chockfull

Abigail, what are "Noadic laws"??? I mean I don't need to go out and start building myself an ark now, do I? I mean boat parking is expensive enough as it is for even small ones. Sheesh.

Nice thread, Twinky. Too many people seem to start out with good intentions the same way Roy / year2027 does, but then go immediately astray. Roy says "God first". Then usually some kind message that he loves us. Most of the opportunists say "God first. Pay me second". For me, I'll stick with Roy's interpretation

Sunesis, That's what we need in any day and time. You see roots and blossoms here and there. But it just seems to get bound up in legalism and human vice so quickly. I only wish that we all can find a small section of that somewhere in life. -cf

Well the one thing that you could never say about Joe Smith is that he didn't have an active imagination.

Well, now, that's good to hear. At least she is getting some original, non-censored, thought-out content that is actually published out somewhere that people can read it. Now contrast that with what she's putting out through President's Publications. (whitespace). Wow, and at GS you don't even need to pay them slave wages, monitor their potty breaks, or subject them to rigorous control.

Actually I've long thought that there are a great deal of similarities between JW's and TWI - some of my distant relatives are JW's. More of a "feel" type of thing rather than all of the details of the beliefs. They are very autocratically run - a lot of micromanagement The Watchtower Society rules with a heavy hand. They make ex-communication a real threat, and the fear of this keeps members in line. There is mandated witnessing, all handing out that Awake and Watchtower magazine tract. (TWI will dispute 'mandated' witnessing, there it's both peer pressured and just 'scheduled in' - to me, same thing). If you look at the publications, the Watchtower magazine and artwork all is really dumbed down - like it is an elementary Sunday school publication in the artwork, and 6th grade reading in the articles. They are kind of seperatist, which TWI denies, but really is as well, especially when you get to all of those kooks on the farm in Ohio. JW's do the holistic medicine thing, and holistic medicine nut jobs are spread like wildfire throughout TWI. People in JW don't do 'community involvement', and like that TWI members are always at a meeting or with the 'household' as opposed to community things. YMMV, but to me there are similar feels, and both are very, very controlling groups.

James, Nice thoughtful writeup, and it's good to hear an outside perspective. His theology certainly was a mishmash of different concepts of his time. I think you also have to include Conspiracy Theorists in the mix there, as many of the more "advanced" teachings he would do during the 70's after the hippie movement influx would usually include some element of a consipiracy theory of one kind or another, whether it be the Illuminati, being in Vietnam to protect Roman Catholic real estate interests, the conspiracy to protect the nation of Israel where a lot of your anti-semitism came from and was involved, and many other similar things.

No, I don't think so. I remember one big job in the bookstore being "double-checking" every copy of every book that came back from the printer. Literally one poor slave would do this full-time, going through every page of every book looking for little printing or binding errors. Because "they just don't have the same standards in the world". They usually couldn't get reimbursed for any of those as the printer would have some kind of acceptable defect level they would have to keep under. They would sell the minor defect copies at the ROA for discounts. There is such a lack of common sense there. I mean, how many man-hours and dollars of ABS can you save by just having a RMA process like every other goods company? The brain. You can wash it, but you can't dress it up and take it out in public.

Now there's a branch that is one step away from selling flowers at airports. And I bet that branch coordinator would jump at a chance to put an idea like that on his vision and direction report.

Haha - We could expand upon this. Q. In comparison to this transcript, let's have a look at the one provided by TWI for the "college degree" they confer upon their Way Corps granduates. What do you see? A. Air. There is no transcript available at all. Q. Well in all fairness, let's compare this transcript with the one obtained by TWI's founding president, VPW. A. That one's never been found either. Maybe Mrs. VPW stashed the schedule of "paper deadlines" that the corrsepondance college maintained.

David also had a sidekick from what I remember, guy named Gene Slavit. Did you encounter him? I thought he might be "helping" David by bringing him doughnuts while he was working the "proven research". And LOL at "proven research" - that's just American Christian Press. Polly I believe also is in charge of their website, or of whoever does it. And again, LOL at "President's Publications". WTF has Frau Q-Tip ever published in the 10 years she's been President? Nada? New book covers for the FNC Studies in Abundant Living books? Oh, I know - the "Vision and Direction" document? Don't even get me started ...

James, To give a little more clarification on your question, the Way International Research Team was a department at TWI that was headed up by a gentleman named Walter Cummins, who I believe still lives in the New Bremen area. It was formed to help VP on some of his more research focused books. The culmination or most notable works of this department probably were VP's two books - "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed", which was a focus on OT prophecies of the Messiah as well as pinpointing his birth from astronomy. Also, "Jesus Christ Our Passover", which is an effort at a harmony of the gospels surrounding the Messiah's last 2 weeks on earth. Bernita Jess was a woman who along with her husband lived in the local cental Ohio area and were long-time members of TWI since VP was a minister for an Evangelical and Reformed church before the start of TWI. Bernita's husband George Jess was the first coordinator of the Way Corps, which is TWI's leadership traning program. Bernita herself I believe became interested in the Eastern culture and customs and the Aramaiac language during the time that Dr. George Lamsa interacted with VPW and taught him Eastern culture and Orientalisms. As she states in her letter, she was in charge of that project. She was actually a sweet lady, and I think she has since passed away. She actually understated a lot - she was the de facto person in charge of Aramaiac research for most of the time in our ministry that I can recall - although she doesn't say that - she was not egotistical or extremely outspoken. She wrote a column for the Way magazine monthly for decades on Eastern customs and orientalisms. Bernita's comment in your letter is accurate. The only research done are small hand selected teams picked directly by the President and on a particular project for a certain time. Of that team of people that worked on that Aramaiac project, I believe a poster here was involved. Penworks, or Charlene Edge. You can find out more about her in her articles here - http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editorial/editorial-items/affinity.html, here - http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/editorial/editorial-items/nostalgia.html and in her profile here - http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/user/3152-penworks/ After VPW's death, the next president of TWI, L. Craig Martindale, was certainly not inclined to develop or expand the research department. In fact, exactly the opposite - he ran off most of them. There were two people that helped him - Wayne Clapp and Jon Nessle, both of which were kicked out either by Martindale, or the current president Rosalie Rivenbark. Those two gentlemen had more Greek background than Aramaiac, and since that time have traveled down the road and set up shop at Tipp City OH with an offshoot ministry called Christian Family Fellowship, or www.cffm.org. Both the 2nd and 3rd president of TWI are referred to by certain nicknames on this site, like "the Forehead" or "LCM" for Martindale, and "Q-Tip" or variations of "Rosie" or takeoffs for Rivenbark. Under the 3rd president Rivenbark, there continued on to be no research department. Possibly 5 years ago one gentleman came in to work at TWI HQ who had been a field leader for many years - David Chavoustie. His current job last I knew was the "Research" department. However, he is the only employee and works there only part time. The Aramaiac works were done during a very short period of time close to VPW the founding President's death. That was the peak of TWI both in numbers overall, finances, properties, and also the largest size of the Research department. That time or those resources were there for maybe 2-4 years, and will likely never be duplicated again. Hope that gives you some more background.

Fixed inaccuracies on that thread. Thx for clarification.

So the lawsuit with James Trimm has got me thinking along these lines. First of all, how intriguing that Frau Helga von Q-Tip spent your ABS to fly someone out to Texas to work on this copyright lawsuit along with a lawyer. And I'm sure the honorable Louis Columbo, Esq. was billing those hours. Your ABS at work! Oh, and not to mention the severe irony of TWI pursuing legal action in the copyright area. But back to the topic at hand. There are many different documented examples of VP the MOGFODAT taking certain "liberties" with other people's materials. One source of this is a pretty well done comprehensive website by John Juedes at http://www.abouttheway.org which contains sections on this. Now perhaps some people still under the delusion that it was all some kind of divine intervention for him to "amalgamate" or "put together" teachings like they haven't been known since the first century may discount all of this, make excuses, and sluff it off as "inconsequential". And maybe others might think that it's due to not enough educational training consisting of getting a "doctorate" degree from a correspondance school located in one floor of a house in Manitou Springs, Colorado. I mean, maybe they didn't teach him how to do Bibliographies there. Right? After all, having a framed portrait of each of these men up in the Founder's Room of the WOW Auditorium is certainly enough to recompense stealing all these people's material, right? But no, the hoax goes even deeper. You see, in dealing with all of the traditional publishing companies it's just so much effort. They ask you all these questions. They have people review your material to ensure accuracy and relevance. And they are an impartial 3rd party company that will do really annoying things like checking your references, following up on allegations of copyright infringement, etc.! No, that will just not do for an up-and-coming-preacher who really needs the flexibility of playing it fast and loose in the publishing arena and needs to get propaganda put out in the printed fashion to "move the Word over the World" tm. So what's the solution? Genius. Make your own publishing company. Call it American Christian Press. After all, questioning an organization like that would be simply unpatriotic, wouldn't it? It solves all these problems. First, we can avoid all of those pesky questions. After all, many of the people we've liberally used work from are all either dead or old enough they won't take legal action. Next, we can avoid paying people and just have staff people do the work - can pay them slave wages. And finally, it really establishes your "legacy" for some other opportunist (cough, cough, Q-Tip) to come along and capitalize on the written material to build their own empire built upon the "genuine foundations", or what does she call it? "Proven ministry research"??? All in all, quite a clever play, there. Discuss.

You mean the "Swinging Ladies of the Drapes and Karaoke"???

There are a number of other elements here. One problematic area concerning things on the Internet is jurisdiction. Where do you file a case like this? Did the offense happen in a certain state under which state civil law applies? Venue can be argued. The other problem is that people who are in positions like public figures have no expectation of privacy like a normal citizen does. And filing and winning a lawsuit are 2 different things. Truth as a defense is always powerful. You don't have to have a statement "proven to be true" you just have to have a statement with enough facts behind it that the average person would reasonably believe it to be true. To actually win a case of this nature, there is a discovery process just like all the lawsuits TWI went through. In that discovery process, people involved are asked whatever questions an opposing attorney wants to ask. If someone lies, they are subject to perjury charges. That due process of law is what flushed out all of the Forehead's antics - he was afraid to perjure himself and expose himself to jail time. Those TWI leaders don't want to have people digging into their lives, especially their past, and getting depositions on record where they could be later proven to contain lies. I mean the PR damage that could happen there. The Forehead from what it was rumored internally was a serial adulterer - meaning many, many partners. They had to make a "list" of people whose names came up and sit with them and counsel them. Oh, and what they counseled them was that it was partially their fault too, because to do it they must have had some inappropriate lust for gain out of it. Another coverup scheme to get all of the victims not to sue. Yes, TWI's BOD is very aware of the 1 year statute of limitations on slander and libel suits and certainly works with that in mind. If they can just bully someone or push someone or trick someone into not taking action for a year they are in the clear. But they won't escape God's courts.

Well you know, soul searcher, that as we learned in TWI the adversary can only be one place at one time. He is not everywhere present like God is. (Can you hear the boom of Bob W's "Athletes of the Spirit" narration in the background)? So now if he is only one place, where would he choose to be in June? Certainly not out starting wars in the Middle East killing tens of thousands, not causing poverty in Africa or spreading AIDS, certainly not mucking with the hundreds of millions of RC's and their priests with stifled libidos, or inspiring insane college kids to shoot up places. He wouldn't be involved in the Mafia run drug trafficking across the world with all of the cash and murders. No, No, No. I'm sure that the #1 place he has to be in June is doing rain dances in the corn fields of Central Ohio. Because although the scriptures do say that the rain falls on the just and the unjust, I'm sure his #1 priority is to keep people from finding out that what a lying spirit does is to inspire compulsive lying. Or a jealousy spirit is involved around jealousy as an emotion. No, that's far too detailed and intricate secret information to allow out there. Actually, if you want to see a lying spirit in operation you don't even need to attend the teachings there at the AC. Just watch the Board of Directors. You'll learn far more about that one than you could reading one page in your syllabus.

OMGZOMF!!!!!!!!!! - the kids are getting together and they are ....... wait for it............................. wait for it............................. wait for it............................. Studying the Bible ?????!!!!?????? We've got to put an end to that mischief. I mean TWI just really brings out the inner 'tard for some of these people. They probably forgot that about 80% of their followers came about because they did exactly that in the '70's.

Tom, I see what you're saying. VP came in and took advantage of a genuine movement of God. I can't say I have personally experienced that - everything I have experienced has been a little more under the shadow of the legalism. For me the genuine movement of God happened on a small scale in spite of all that, but never the large-scale impact you're speaking of. I have always thought that the numbers in TWI at its peak are due to the seeds planted in that genuine movement years before. And TWI is still leeching off the financial results of that.

We are kind of picking nits here on timelines. The only thing I meant by what you quoted was that it's been pretty well documented on this site that VP's antics pre-date our involvement. That pretty much rules out a time before that and above that from an absolute sense. For example, I have J.E.Stiles book on the HS field - you know - the guy that led VP into tongues? It is about 70% identical to RHST. But VP presented it as his own, quoted multiple times how he had memorized all usages of pneuma, spent a lot of time in a motel writing it, etc. Was that after the time of your involvement? If not, then the charlatan was already in full swing. Now if what your saying is that in our awareness, in our heart, in our purity of our involvement there was a time before and above that I wholeheartedly agree. I knew nothing of the hijinks going on behind the curtain. In fact the large majority of the entire time I spent in TWI was like that - I had no knowledge of the sexual escapades AT ALL until Frau Helga von Q Tip Rivenbrk confronted all the Corps about it. The beauty of God and the bliss of naieve ignorance combined.

We still get Hoho cards - like I want to see their fugly mugs. Somehow mine got thrown out before I could realize the true Photoshop value encased therein. But that there is a good idea!!!!! Maybe we can have a Photoshop contest around the holidays - a down to earth real life BOD - o - shop opportunity If they're going to put them out for public consumption we might as well get some use out of them besides the standard use of birdcage lining. The posters - I see better art walking down Elementary school halls. And LMAO about them being "confidential". Here's something that's not confidential - it's public knowledge, Frau Q-Tip - they SUCK!!!!!! You see what they can't put together is that their planning process is really ineffective. That's because Frau and Frau-bootie-kissers don't realize that they are doing nothing more than worshipping their own thoughts!!!! Yes - your planning is just your thoughts!!!! And they are not to be worshipped, God is!!!! So Q-tip lady, your whole kit and kaboodle, your whole process and procedure is no more than your own personal idolatry that you have wrapped, packaged, and sold to those stupid enough to believe it. There is nothing inherently godly about your planning. It is nothing more than writing down your thoughts at a certain time, then revisiting them. Here's an example planning session. "Let's do this". "OK - repeated 25 times". Then one month later - "Let's re-examine the idea". "OK - 25x". "Wow that was a great idea". "Yes it was - 25x". "Let's go with it". This snowballs to the point the longer a bunch of stooges have been yessing an idea to death it's solidified into something almost graven in stone like the 10 commandments. Yes, they worship their plans. Which means they worship their own thinking from a previous time. Which means they worship the creation, not the Creator. They give a whole new meaning to the phrase "legends in their own mind".

Oh gag me with a frickin' drumstick. If I had access to any of them now I'd tell them to tell Frau Q-Tip where to shove her Q-Tip and go on a pilgramage to LifeLight - http://lifelight.org/ That's the real Christian Woodstock of today and what ROA never managed to be.

I totally agree. I think there have always been true believers in the midst of the charlatans' whoredoms.

Some of the latter "artistic" endeavors of The Way include their annual poster. This work of "art" really reflects accurately the "dumbing down" of the teachings over the year. Instead of drawing people, you can draw "Planet of the Apes" look-alikes. Then, when that gets too hard, you can just draw a field, or rows of corn, or a barn or something that's a lot easier to do in retirement paint-by-numbers projects. I would say it approaches cartoons, but I don't want to degrade the fine artists in the comic book industry by comparison. One more example of "things that suck at TWI".

I agree with you in what you are saying here. In a lot of ways the 'life is spiritual' mantra is just an escape route from reality and facing things for TWI members. In that it is like drugs. People have a problem in interpersonal relationships, instead of fixing it they get high. In TWI, when people have a problem with interpersonal relationships, instead of fixing it they just drop back to the mantra 'life is spiritual', label the person they are having problems with as having 'spiritual problems', and cut off communication with them. Voila - problem solved! But in reality, they just push it downstream, as they haven't themselves changed to be able to cope. That's what's wrong with the whole 'mark and avoid' thing, or the modern equivalent - 'probation'. The directors haven't solved their corporate problems, or developed themselves in handling interpersonal relationships. They just issue and edict and voila! This is also why they will continue to get worse and worse over time! Instead of TWI fixing HR policies and problems that are ridiculous, outdated, and something that if anyone in the organization would pursue education in that area they could easily fix, TWI instead looks at the issue as a 'spiritual' problem. The only 'spiritual' problem is in the thickness of some people in high position's skulls. Instead of TWI fixing issues with teachings that are dull, boring and lifeless, they rely on tired policy as if the decision some leader made at a previous time somehow is more tried and true because it has been around. In reality the opposite is true - living corporations thrive on change. Corporations that fail to change go bankrupt, get bought out, disband, fail. "Life is spritual" is a frickin' excuse. It's an excuse for not working to obtain results. It's an excuse for being hard-headed and hard-hearted. It's an excuse for not being humble enough to change when overwhelming evidence dictates it. It's an excuse to allow people a reason to remain a loser. That's right, TWI people - you're a loser. Because you make excuses like 'life is spiritual'. Life is not spiritual. It's hard. For everyone. The only thing spiritual about your life is your personal relationship with your Heavenly Father. That's between you and Him. And if people will stop using that relationship as a justification and take responsibility for the other areas of their life, they'd be far less easily duped by charlatans.