chockfull

What a tremendous thread our wonderful OldSkool has started. It just makes me feel wonderful all over, and so thankful for what a tremendous day we have in which to reflect upon the wonderfulness of this tremendous group that we used to be a part of. It is just so wonderfully, wonderfully, tremendously wonderful that it makes me want to smile, restrict my adjectives, and go off to drink some of that tremendously wonderful kool-aid they have around there. - tremendously chockfull

You see, you guys are built-in strategic thinkers. Now this would be perhaps the only instance in existance of a STS video playback that doesn't suck. In fact, if they would apply this type of forwards thinking also to their mandatory STS phone hookups, then there also we would have the first phone hookup in history that doesn't suck.

You know, I "lost" my copy of that a long time ago. But remembering back, the one thing that seems to stick in my mind (I've repressed all the Forehead bad ballet) is that "stately and powerful" category of devil spirits. Because that's exactly how the leadership of TWI acts and prances about, like they are all that.

Yeah, there's nothing like leaving a cult to find out who your real friends aren't. I remember thinking to myself that these people never really were my friends anyway, and they're just showing their true colors now. I remember thinking that I needed to get myself some new friends who were a better caliber of people. And once I dropped the egotistical condescending attitude towards other Christians I started to see better quality people around me in the same neighborhood that I ever found across the world in TWI. I found people from other religions who live far more of the intent of God in the Bible than the frauds I found in the Way. I found that there is a great side to humanity as well, not just an evil side. I'm so glad I'm not blinded by false teachings any more and the ego they stoked within my soul.

Nice verse WordWolf. That certainly seems to be the pattern. Oh, and here's another thought along those lines. When you start to take a look at the Romans verse they use to teach their debt stance and policy, and look at the context of it, it really lines up more with what we're talking about here and Jesus' teaching at the sermon on the mount concerning oaths than it does about financial issues. Render to every man respect, honor where it's due, owe no man anything except love. It's not God's intent for people to be bound up to one another by vows, subservient to their whims, acting in a worshipping fashion towards another human being. You see that with Rosalie. She has such a hierarchical chain of people clamoring over one another for positions. People worship the ground she walks on by their actions, attitudes, speech. They value their relationship with her over anything else in life, almost. It's sick. It's delusional. It's not healthy. It promulgates the evil side of human nature. But it is a political survival tactic for them. They see how people are cast out and ostracized who stand up to her. There is a much better way to live. Where if a person earns your respect, you give it. Where if they do something honorable you show them honor. Where love is forefront as opposed to obligation and being bound by your "salt covenant" to stand with Rosalie no matter what. So stop it with the whole vow behavior. Jesus Christ managed to live his life and save all of mankind without vowing vows to people. Sure he was committed to his Father. He let his yes mean yes and his no mean no. And when something came up that he had a hard time saying yes to, he spent some hours in a garden talking it out and getting it straight. People need to be more Christ-like and less cult-like.

Yeah, really. I mean, who knew that the Bible was really there only to uphold and reinforce the ideas and aspirations of a certain few who place themselves above others?

Yeah - B to the S - ay. Cop out - meaning to back out of one's commitment, or to avoid the fulfillment of a promise or responsibility. One interesting Biblical study (not that we're here to do interesting Biblical studies) is looking into the whole "swearing an oath" concept throughout the Bible. Of course, the whole Ecc. 5:4 "when you vow a vow, defer not to pay it" concept in the "duty of man" book is a good general Biblical principle. However, it is OT, which is law based. So is there a principle in the NT that is grace based that explains more of God's intention for vows since Jesus Christ? When you look a little closer, in the NT grace based period, it's pretty clear that God's intention is not that Christians go around vowing vows to each other and placing each other under obligation to pay up. Check out the sermon on the mount - Matt. 5:33 - 37. This is Jesus setting the contrast between the law and what he came to bring. Matt 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. One of the problems with human beings and this whole vow thing is that when one person has another under an obligation they have power over them. Jesus encouraged followers not to swear all these oaths and vows to bind themselves, but instead just simply say "yes I'll do that" or "no I won't do that". You see living in this fashion is more honest and keeps people from holding the vow thing over your head, changing the terms of the vow, and forcing your compliance. That is TWI. This whole Corps thing, including the "vow" of a lifetime of Christian service, these litte Napoleans and Queen Elizabeth types can just keep changing the terms, enacting new edicts, placing God's people under greater and greater bondage, and all the while holding the Corps feet to the fire due to some Old Testament obligation to not defer to pay their vows. That's legalism at it's ugliest. That is what Jesus was teaching "whatsoever is more than this cometh of evil". And you see that is what Paul was talking about when he refused to allow himself to be placed under those kind of ridiculous obligations. His prayer was to be delivered from "wicked and unreasonable men". And even in the OT it's pretty easy to see that God's heart isn't bondage. Jacob and Laban are a story of this nature - where Jacob put himself under a vow for working, and Laban would change his wages and take advantage of Jacob. Now Jacob stuck it out as that was OT law, and God rewarded him. But Laban was the evil one there. And this fits across the board with TWI. The ones who are evil here is TWI leadership. Imposing all these vows upon people, changing their wages and requirements, sucking up more and more of their lives. I finally got up enough courage to live under grace, and say "no I won't do that". To say "you've moved the boundaries so far from normal litle by little that it is no longer God's will for my life". So God delivered me from wicked and unreasonable men. And living in grace opens up whole new vistas of opportunity. Despite all the turds who want to wish consequences upon your life. I mean just think about it - is wishing consequences upon another person, especially another Christian even a remotely Christian thought or expression?

Usually CEO's in an organization are responsible for a strategy that promotes the health and growth of the organization. She has no ability in that respect, so the only thing left is to fall back to that which was before and enshrine it. Have you heard the phrase "we're going to run on the rails that brought us here?" anywhere? In reality, that is saying "we don't know what the f we're doing, so we're going to do nothing and rely on the existing structure". Then they pretend they are being kinder and gentler. But a leopard can't change its spots.

"This is God's ministry!" !!!!!??????? Well then give it the f back.

Clouds of mystery pourin' confusion on the ground. Good men through the ages tryin' to find the sun. Priceless, skyrider.

Jock ballet - Men in Tights 3

This authority thing really is key to understanding TWI and the influence it had over us. TWI's authority is an illusion. It is a false authority. They say their authority is from God and that going against it will cause people to suffer consequences. But they lie. People moving beyond that mind control do NOT suffer consequences. They are better off. When putting this all together I came to the conclusion that people of this nature have no more authority over my life than I allow them to have. And I do not want to allow people with poor morals operating sketchy Christian ethics who absolutely do not have my best interests in mind to have that kind of authority over my life. So I decided that I could no longer permit them to have that authority over myself and my loved ones. And although that transition hasn't been easy, my life has gotten a little better every day since. I'm taking back my life one day at a time. God is restoring to me the years the worms have eaten (Joel 2:25).

IMO you can measure nose angle. At 90 degrees you have a normal person. As it becomes elevated above 120 degrees, that's average TWI innie height :-)

Oh absolutely. Lying is standard practice in TWI leadership. I have been lied to straight to my face by many top leaders. Theirs is an ethics of expediency, which is how they justify their lies to themselves - "so the ministry is not blamed". And their own political gains and aspirations are viewed as protecting the ministry. Great atrocities are performed, huge dishonestly promulgated, all with that little justification. And people buy it. And others, myself included, somehow just didn't focus on that and those things would slip right on by. Like that RR example of the 2000 Corps meeting. Good words and fair speeches, and they deceive the simple. It really makes you wonder how some people so accustomed to dealing in lies make a living off selling the truth.

Actually, it does. It's called "unfriending" someone. It works fabulously, like a can of Raid on an ant trail. Or for friend requests, it's "deny". But I know what you mean. Seeing all those mugs and their fake words raises my ire.

The Corps degree has never been accredited. To be accredited you actually have to have people with an accredited doctorate on your staff teaching. They've chased off anyone with that potential. I personally have seen this to be a major problem in many, many areas where Corps program graduates that do not have another degree previously try and use it to go to school or in other areas like education. Many of the non-degreed jobs in education are starting to require certain numbers of college credits. People try and call up Robin M and get some form of record, transcript, etc. There is NO record that exists, no record of classes, training, nothing documented. They can't be helped. In any kind of educational or professional sense it was a sheer waste of time. Even a po-dunc little theological seminary like you can find all over the place does better than that - they keep records of students, classes, and are at least regionally accredited.

No one has what TWI has - in a sense that is true. A plagiarized foundation, a legacy of adultery, a legalistic controlling culture, and an elitist attitude in spite of all of that. Yet in another sense, not so true. David Koresh had that, the Moonies and Jehovah's Witnesses do, and several of the offshoot Mormon groups. Wherever you see people with spiritual authority, a large ego, and low morals, they have that as well. And you see the sheep walking about as if in a trance as well. Nowhere to go - an outright lie. As OldSkool shared, almost any direction that you travel away is a better place to go. Because you take back your life and the authority over it you relinquished to those who didn't deserve it.

The main problem with all the TWI leadership's "center of God's will" argument is that it is really used interchangeably with "the center of Rosie's will", or whatever leader is using that phrase to impose their will upon the unsuspecting victim. It really means "doing exactly what that leader wants you to do". Yet when you examine their lives with that kind of scrutiny it is so far from holding up. I mean I guess maintaining a harem besides one's wife would be "towards the edge of God's will"????? Or how about marking and avoiding or placing on probation anyone that disagrees with you consistently? Spending $20K/yr of ABS on liability insurance for your top officers? I could go on. Jesus Christ taught us to know people by their fruit. Yes, absolutely the "center of God's Will" is nothing more or less than language of control. Because they equate themselves to God. And don't even measure up to an average Christian in how they treat people. Or for that matter an average Muslim or Buddhist.

Irrefutable logic. Thus, I too, am ready for Ted.

I absolutely agree with you on clergy abuse. One of the main problems there is that unlike other types of professionals such as psychiatrists, lawyers, etc, clergy do not have a governing body that has the power to review their actions and revoke their license to continue to be a professional in their field.

I can actually get a mind picture of this. This is disturbing. But then again it could just be that I've watched "Men Who Stare At Goats" recently. (Runs off to ensure Boston is playing in the background)

Besides all the outrage at the letter, and distraction trying to reason with shiftthis, I did want to say that I'll pray with/for you and your daughters.

I can confirm virtually everything on this list, as I was present or very aware of most of it. More details about her "confronting" the Corps at AC Special 2000 - she did not do this in a formal meeting that was planned out, but appeared in the back of the reception hall at a reception where people(Corps) were talking, and drinking punch and having cake, where very few people had paper or notebooks to be able to record what she said or take any notes. She sat down at a small two-person table at the back, got a microphone and began talking. Ha$rve Pl@tig was her little puppy dog sidekick. She deflected all criticism from herself by confronting the Corps on not confronting LCM on his philandering. Most Corps had no idea of it, and were duly shocked. The timing also was shocking. But from court records that indirectly refer to specific depositions by LCM, Rosalie herself had specific knowledge of LCM's philandering that is documented in 1995, 5 years earlier. This was quite a tactic to put suspicion off of herself and onto other unsuspecting people. As I recall, nobody even questioned this until at least 5 years later. You can actually see here the political craftiness and astuteness of the woman. Quite a remarkably executed strategy. The "kinder, gentler Way" propaganda is not new. It started then in 2000, with her having people to stop yelling like LCM did. Which is fine - all the little idiots screaming their heads off needed to develop better people skills, I'm sure myself included. But she had other people do her dirty work for her - and axed people. She is ruthless - has no qualms about putting whole families out on the street for her political gains. The Mona Vie example is just one in a series of many. I mean the kinder, gentler thing is good, IF you don't have to fear for your life like living in a Communist regime that if you would dare to voice an opinion different from the Communist government that you would disappear in the night. But that's what you see when an organization just doesn't know the direction to go - can't figure out the right strategy to execute to survive. They turn on each other, bite and devour and consume one another, and people get defamed, slandered, sent out in disgrace on assignments with little resources, money, ability to live in the real world. That woman, and her lust for power, and her evil little schemes based upon an abhorrent mind, are perhaps one of the greatest things wrong with TWI right now. And she has little goose-steppers as well ready to step right in and continue their pattern of abuse when she's gone. Men who have sold their souls for the title they possess and the closeness of the relationship with her they enjoy. These to me are among some of the many things I anticipate the righteousness of God taking care of at the return of Jesus Christ. No longer will corrupt people usurp power in the name of the Lord and Savior - every knee shall bow and the Righteous Judge will judge.

shiftthis, These are not allegations about Rosalie Rivenbark having two women who professed to be former lesbians living in a one-bedroom apartment in the basement of her home. These are facts. It's known by virtually everyone that was on staff during that time period. Their names are JM and SC. They shared the same bed in Rosalie's home. For more than a year. When Rosalie was questioned about this apparant contradiction between the doctrine and her practices, her response has been that they said they were delivered (which either was a lie or was very well known to Rosalie to be a lie), and when additional questions are asked she relays messages telling the person to shut up. There are threads here on GS detailing known facts concerning this. The two women (Janet and Sharon) exchanged rings on the anniversaries of knowing one another. Rosalie and Donna M. themselves have a very at best questionable relationship especially considering the facts available. I know that it's much easier for you to discount facts when they don't align with what you believe. It's much easier to call all of the people on GS possessed and go on about your merry little way. But it doesn't change the truth of the matter, and if you truly believe that God is just, honest, righteous, then you at some point will be responsible for your response to this information. Can God still bless you for your actions and heart in spite of people in leadership over you who are not worth a beggar's spit? Yes He can. But some day when the corruption in these people eventually finds you, you will understand.

The Way's current research department is one guy part time. They have no current Aramaic skills. Bernita Jess was the last who did. Those who did the work on the Aramaic publications have been run off. One of them posts here. I don't know what they would do at a joint Aramaic Studies Symposium except stand around and pick their nose. They certainly couldn't intelligently discuss Aramaic translations - nobody there knows anything about it.