chockfull

What's amazingly similar when you look at Vic and a lot of the other cult leaders is how they set themselves up to be mediators between God and man. They functionally move to replace Christ in their followers eyes and understanding as opposed to simply pointing man towards Christ and themselves as a sinner like all the rest of mankind. You see this in their fruit as opposed to their words. Mankind doesn't need another Savior, another Mediator. Christ is sufficient. To me this is the crux of the difference between genuine and counterfeit Christianity. Between Christ and an antichrist.

An elitist mindset that sounds just like TWI members. He hasn't yet grown out of that yet as we have.

Adding to the list: 6. One to determine whether the NEEDS and WANTS are parallel. You may WANT to change the light bulb, but do you really NEED to change the light bulb? If you didn't change the light bulb you could give the money you saved to TWI as opposed to spending it on second rate causes like hardware stores who are really run by seed men. and 7. Light? Who needs light? If you're TWI's Board of Directors, you could just redefine darkness as light and then none of your followers would need to change light bulbs.

There are a number of reasons GSC doesn't fit into the "splinter group" category. 1) No figurehead leadership. (Paw's nice and not the imposing cult leader type). 2) No membership. (Members are a cross-section of many Christian churches / orgs.) 3) Ecumenical in nature. (All participate - Christians to Atheists). 4) $$$ - no taught tithing / ABS / etc. Now I'm starting to understand the "get over it" spiel. You don't want us to ruin your buzz, man. ;) While most of us can understand and relate to an analogy of being in TWI like smoking dope in that both causes you to depart from reality, I don't think the positivity / negativity line of thought holds much water. And this group stopped smoking dope in the '70's too. I wonder if that made them less positive. Well, we don't go to fellowship together 3x per week, plus phone hookups, plus coords meetings, plus fax in leaders our schedules, plus spending all your time off and money on going to events where people teach you to write letters and you're taught the same stuff at a 5th grade level. Actually I don't really see how anyone on this site does a lot of "hanging out". It's a discussion forum. Actually the one thing you discuss I have "gotten over" from TWI involvement is resentment. Now I'm free to discuss facts, opinions, differences of viewpoints, etc. Maybe you're projecting. Maybe it's you who ought to reconsider involvement with splinter groups. Actually the newbies just leaving TWI need it more so they know they aren't crazy and aren't the only ones who experienced what they did.

You know, I go back and forth on some of this. I have an underlying trust in God that, like a tapestry, is woven throughout all these stories and my years of effort involved. In some ways it exposed me to much more of the Bible than I would have outside of my involvement. I think all that is good. The quality of the research wasn't great and under the test of time is proving to be more shoddy, but I believe God has honored my heart and intentions. The only reason I involved myself in any of the research was to get closer to my Father. Sometimes, with my trust, I feel that like Egypt for Israel He led me in and He led me out. I appreciate your perspective, Charlene, and thanks for your writings both here and your "Windows" piece. I really liked that. I have no trouble in mixing my axiomatic belief in the Bible as inspired writing with the pragmatic approach that anything man touches will never be perfect. It doesn't all fit in nice little compartments, but then again neither does life.

So TWI apparantly is still run by a militant lesbian control freak. And the appeal of subjecting oneself to this kind of leadership and example is what, exactly? Rhetorical question, of course.

This is a plagiarist's logic. It values and promotes taking another man's work and "making it your own". While there is value in building a foundation upon what is already been done, to restrict expanding upon it is to orient yourself towards dogma and away from innovation.

Interesting to look at cause and effect here. Internationally HQ does not exert the same command and control tactics as happens in the USA. And the numbers are greater. As far as the "facts" about numbers steadily rising, yes there is the standard BS party line on that happening. What's interesting is to look at how they try and achieve that in policies. For example, no Limb coordinator is allowed to remove someone from the rolls without approval from the Trunk office. Region, Limb, Branch coordinators turn in numbers every month, including any increase or decrease in numbers. There is verbal counsel from as high as the BOD level that showing loss reflects badly on their leadership. So they fudge numbers, include people on rolls that attend one event in 2 years, try and talk people into remaining in contact even though they are leaving to keep them on the books. Those are facts.

Nice sentiments from Geek. A good solid Biblical perspective on dealing with adversity and getting over hurt through Job's examples are a good start. One of the astounding things about the book of Job is the lengths to which Job went to help his friends. He was subjected to much more than you would expect a human being to take from those 3. I don't know if it was all planned by Job, reading it through more likely those were the people around him at the time for better or worse and he worked with what he had and God honored his heart and turned things around. I can pray for those still within TWI who have a pure heart I suppose. And yet the more time that goes on and the longer people are around it, I have to believe that they see signs of the corruption that exists, see evidence of good people being screwed over, see the lies being told. And the longer people see evil and do nothing about it the less pure their own hearts are. How much should one compromise their own integrety to try and change the hard of heart? It's a personal choice. For me, I don't pray for them in general. It's not that they couldn't use it or I couldn't do it, it's simply a matter of priority. There are those within my own house and my own friends who need prayer. This prayer took second place to the people, purposes and goals of TWI when I was in. To me this is exactly the opposite of Haggai 1. It's not those in my own house that dwell in cieled houses while this house lays waste. It's exactly opposite. It's that house that is cieled while the household lays waste. My advice from those leaving is build up your own house. You've spent far too long building up someone else's dreams, political offices, salaries, organizations. Take care of your own. Go on vacation. Take a class. Pursue a hobby you've always wanted to. Nows the time to enrich your life. If you crave service, volunteer for something not religion related. God's house will take care of itself. And the Body of Christ is much more wide, wonderful and organization independant than you know.

I tell you TWI's talent for stupidity exceeds just about any other corporation out there. With their whole treatment of the "Corps" they've managed to alienate about 95% of the people who took 4 years out of their life to go to their supposed college level training program. What other college can you attend where you are either controlled completely or ostracized? Dictated to as to who you marry? Common sense tells you it's simply ludicrous. Spouse Corps are certainly among those mistreated. A normal rational response to this would be giving TWI the middle finger.

I don't need a man to intercede between myself and God. Jesus Christ does just fine.

Or perhaps it's a reflection on the numbers TWI has reached through the years. Many in the 70's and 80's, fewer in the 90's, next to none in this decade. There's a smaller pool to draw from.

WARNING: I also will use the work "YOU" in the writing below. And all the same disclaimers about shoes and taking things personally. The whole phrase "working something until it is your own" really embodies the whole culture of plagiarism started by VPW. In academia people build foundations on other people's works, like for example psychologists are known as Freudists, Behaviorists off the foundation of Skinner + others. Never do you see the lack of citing source you do in the Way Ministry. Where is the bibliography in PFAL, RHST, or any other work published? Very few if any have this. Instead people "work it until it is their own", then act like it is their own not crediting where they got it from. If you do this in college papers, you get expelled for plagiarism. It's cheating. This is like bad. This is immoral. This is not Christian behavior described by the Bible. Do "YOU" get this? You have so many things wrong in this paragraph it's difficult to know where to start. You know VPW spoke in tongues first after going to an Oral Roberts event in Tulsa, right? He blames Oral and the crew for not helping him because he spoke languages known to him when they asked him on stage. Did he disclose this to them? No. Then someone attending the event helped him privately. J.E. Stiles. Interestingly enough Stiles wrote a book on the Holy Spirit field that Wierwille's RHST book is about 70% identical to. I mean copied directly. Buy yourself a copy of Stiles book and check for yourself. So in essence Wierwille himself was reached by Oral Roberts ministry, and plagiarized the guy who led him into tongues for one of his most important and influencial books. So Wierwille gives no credit there, no loyalty but we are supposed to give undying loyalty and support to him for compiling works of others? You really have some cult think going on there - it's a severe delusion. It wasn't an accident who I joined when. All of it was part of God's overall plan for me personally, including leaving. Thinking critically, calling a spade a spade, and exposing fraud is not "bitching". Shouting from the rooftops the despicable acts that TWI leadership does in private is not "bitching". It is speaking the truth in love. It actually has quite a lot of scriptural basis. Read all the major and minor prophets of the OT, and see if there is similar language. Maybe you ought to dial up 1-800-YO-EZEKIEL and tell him posthumously that bitterness will f him up spiritually. Oh, but wait, he didn't go to the same Advanced Class you did. Maybe you can save it for the return and the resurrection. The Red Thread teaching was done originally by .... wait for it...... .... wait for it...... Oral Roberts. Oh the irony. I'm glad it set you on fire. It was really inspirational to me too, when I first heard the teaching tape by Oral of this teaching that they played me. I think it actually may have been .... wait for it...... .... wait for it...... at the Advanced Class. Now why this fired you up for the Way Ministry as opposed to firing you up to sign up for college at ORU, is probably because of indoctrinated cult think. Do you see this? You see, when I come here to Greasespot and the forums I don't see absolute hate at all. I see people who love themselves and each other enough to tell them the truth as opposed to lying to them. I think lying to people is just a facade for hate masked in nice words and smiles. It lasts until you say or do something they don't like, then the real them comes out with a knife in the back. Where the f do you get off calling a whole bunch of people you know little of "disgruntled"? I think the people who left and are dealing with it are a whole lot less "disgruntled" than the dumb@sses still in that have to compromise their integrity every day, every decision, every little bit of control over their lives and minds that they give up. Some were so deeply affected by the fraud of the false apostles and prophets that they completely turned away from the Bible as they understand it. Some became atheists. Many didn't and have continued to nurture their relationship with God through Jesus Christ. However, this is startling if you think about it. How many normal Christian churches do you see where when people change churches or leave they become atheists? This is pretty exclusively the mark of a false apostle, a false prophet. At least it is to the non-deluded. And this concludes my letter to the editor. Peace out.

Read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", a book which you can find through recommended readings on this site. It was written from the perspective of someone trying to start a church who had no contact or knows nothing about TWI. It has a good solid exegetical scriptural basis. Coming straight from being used to looking at Greek / Hebrew / Aramaiac words in teachings its a good read and the simple fact that there is zero connection with TWI other than the scriptures and behavior being described to a "T" make it a great start.

Stupid? Sure - how about organizing witnessing efforts for years where basically you go to a mall and try to accost people shopping. We were viewed as one step below the people with clipboards that do "surveys". At least they were getting paid. Funny - I never saw any local church people through the years doing that. Their outreach happened as a direct result of what they put into the community - no need for accosting people at malls.

The international countries all work in some ways independant of NK HQ, especially w/r to money. All ABS stays in the country, rather than all of it being sent to NK and only 25% of it being allocated to the original locations (states) such as happens in the US. International countries all purchase bookstore items from NK rather than in the states the inventory in the bookstore is "fronted" to the states until purchased. However, with the command and control structure of TWI leadership, they are doing "leadership training" from NK now for all the country coordinators. This is hilarious. Someone who has never dealt with the numbers, the culture, the specific problems of an area is teaching them how they do things in NK and they are supposed to learn from it. All they really learn is how to mostly ignore NK and do their own thing, and send in letters kissing bootie. After all, the $$$ is right there at home and is not controlled.

I knew the abusive authority I was under was not God's doing, but was from wicked and unreasonable men and women who I have seen destroy many many lives. I started waking up to the fact that the only real authority they had over my life was that which I allowed. I prayed for the abuse to stop. The prayer was answered when I left, as the realization grew upon me that as long as those people have breath they will abuse. They will lie about people to destroy their reputation. They will manipulate. They will still scream and curse and belittle, despite lies about "kinder and gentler ministry". They worship their positions, which they have manipulated themselves into climbing over the backs of others just like any political or business appointment. They sell out to these positions. They bow to and kiss the ring of their superiors more than any Catholic does the Pope. And because of this they sacrifice any truth of the Word they once had in their lives. The motto of the Way Corps is no longer "It Is Written". It is "It Is Position". No person can take the truth of the Word to these leaders and read it line by line and show how it contradicts how they are living and making decisions. They won't listen, and they will take action against the messenger despite all their act seeming open to any idea. Some of the younger and next generation are biding their time until these leaders step down because they feel they are called to help and change things. They will waste their youth, life, and the opportunity cost of building something that could last. They don't realize the truth that Jesus taught that Pharisees will make disciples threefold the child of hell that they are. That's who will succeed into these positions. Not the purehearted and genuine. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. These young people will learn they are not greater than the scriptures, and can't "believe" to overcome the evil. If Jesus Christ couldn't except by dying and that was to lead people to a better way, they cannot.

Numbers are too small. All are together - it's probably been 10 years now at least. They were all at Gunnison until about 3 yrs ago, now all are in New Knoxville at the HQ.

Or when they kick you out for being a lesbian when you know damn well you're not the President. Because she can be one, AND have 2 other "former" lesbians living in one bedroom in her basement sleeping in one bed together without anyone daring to ask questions. What does the Starship Enterprise, 3 squares of toilet paper, and your Corps leadership have in common? They are all hanging around Uranus looking for Klingons. :P

"Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them." -Albert Einstein

Hammy, you're severely disturbed. Yet joining you in this analysis is oddly compelling. Which speaks to me being severely disturbed as well. This interpretation is among the most compelling, as replacing the initial phrase with "DOUCHEBAGS!!!!!" would seem to preserve the intent. You have captured the correct genitive. However, equally as important standing out is the figure of speech hypocatastasis. This is the strongest of the comparison figures of speech. You could say "like a douchebag" for minimal comparison, "is a douchebag" for medium comparison, or "bags of douche" as the strongest comparison. The figure of speech involved implies the genitive of character. While the genitive of origin and analysis from TWI having a female president could have certain implications that could accurately be considered, overall the intent is not preserved through genitive of origen. Of the genitive of possession, you could say the *positions* contain douche, although more accurately you would need the plural there - the *positions* contain *douches*, which the plural agreement there brings it right back to the genetive of character again. This is possible. The question is, if you replaced these people in *positions* literally with Summer's Eve, would it actually change anything? Hmmmm, thoughts to ponder. No, this can't be it. The contents of a bag would be far more cleansing than your typical STS tape, class, or rag article. Overall Hammy, a very thorough and insightful commentary.

Other churches were teaching plenty back in the 70s. VPW himself went to an Oral Roberts seminar to learn to SIT. He was brought out on stage, etc. Then met Stiles in a coffee shop. VPW kind of founded a ministry out of other people's work. If you look at Stiles book on receiving the holy spirit, 70% of it is plagiarized in RHST. But that was VPW's way - survey the plenty of teaching out there, take parts of it and claim them as his own, then loudly trumpet the uniqueness of his teaching to elevate his standing. His successors have either mimic'd that or reverted back to the traditions of the elders as any dead denomination does. Other churches can and will fall into virtually everything TWI is accused of. Leaders in churches have the same human nature and pride that any of the TWI leaders have. You regularly hear of power plays, sex scandals, political oustings, etc. You see the worst of religion in TWI. You see the worst of political struggling and power plays in the business world in TWI. At times you see the same in churches. Once people are saved by grace, their next step is to place themselves above their brother to judge. This type of logic is commonly used to keep people in TWI. "This is as good as it gets". "This organization isn't perfect, but it's the best available". "There are things you won't like about any group". TWI is worse than just about anything else you can find because of the controlling nature of it. To participate in classes, you need to disclose financial information that is nobody's business. People are involved in way too much to dictate what is done in personal lives. Plus on every level the bribery-based approval of the leader. It empowers some to place themselves above their brother to judge. And that leads to devestation. Look - you can join a church and attend for a while. Then you can leave and go to another church. Most of your friends will remain friends. You can buy and sell houses, do business ventures, go to school and get a loan. None of this changes things. Not so with TWI. Only there will you find people who you've known for 20 years who will no longer speak to you. "I have no friends when it comes to the Word". There is the attitude of an elitist. There is a pull that is unhealthy. This attitude separates families, friends, marriages. It is definitely worse than a very large number of choices that could be made. People are young and tired too. And in the case of TWI, the doctrine is old and tired. As is all the political posturing and bribery that is interwoven into their "household".

The more distance I get and critical thinking skills I develop again I start to see how so much of this is indoctrination or behavioral conditioning. It is marketed as helping people develop good "believer" habits, the 5 fundamentals, etc. There is a difference between free learning and conditioning. The Word is meant to work from the inside out, from the heart directing the steps, yet in actuality it's all driven by a schedule, a weekly and monthly calendar, and a curriculum that is all geared towards establishing dependency on this group.

There never was a great deal of substance taught in the Corps training. The first 5 years were inception years, no curriculum, great deal of contact with VP, work / study program like you had. The second decade was Emporia years - when they were spinning up the College program they put together actual classes with a syllabus and teacher. Teachers had to have a degree and be a Corps grad - there were probably less than 20 faculty. This was when there were even defined classes with grades. I don't think there were any PhD teachers of classes - Don W was the only one I'm aware of. The third decade was fog year recovery decade - this was when you went thru the family Corps it appears. LCM driven. There were a few unofficial classes during that time - history, Greek, public speaking. Little one to two day seminar types of things - song leading, etiquette, firearms safety. Most recent training follows a similar course but the minutae is focused on. For example, 30 hours of working on a personal incident 1 on 1. To produce the refined but boring that is the mark of this administration of TWI leaders. All in all, the program really wasn't to educate. It was to break down and indoctrinate. To build unquestioning loyalty to an organization and group of people (Directors). To set up a pecking order in an organization. And to place graduates on a hamster wheel of climbing over one another for position and title. Sure there were benefits to doing it - discipline, habits, reading the Bible consistently, praying consistently. It actually was an ingenious scam. The hook was the idea that you could build Marine-Corps-like commitment to God. The actuality was that they built Marine-Corps-like commitment to man. And those men, (and women), were less than stellar examples of a Christian life, to put it mildly.

Yeah, really. It makes you wonder, was that the followup to his homo binge?