chockfull

Been there, done that, have the Top Ramen packages. Well, actually no I don't. I threw those out.

Dude's wife was leaving him for another woman. It's little wonder he was so wacked out. I mean you actually might have felt sorry for him if he wasn't such a colossal d'bag.

Dude, in your drive-by you misquoted Galatians. After listing the fruit of the spirit, nowhere in that section of scriptures does the quote "let us speak of these things" appear. It does say "against such is no law". The 4 verses directly preceding the fruit of the spirit is listed the works of the flesh, being adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. The 17 works of the flesh. What's hilarious to me is that you have so many of these brainwashed people that don't like it when we are exposing the works of the flesh evident within the inner circles of TWI, but instead would have us sweep that under the carpet in favor of only speaking of the fruit of the spirit. I'll speak of the fruit of the spirit where it is evident, which is far, far away from the inner circles of leadership in TWI. Here - let's just take one example. Envyings. So many of TWI leadership is so full of political posturing and jockeying for positions of power, maintaining their little positions of power, and just acting like little Napoleans. Envyings are at the root of this. The works of the flesh, evident right before your eyes. What's hilarious is people are so blind they will quote one section of scripture, want you to focus on this only, and ignore the preceding 4 verses in the same section!!! The brain, you can wash it but you can't dress it up and take it out.

This is a prime example of how when you put stupid people (BOD) together with firearms (their policies), they end up shooting themselves in the foot.

Geisha, I think this above here was exactly my point. Some of us do this, yet are not associated with denominations, large local community churches, cults, or other organizations in buildings. I felt like you were starting to judge many of us in that category, saying we were looking at our own reflections in the water (implying we have no spiritual guidance), saying we are not 'looking for a place', equating not attending an official church with forsaking assembling together with saints, hinting that without accountability we 'know what happens', etc. I am not denigrating people who choose to associate with groups or organizations, however, between myself and God that is not the direction I believe He is leading me in currently. As a result, I actually seem to have exposure to many different people across many different churches. The body of Christ is much bigger than we all picture, and God is well able to keep track of all the different specialties and functions. I am not attacking you personally. All in all I believe you are a wonderful person, very devoted, very giving, and in many ways a good Christian example. As far as pastors and people having them because they need pastoring, I actually believe I fulfilled that role genuinely to the best of my ability within a corrupt organization for many, many years. Now it is time for a different direction. When I personally need pastoring, the Lord provides it through so many different means it is almost ridiculous. And I'm sure in the circles I travel in I contribute to that for others in a small way as well. As the Bible states, gifts and calling are without repentance. I am glad we are having this conversation in spite of rough patches. This is very much learning to appreciate the different functions of the body. It transcends narrow-mindedness. The eye cannot say to the hand I have no need of you.

Yes. What exactly was it that allowed us to place ourselves under that kind of false spiritual authority? Because in reality when it comes to spiritual matters, people have no more authority over you than you allow.

Dude, they taught us on a Corps playback how to read labels on cans. And I can't get that 2 hours of my life back.

Is knowing where all the bodies are buried job security? Or a source of inner turmoil that you've repressed, ending up in insomnia? They always surface somewhere.

Sure. And Joel Olsteen's church has grown similarly. It sounds like your motivations 'to be a part of it' are more that you want to be caught up in something big as opposed to the personal touch of Christian relationships with those you actually know and interact with. I have no complaints about church. I do have complaints about people acting in a condescending fashion towards others. You know, kind of like making comments about 'anyone can look at their reflection in the water'. Why don't you look at your own reflection in the water and take the beam out of your eye that you see in it? Where exactly did you get the idea that 'we' are not doing this? It's not necessary to dress up and go to a building to accomplish this. Jesus didn't do that. People in China risk death and imprisonment for having more than one child. Or at least they used to. Now China is growing to be mostly capitalist and those controls aren't there any longer. Watchman Nee, one of the greatest Christian examples in all of China, who literally was imprisoned from 1952 until he died in 1972 for his faith, traveled all over the Chinese countryside personally interacting with other Christians, fellowshipping, discussing the Bible, teaching some. Not 'holding church'. I just love how people say 'I mean no disrespect', then the next thing that comes out of their mouth is disrespect. Do hypocrisy much? There is a physical, emotional, and mental limit to how many people you can interact with in a given day, week, month. Yes, love, praise with, worship with, serve with, all of the above. Because Jesus himself spent his life and ministry wandering around 'looking for a place'. It doesn't sound like you read the Bible much with understanding. It sounds more like you are enamored with the hype surrounding religion. I would suggest less ego and more reading. You are not better than your Christian brothers and sisters because you like to go to church. I'd be willing to bet that Tom does more genuine interaction, receiving, giving with 30 students on a daily basis than you do on any day of the week. Including your dress up and act holy day. You certainly seem to have a very different idea about how God works than I do. He is not a respecter of persons, groups of people, or buildings. He doesn't like it when people denigrate their brothers and sisters through ego. Maybe you really ought to look at the exact teaching of what is meant by the assembling together of the saints. How about when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be there? Why does it say 2 or 3, not 200 or 300? If you want to have your little narrowminded interpretation of that scripture to mean that the Bible teaches you're supposed to go to church, then that's your problem. But when you bring that attitude into my church then it also becomes my problem. Which is why I'm telling you straight that attitude is very poor and not an example of Christian teachings and discipline.

Yes, Drambuia, Adulteraria, Little Napolean's Italy, and Sturgis.

Zixar, you definitely ARE a unique and beautiful snowflake. (and props to the first who can name that movie reference).

Amen, bro. I'm with you 100% on that. Great sharing too.

See, Jewish AND you like the Clash. You DO at least have the POTENTIAL for having a personality.

Like a skirt? Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to be interesting?

Dude, from the looks of it you have a gospel account above copied word for word, and the only difference is you've translated God to Yahweh, Jesus to Yeshua, and Peter to Cephas. So you're copying down word for word a Hebrew version of one of the gospels? I'm really not following you here. You took an online course in "Introduction to the Old Testament" from Christine Hayes online? Here? http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/introduction-to-the-old-testament-hebrew-bible/content/downloads And you visited TWI HQ trying to convince them of something but the Sheriff kicked you out? Dude, what are you seeking? What are you trying to accomplish?

Where not even the devil can say "cigarette break's over - back on your heads"...

Well it didn't make me smile. It did make me pull out a ruler. It was then I realized that post was 15 inches wide by 34 inches long, all of text. All I can say to it is FRAT. Forget Reading All That

Now that you've learned how to hyperlink external content it would be a shame to waste all that new talent arguing with the Mormons and other Jewish groups only.

Sunesis, honestly I don't know. Lately I seem to look at that as God's responsibility, and I just try to move with Him. But come to think of it, many of the youth and youth groups in churches are doing well, great places for young people.

Churches can be a place for accountability. They can also be a place for politics, a profession for those so inclined, and a source for divisions. Accountability is not by nature greater in a church environment - there are as many accounts of "what can happen" within as there are without. Anyone looking at their own reflection in the water seeking the Christ within will not be disappointed. A paid pastor doing his job presenting a message doesn't necessarily improve the reflection. I personally have been to many churches. They do a lot of good, but sometimes the lack of depth reminds me of why I left a denomination in the first place and sought TWI.

Funny thing to consider. To me, it is like lying but there are some differences. It is total deception. The difference is that with lying people still have a conscience. With many of these clowns they may have had a conscience the first few times they did it, lied and justified it as advancing "the ministry", but over time their conscience has been seared with a hot iron, as described Biblically. They lie about things and never even consider that they are lying. It's their modus operandi and their self-importance in their own mind prevents them from acknowledging the falsehood. They have a vision that somehow what they are doing is "preserving the Word ™ for the next generation". It's a false vision. Like the false vision VP had when he was sexually molesting all those women. He thought he was "healing" them. Instead he was deeply and emotionally injuring them. Their morals are low, their lust for power is high, so that is ripe ground for false visions to be planted. A false vision is a lie. It's just on a much more grandiose scale.

When we were all selling the spiritual version of Amway, bro.

Tom, For me more and more personally, my church in my understanding is one without walls. It consists of people who touch my life and I touch theirs. There are amazing Christians within a 2 mile radius of where I live, "diamonds in the rough", once I dropped the egotistical blinders and judgemental attitudes. They are all in my 'church'. My earthly family are amazing people and beautiful believers, and in my 'church'. In a sense, with the barriers that are broken down with the Internet, there are many more that can touch me and vice versa, such as great people like yourself here on GS. Of course the 'touch' is more limited but my God's big enough to sort that out. Many of you guys in GS are my 'church'. I met an amazing friend from Iran, raised a Moslem, never considered Christianity. He hates the narrow-minded interpretation of the Koran the leaders there maintain, and the power-mongering in back of it. He tells of US sanctions making it unable for them to do airline repairs in his country and thousands dying in plane crashes every year as a result - the common people, as the government is rich. He received a telemarketing call from someone helping orphans. He didn't blow them off, he investigated. He one-upped them, becoming personally involved in becoming a benefactor to orphan children in Iran and placing them through his own expense with childless Iranian couples in the US. Why this story? Because he too is in my 'church'. I think the true intent of the body and bride of Christ is nothing like the narrow-minded, David Duke like KKK interpretation of it that those fooled enough to drink the TWI kool-aid espouse. I don't need a building, babysitting, a paid staff who make a living off 'The Word' tm to experience the real church. I don't need ABS 75% to HQ / 25% local to experience the real 'church'. I don't need another intercessor when I have a Savior. I don't need to 'find a church that I'm happy with', when God has provided one all around me. I don't need a 'filter' for God for me, I need Him 'unfiltered'. I am not 'alone' where I used to have 'a family'. I used to have people all around me, showing up at my house regularly, engaging in limited, narrow-minded conversation, talking to me with flattering words. I was just a part of their ritual. I was a means to their end about feeling better about themselves, their bribe to God so that things could go right in their lives. In so many ways they were just way too dense to touch their lives. They would say they were my friends but they weren't. So they've dropped off and others have stepped up. Not my choice always, but that's just fine. I don't need to spend a lot of time worrying about evangelizing, teaching 'the Whole Word' tm, just live, move, interact from the heart with those in front of me. I don't know, man. That's where I'm at with all this lately. I agree with you - if you sit around and wait for a harvest, you'll grow old with unfulfilled hopes. Dream with God and move ahead a step or two. And take man's blinders off that he's put on the eyes. The love of God doesn't need an 'Advanced Class syllabus'. Membership in an organization, while fine for many, is just another form of vanity to me. Again, I may be crazy, man. I'm just trying to put things together the best I can and make sense of my world and living life with God in it. Peace, bro.

Actually, that's called 'diversity'. It's not a bad thing. We value it around here. It actually helps from viewpoints becoming consolidated, industrialized, constricted, and then mandated as many of us personally have seen that occurs with human vice, power, and the tendency toward legalism that mankind seems doomed to repeat itself with when you introduce 'religion'. (What does the Torah say about that? We want a king, we want a golden image of a cow, we want manna, we still want to complain?) Now while there may be one specific poster here coming after you that might raise some defences, if you routinely view the free exchange of ideas as a "battle front", then I would encourage you to sell those ideas for a penny, throw the penny in a wishing well, and come up with some new ones that understand 'community', 'church', and value interpersonal relationships.

Tom, Personally, if I were healed by faith and miracles, I'd certainly be ready for the medicine, reason, and bed rest. After all, all that faith and miracles stuff is mentally exhausting! But in all seriousness, God can energize, but I think it's our responsibility to make good decisions with the life and physical body He's given us, and those last three are just good common sense decisions.