chockfull

I'm glad this thread surfaced again - so much awesomeness. The only possible thing that could possibly be added to it is a little more cowbell: http://is.gd/cyDPI And to dedicated it to Skip Mesquite.

Hand raised. Eventually common sense took over, and I figured out that the only reason for the meeting was the people, so I stopped doing that. But common sense is so hard to come by in TWI.

Well I suppose that's one way to put it. I'm not so sure that's the best way to communicate that He came to make available the new birth, wherewith the law is written in a man's heart and not just on the scrolls. Romans is an interesting piece of work there in that respect. Think of the audience.

So critical textualism is an interesting field, and from my observations is kind of a combination of anthropology, archaeology, and theology. One interesting thing to consider when going back and forth over which was the "original" language of the NT is from an anthropology type viewpoint. Many of the people of that time were bilingual and trilingual. We certainly have fine examples of this today in many regions of the world. Europeans typically speak 2 or 3 languages. Residents of India usually speak at least a local dialect and English in school. And there are so many more examples. In NT times from what I have put together from anthropology readings, like those done by Alfred Edersheim, is that the languages around Jerusalem during the Messiah's time seems to have been Aramaiac for everyday conversation, Hebrew for the educated, and Greek was the occupied language as well as the language of business or trade. Most of the 12 apostles would have spoken mostly Aramaiac. Few of those would have had a great deal of education, so Hebrew would have been less understood. And Greek would have been understood less, used functionally to interact with local government and probably the business or trade language locally. It is no stretch that writings by these would most likely have been Aramaiac. Also, later letters in the NT such as Hebrews and James, just by their content and who they address were most likely written in Hebrew. Paul/Saul himself was very unique from a language perspective. He was not a Greek native, as clearly mentioned in one of his letters to Timothy who was half Greek. The common speculation was that Timothy assisted Paul in original Greek translation work. Paul was highly educated under Gamaliel, so had the education, language and background to speak, write, lecture in Hebrew, and did consistently in his travels. He undoubtedly spoke Aramaiac as part of the common language at home. However, Tarsus as a city was on a trade route in the Greek world, so it is highly probably that Paul growing up would also have been exposed to more Greek in the business world than someone raised elsewhere. He was "free born", meaning Greek citizenship. Paul was most likely trilingual and possibly spoke more languages than that. He also in his philosophy of travels stated that he "became all things to all men". Undoubtedly this practice would have carried over into the language realm. It is not a stretch of the imagination to picture that Paul's letters to primarily Greek cities of converts, like Corinth, Romans, Philippi, Colosse would have logically been penned in Greek first. They were to primarily Greek speaking converts. Some of the other cities it may not be so clear. Possibly those letters may have been Aramaiac originally. And as they were encouraged to be passed around surely they would have been translated back and forth as they were passed. The gospel writers most textualists place as doing that work as a history book written around 90 - 100AD. At least 3 of them with the exception of the physician it's highly likely they did their work in Aramaiac first. Luke's work has some aspects of phrasing that are poetic / subtle in the Greek that leads at least me to believe it was likely to have been done in Greek first as opposed to Aramaiac, as translated works many times don't evidence that. But that is just IMO personally. Either way with respect to us today, it is highly likely that the versions we have access to may have been translated back and forth between more than one language. And then there's the Gideons, whose mission is to translate it into local language and place it near the traveler. Interpretation and reading is up to the traveler. Just a few culture and common sense points to consider in discussion.

Cool, man! Glad to see you still around!

I wonder what has become of our good friend Dr. James Trimm here with the anti-semitism questions? He seemed to get all excited about posting here, and then disappeared. I guess some of your research types are more comfortable with interacting with thousand year old texts than they are with people.

This is an example of Dumb and Dumberer. You notice how RR or any Prez of TWI has never apologized for anything? Because they are never wrong? Well this is the learned behavior that is passed on down to the in-rez Corps. The Way, a people business, and people skills, couldn't be further apart.

A GED and a clean pair of overalls? Well, you know how the movie "Dumb and Dumber" came out in 1994? And then the sequel "Dumb and Dumberer: When Harry Met Lloyd" came out in 2003? Yeah, kind of like that.

double post

Oh, and what is even funnier than the STS at HQ is watching this "prevailing practice" unfold at other root locations. Or at least it used to be funnier because now their numbers have shrunk up to the point where they don't DO STS at other root locations. Actually they don't have other "root" locations any more. Camp Gunnison is scaled back to a camping place for Wayfers, including classes. Actually, the Way has more shrinkage than George Costanza on a certain episode of Seinfeld. So you have "Big Cheese #1" at HQ doing all the STS. Then you have "Little Cheese #2" at a root location. They want to be just like the big cheesy. So they diligently apply themselves to duplicate all the minute and the mundane of the STS at HQ because it "sets the pattern". Except at HQ at least you have a few people rotating in to read cards off the stage. The different pitches of the monotonous tones at least has the potential to keep you from snoozing. And at HQ you have a machine behind the musicians, along with the guiding hand of Rosie over it all to ensure all of it is gay enough to attract the attention of comedians on cable (see GS front page for example). Not so at Little Cheesy central. What do you have for music? Chicks wearing drapes. People with extremely low talent and extremely high ego. But they are "blessed" to be among the few that have the nose buried up little cheesy so they can perform. What do you have for teaching? Suck@ge central. Because anyone with enough lips on service to achieve the Little Cheesy position has long ago given up any vestige of personality they once ever had. It is a literal comedy of imitation. With a captive audience. Because of course, you know since they have the no escape during STS policies at HQ, we absolutely have to have them at Little Cheesy Central. The brain. It can be washed, it just can't be dressed up and taken out.

Way Corps vs. Marine Corps OK - the original thought or idea was marketed to be something like "we see these highly trained people with life and death commitment that will give their life for their country, what about people doing the same thing for God?" And many of us flocked to the idea. We wanted to have that commitment to God. We believed what these leaders were telling us. We obeyed what they said, we sacrificed what they said, we changed what they said, we moved when they said, and we did it all largely on a volunteer basis. And then you find yourself years down the road and you wonder how you got there. Your family has long been left behind. Your friends are only people in similar responsibilities because you can't really be friends with people and minister to them - they lose respect. Your career you've never focused on. Your education you forsook to do this thing that didn't even give you a transcript that you can use if you want to get educated later. I've heard plenty of people / Corps say I gave the best years of my life to the Way ministry, now I have nothing. The Way ministry has no loyalty to them. It will discard them in an instant. Geez I know people who have been dropped, discarded, then hung around begging for scraps, and have gone back through the program again - 8 years instead of 4 - all to have their status back to "active". What do they have to show for it? A d@mn piece of paper that I can print up for $1.39 at a print shop? They seem like lemmings, that will run right off a cliff if led in that direction and others are going there. If it actually stood for something that might be different. But you see these people, they've done this for 20, 30, 40 years and the fruit they produce in their lives is just putrid. You see Jesus' teachings about leaders being servants and then you see these clowns arranging everyone else around them and their convenience, using people up and spitting them out, demanding absolutely everything and giving little or nothing to them. You see politics like you scarcely do in the world, even in a bad economy. You see lies, and more lies. You see people selling their soul for a piece of bread. You see people whose greatest excitement in life is "how close" their relationship is to the top doggette. God it just all makes me want to throw up for days. Worse than food poisoning. And these false ministers I know makes God's stomach just as sick. Saying they are speaking for God and feeding their own belly with lust for power and position. The Marines is just a whole different category. The military is a career, a way up and out, a way to obtain money for education if you don't have it. People know signing up that fighting for your country you have to deploy. They do it, they move, but they also have a career. They can serve their country for 20 years, retire, then have a second career with 2 incomes. Basic training - what 13 weeks? Then you go to a different training? Couple of schools - jump school, ammo, mechanics, computers, whatever. Try putting "The Way" on a resume. Watch the puzzling looks ensue. Why did you move so much? Do you have a criminal record? So you worked in the kitchen for years? Did you go to culinary school? No? Computer experience with latest software? No? You used Word Pefect? Is that still around? You were a "manager"? What did you "manage"? I mean it just takes so much work to translate any of that BS into something that is "real". I mean, no wonder there's splinter groups. You kick a bunch of these guys out and what are they going to do? Move down the road, use their influence with the people they've built a relationship with by not hiding out in an office, and try to keep working as a minister. Record a couple classes on video. Start a newsletter, travel to visit people. "Ordain" other people so they feel important and are committed to help you further your ends. Do you think God needs all that? He doesn't need money - He's God. He doesn't need you to bring Him lunch. He just wants your love, your fellowship, your allegiance. Talk to Him. All this other BS is just like the Tower of Babel. People scurrying around like little ants building up a tower to see if they by their designs can reach up to God. "But people are blessed in my tower I've built. But see how much higher they are than the other humans around?" Eventually that reasoning will lead to "let's start a war". The Marine Corps. It's a career, it's a lifestyle. It's an attitude. Semper Fi - oorah. It's tough. It is what it is, and doesn't bill to be anything different. The Way Corps? It's a frickin' house of cards, man. It's built upon hype, a lie, an image in a mind, a plastic green marble colored nametag that only you are allowed to wear at certain events. An assignment letter every year. And a bunch of bondage. Be willing to change anything and everything about yourself for the privilege to "minister to God's people". Or rather follow someone who doesn't deserve to be followed, and foster co-dependents all across the planet. God doesn't want that. That's not Jesus Christ, and no man can lay a genuine foundation except it be upon Jesus Christ.

You're right. It was Bill Maize / Maze. Sorry.

You'd lose that bet. There is more of this than you'd know of the top TWI leadership who have some serious character flaw BS in their background. They are owned lock stock and 2 smoking barrels by TWI due to the knowledge of certain damaging information. They sell out, and it's a bribe.

never was pressured personally. after in some cases asked people if they'd thought about it, but didn't take it further than that. some did go after thinking about it - i doubt due to anything i did.

waysider inspired me to do an in-rez diary version: 5:30am - wake up, coffee, read Bible. I am not a morning person. I am not waysider. Please don't talk to me. Try to work on spiritual partner letter. All I can write is "I.....am....still.......sleeepy......." 6:00am - morning run - CP#3. A couple miles has the "potential" to actually wake me up. Maybe. 6:30am - shower, shave, etc. 6:59:59am - Travel through entry doors to breakfast. The second hand on the clock knows me. I am not late to breakfast. Breakfast sucks. Warm gruel again. No coffee. 7:15am - Someone at breakfast table is presenting a teaching on their early morning studies. Trying to resist the urge to slam their face into their gruel. It's not good to have anger issues this early in the morning. 7:45am - "wah, wah wah wah wah" - what I picked up from Corps coordinator's comments at end of breakfast. High amount of words, low amount of meaningful content. 8:00am - off to work program. Oh joy. What will it be today? Peeling potatoes? Or scrubbing toilets? But before working, I apparently need to hear another teaching as the two at breakfast have not sufficed. What do I need to hear today before working? Yes, Obedience. How it equals believing. How doing exactly what you are told is obedience, and believing. How doing more than you are told is disobedience and unbelief. We cannot have any free thought involved with working. That would be wrong. That would be insubordination. That would show up on my job evaluation review. That would require a one on one teaching from my Corps coordinator. 12:00 - 1:30 - Lunchtime - the one decent meal a day - looking for a table with a family with a bunch of kids so I can take advantage of seconds. 1:45 - 5:00 - study time. I get to a) go over the STS again - as if it wasn't boring enough the first time. b) Blue book - the dead horse isn't quite dead enough yet, apparently c) study the FNC again - because justifying some of those leaps of logic really require some intense effort. Kind of like learning how to dance. Around topics. d) Research Corps Night notes. All of those options sux0rs. I know, I'll study something I'm actually interested in. And on my study time report, I'll tell them what they want to hear. This way I can avoid another lecture. Note: morning and afternoon vary, switch, involve classes, sometimes full day workdays on a project where it's a little more fun than the routine drivel, etc. 5:00pm - supper time. Note that it's not lunch and dinner, it's dinner and supper. Why? Because in the midwest po-dunk hicksville German culture, that's what it's called. And so therefore is an unwritten rule at all location areas. Because we must learn not only to imitate the VP's study and teaching habits, we also must live in an environment where culture and personal habits conform. 5:45pm - dishroom / dining room duty. Oh joy. And I'm paying to be here!!! 7:00pm - no time to change - class starts. We are taking the FNC - AGAIN! Because the 82 times I already took it on the field it didn't quite sink in. Nevermind the fact that people are already imitating all the stupid little phrases and expressions like little dumb@$$ yorkshire terriers. "Thot's roight!!!!" I'm sure there's some underlying great fantastic life changing truth that will come out of it this time. Boy, did you recognize the principle of "scripture buildup" in the 4 crucified teaching? I did. Aren't I spiritual? 10pm - aftermeeting - a bunch of people in a room. a few attention wh0r3s. a microphone. what - could - possibly - be - better - than - this? I know - an elbow shot to the ribs when someone's hand goes up. 11:15 - ish - bedtime, re-arranging clothes, writing more spiritual partner letters until fall asleep. waiting for the next glorious day. NOTE: you know, I really need to work on this censorship stuff. I mean what if like, my Corps coordinator snuck in my room and read through my journal or something? They wouldn't do that, would they? After all they just walk by revelation. Nobody ever spies on people around here or anything. I mean the k1ss - @$$ sneaking out of the Corps coordinator's residence trying to exchange the dirt for a one-up assignment at graduation is just motivated by the love of God, right?

yes. I remember USENET and 300 baud modems. I would postulate to you that the most effective and efficient way to present a response is to formulate it in a way that it will be read, as opposed to a way that it will not be read. The problems with carrying on a conversation in this fashion are as follows: 1) Utilizing 20 years of pre-compiled arguments is that you place the others you are discussing the topic with at a disadvantage as they don't have 20 years worth of pre-compiled arguments. If you do this consistently, people will stop conversing with you. 2) Without reviewing and editing the pre-compiled arguments so that they exactly match the discussion you are having it is a shotgun approach - there is content both on topic and off topic. Many specific questions in the conversation are not answered, just loose high level topics are matched up. 3) Messages on forums to be considerate of fellow posters should be short and to the point with links to external background information should participants in the discussion choose to want more background information. This respects everyone's time as equally valuable. With the shotgun approach, you are indirectly communicating that your time is more valuable than others on a forum so you don't want to spend it editing ideas you've had 20 years ago to make them pertinent to the current conversation. So as an engineer's son, my challenge to you is this. If you design the most perfectly constructed bridge that nobody will travel over, of what genuine value is it? The location of a bridge is at least as important as the engineering of the bridge.

Looks like Cap'n DriveBy had to go back underground so the WayGB wouldn't find out he'd been posting on GS.

European Dance Remix:

I'm going with the "Urban Dictionary" style commentary on this. You'll have to excuse me as I don't have stores of commentary to draw upon to flesh out all thoughts in more detail. So in other words the Torah says you can't divorce your wife unless she is full of $h1t. (all right, liberal translation of 'unclean matter'). Jesus taught that the only reason you think your wife is full of $h1t is that you were full of $h1t first. So climb down off your horse and work it out, dude. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- There, how am I doing? Do I have a future in Rabbinic interpretation?

pro - cough cough - fessional - cough hack cough - experience? my how the resume inflates with the passage of time. Did he actually get certified for that course through Carnegie? sorry - my personal respect for the dude is quite a few rungs lower. and I believe he was the one exactly responsible for the abomination I heard that the first reference on this thread was about. same philosophy and very similar process. edit until the vanilla has no taste. actually the stupidest part about it is going through all that and still having people shuffle 5x8's on the lectern. I mean invest in a teleprompter for chrissakes. one of those can even make charles barkley look not stupid at times. i mean with one of those i can actually hear joel olsteen while admiring the high quality of his dental work all at the same time. but common sense and the way are miles apart. hmmm. lemmeseee. a person of shall we say, her "persuasion" has the effect of neutering anything male within a 500 mile radius? who would have thought? i would agree that they are timeless in that 10 minutes after you experience a teaching you absolutely will never remember one thing about it any time later for the rest of your life.

The main thing that is wrong with all of that is how it's transformed over time. They used to have the Dale Carnegie course in public speaking taught in the Corps by Larry Mize. This was good and a necessary introduction to people who weren't as comfortable speaking in front of others. They tried to carry that on with the Forehead teaching it and the only drawback there was too much ego and too little credentials - never being trained in all of that beyond taking the course. Kind of the core idea behind those courses was that to get over self-consciousness, you had to "re-live the incident". When you're 100% focused on retelling a story all the mechanics are less important. And it comes off as real too. But in today's TWI which seems to be most concerned with removing the flavor from vanilla, the more hands that touch a real moment the less real it becomes. This is the reason why their STS and magazine articles absolutely blow. Along with all of these prepackaged sharings. They actually allowed the FNC teachers to tell a couple incidents and stories, although they come off as pretty canned as well. You know, if you really want to cultivate a farm of little robots, RR, take your fat @$$ over to China and crank up the little operation over there, where they are used to a culture of subjugation. Here in America - the land of the free and the home of the brave, people will just tell you to shove it.

Carrying on conversation. Matthew 19:8 and Mark 10:5 carry the idea that the Messiah and his teachings were superseding the Torah. Thoughts?

Haha - so much so they fired the people that worked on it or drove them off. One of them whose screen name is penworks posts here.

I remember running into one of these little Waybots on "ho-ho relo" one year. They were oh so proud of their little personal incident related to the deliverance they had experienced taking the Foundational Class. They bragged to me how their Corps Coordinator spent 32 hours helping them one on one perfect their little incident. When they told it, it was boring, vanilla, dull. Sounded just like the Sunday Teaching Services. I thought to myself, "well they're certainly churning them out a lot stupider, that's for sure". Yeah, you don't belong in the Corps. You actually have a brain. Researching Romans? WTF were you thinking?