about someone else's sins", and that doesn't take much effort. The Bible speaks differently. Considering deeply in detail all of the leaven of the Pharisees, as well as highlighting in detail the hypocrisy they functioned with in the outward appearance being godly but the inner reality being evil, can be healing. It can present a new beginning to people. In this thread, Kristen's account presents a story that unfolds to detail out this exact hypocrisy. The accounts of abuse people have suffered can be healing to those who have suffered similarly. It can expose evil which previously was unexposed. It can help people leave, and stop supporting evil with their time, effort and money. That is a good thing.

Enlightening account of events surrounding that time. Additional info I learned by the accounts were that all BOT / BOD were aware of adultery doctrine and practices, Donna was in the Yak twig and thus aware as well, and the extremity of the viciousness that is wrapped within the corporate culture when one loses favor with whoever is perceived to be in power. Those are reasonably established facts. They also serve as benchmarks to look at when people want to talk about a new changed more wonderful TWI. Have those practices changed? Donna and Rosie must have lied about Donna's knowledge of the adultery practices to justify her staying at HQ. She has a top administrative executive position now. When people lose favor there is still a viciousness of treatement. So lies, political posturing, and viciousness. All ingrained in a corporate culture that was developed in the '70's and has not changed. People want to make ad hominem attacks on the character of RD to discredit these facts. They also want to derail and discount these facts by asking "where was Jesus during this time, and why no focus on him?" Those are tactics to distract and discredit, and lead away from the way of truth, not towards it. And the fact that time has passed before these accounts were detailed and questioning the purpose. By the same logic, we should discount reading the gospels because they were written possibly 60 years or so after the events occurred. I'm sure the Sanhedrim would question the accounts and accuracy in the gospels, as it would discredit their position of political power. Ralph comes across to me as a man governed more by his inner conscience and ethics of morality established as a Christian man than a man governed by political posturing. That is to his credit. He has even rightfully through this questioning asked some root core questions about establishing ministries as his reasons for not jumping on a spinoff bandwagon. Where's the proper training to avoid making the same mistakes?

I really have no idea. It's just the abbreviation they use on blue forms when somebody registers. Maybe its a secret code that unlocks the hidden 'extra special' Genesis 3 interpretations in the class. All done in interpretive dance. In the Energizer 'D' batteries. Where else?

Even more interesting is the current lawsuit TWI has against insurance companies who don't seem to want to provide coverage for their BOD for some reason....

Just letters standing for the Foundational Class on the Way of Abundance and Power (FNC), or Foundational Class. It is videotaped so no longer taught live, by 3 teachers, and is basically the same as the Martin@le class, minus a couple things.

Wolves have cubs, hence a shepherd's work is never done...

Interesting... So one possibility is that the 2 living in the basement (sharing 1 bed) potentially could have had something on Rosie & Donna such as knowing the true nature of their relationship, and so were protected. Craig's hatred of homos AND the kind of out there interpretation in his FNC of the original sin being lesbianism could point to him knowing about such a relationship, yet with those 2 having all the dirt on his escapades being powerless to do anything about it besides rant like a lunatic. The basement duo survived all the purges at HQ, and Janet even provided a lot of 'genuine spiritual suspicion' evidence (takes one to know one). Rosie gave them a lavish banquet when they left that nobody there could understand. There is evidence (can see on Wikipedia and published in a newspaper) that Rosie knew of Craig's escapades by 1995. It's quite a stretch to think that she wouldn't have told her good 'friend' Donna, and they potentially may have known years before this. Then they conspired to oust Craig. The reason given Donna didn't have to leave with Craig was 'she didn't know about it'. Yeah right. They've ousted more people than that for 'lack of CP1'. I hear in the new FNC they took out the lesbianism in Gen 3, and removed Craig's closing the class with Romans 1. Everything else is pretty much intact.

In my opinion spin is a political term, and is a way to influence and control public perception. The argument is that one doesn't have to spin something inherently good, it stands on its own merits. We seek "the real thing", not something that has to be spun. However, that is all too rare where people are involved. Now that album by the Spin Doctors, in my opinion, definitely stands on its own merit. Snappy beats, good crunch warm guitars, intriguing lyrics. Overall good sound.

Joel 2:25-27 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Catcup, I like your posts, and I share your sentiments. For my life, what I struggle with is that I think those many years ago I was praying to God and following God. I don't know what happened, but somehow really want to believe that all things work together for good for us that love God and are called according to His purpose. It's just that years ago His purpose and TWI's purpose diametrically divurged for me, and I've since learned all this stuff about how the corrupt roots extend way back to the highest and earliest, how a lot was plagiarized, the sex scandals, the homo stuff that's probably still going on. I just have to believe that somehow God has protected my heart and that all that scripture I worked at learning is worth something. Why should their pathology be mine? But maybe I'm just chockfull of nuts and in need of therapy.

Yanagisawa, I've got a test myself. It's a really cool one, involving a bucket of water, a car battery, jumper cables, and someone's testicles. We'd all like you to participate. And to stay on track on this thread, it's unfortunate this wronged man wasn't able to perform this kind of test on the veepster when he was still alive.

WhiteDove, my speculation is that you work for the public relations department at TWI. What exactly is so wrong or evil about a one-sided story? We never get to hear both sides, and not the other side, as TWI and leaders there are too busy with the silent treatment and damage control tactics. Hell how many people have they paid off in lawsuits to keep from having both sides of the story exposed for all to see and make their own judgements? What we have here at GS is a little bit of an exposure site. So people who want nothing more than forget their experiences with TWI and move on come on here, find similar stories of evil functioning, get incensed, post their experiences, feel better about themselves, and move on. But as for you, to quote Shakespeare, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" Hamlet Act 3 Scene 2

And again, since we are going over this one more time, the point here on this forum is that the burden for proof here on an anonymous public internet forum is NOT the same as it is in a court of law, or in a journalistic publication such as a newspaper. It's lower. What that means is that you have plenty of hurt people who have a venue to vent their feelings at what happened to them, receive some support, and help heal. And you have a number of pinheads on here who like to attack those people's stories, discount them, try and uphold standards for accusations that don't apply, and in general behave like buttheads in many ways exactly like the insensitive morally depraved control freak morons who hurt them in the first place. And that of course is why people post their stories here and then leave. But maybe that's the intent of the buttheads. Damage control for TWI, trying to discount stories by these tactics, and drive away people so more aren't affected.

uh, yeah. because dead people are prosecuted all the time in our society. right? Actually many of the details and evidence are coming to light. The actual court case was sealed so we don't have access to any of the depositions, but many of the potential witnesses in the case that were never officially deposed are certainly free to disclose facts. Now yes it would be great to have a record of the deposition by lcm where he admitted to his hundreds of torrid affairs, but it's not really necessary - we see the results. His wife divorced him, his kids won't speak to him, his organization disowned him, he publically apologized. Other stories put together a pattern of behavior that was pretty clear. One of the lawsuits was a quid pro quo sexual harassment case, which was also settled quickly. These are ALL civil cases, not criminal. That makes them legal - they legally admitted guilt and paid off victims, with enough money to ensure they wouldn't speak of it further. part of the pattern of abuse is to call real things that happened to people imagination or speculation. that's what twi leaders have done, except where they've had to accept and sign the lawsuit settlement papers. even then how it was publically handled is by presenting a victory that they were settled. your book must be about a second grade reading level. i beg to differ. speaking up always has value, and many times catalyzes changes not immediately seen. the founding fathers of our country were a tiny little group of people with a given agenda. certainly the king of england wanted to dismiss them. they became a burr under his saddle and took his power, in the process establishing a great country. the accusations most certainly have merit. they have proven so legally. they have merit in thwarting further abuse. stories like these are used all the time in the business world to educate buyers. they are called "customer reviews". they affect the ability to sell the product.

The Illuminati. Or the Templars. But I'm not sure if that comes from TWI, or simply the cool dreams I've had since watching the latest "National Treasure" movie.

How sweet. pond is projecting the past abuses pond committed onto the woman caught in adultery, and is subconsciously repenting and asking all of us for forgiveness. How kind, loving, and honorable, pond. And of course, we all forgive you. Now, go and sin no more.

Ho, ho, ho and a Merry Christmas to all. Mistletoe, eggnog with rum, lots of presents, cookies and milk for Santa. Family, fun, and the joy of childhood. And if it's all of pagan origin then God bless the pagans who helped establish a tradition that gives me days off of work and a fun time with my family. -CF "Dedicated to putting the X back in Xmas."

Outstanding!!! What a bunch of scumbags. How about a man or woman who minister be married and enjoy their marriage without needing outside relationships? Kind of like the Bible teaches? Control was a major underlying theme through a lot of the behavior and teachings. Amen, sister. A fitting end that John S after being abused helped found another group that he still leads. And I hope with all the garbage you had to put up with that God seeing your real beauty gave you someone to take care of you and not use you.