chockfull

On another thread we are discussing the role of churches in recovery from toxic organizations. I thought I'd start a thread to discuss input on what specifically the definition of 'church' is to people. Of course, as we've mostly all studied in the texts of the Bible, when the Bible uses the term 'church' - at least the Greek word that is used is - ekklesia. The literal meaning of that term is "called out". In TWI they use that, and add to it the definition of "called out for a specific purpose". Also in TWI teachings it is highlighted that this word in addition to being used to describe gatherings of Christians is used to define the mob that assembled to stone Paul. Besides being TWI teachings the content IS accurate - the word does mean 'called out', and it is used of the mob. I'm not sure of these terms in the Aramaiac, but I wonder if our illustrious Jewish friend James Trimm might lend a hand with linguistics here to help us out? James? What word does 'church' come from in Aramiac? What does it mean literally? So the upshot - what is a 'church' to you? To kickstart the discussion I'll present a list of different groups of people assembled. Also if you don't mind, indicate which scenario you feel is authentic Christianity or which is not, or can't tell without more information. 1) Traditional Church - meets in a church building or rents space at local buildings. Many flavors: a) pastor is head - under a denominational authority over them - regional, national, international b) pastor is head - no authority over them b) church board of elders is head - they hire/fire pastors c) central head - local pastor just an employee 2) Small Group or Home Bible Study church a) coordinated by local church/under their authority b) non / interdenominational - not under authority, but regional or national principles govern (ex: Promise Keepers) c) non / interdenominational - not under authority, locally organized and run d) home group ministry - nationally / internationally organized (like Campus Crusaders or Navigators on collee campuses, TWI, offshoots) 3) Non-Profit Service Organization - provides a Christian service to community, like Salvation Army 4) Prayer Groups 5) Small Circle of Christian Friends This isn't intended to be a complete list, but enough categories to kick start a discussion. Please feel free to comment and/or add new types of groups that you think of, and whether or not they are 'a church'. 6) Business Organizations - that provide Christian services, meetings and/or testimony

In fact behaving in this fashion, which is what many do continually to remain in TWI, in essence just pushes the emotional trauma downstream. You can build a fantasy world for yourself where everything is beautiful, but if it is not reality then that which is repressed will come back stronger and with more force. This is how people have nervous breakdowns. I have actually discussed this topic at length with psychologist friends. Leaving TWI is very much like PTSD. The emotional trauma is very real, even if it doesn't involve the atrocities of war that veterans experience. I would almost say that the vast majority of people leaving TWI experience at least a minor form of PTSD. Recovery mentally and emotionally are elements that need specific attention. Otherwise the recovery period stretches out even longer. I honestly probably had some of that trigger recently in some of my arguments on this forum. Sometimes things get triggered and you have emotions and you don't know why they are still there. For me I've learned some of the things that trigger me is when I feel that fellow Christians judge me and try by their words to bring me under a false spritual authority that bypasses my direct prayer life to God and tries to dicatate to me what I should do. I should just walk away and let people have their opinion. But that's what triggers do - bring up behavior that is not always rational. And yes it happens even years later.

Thx WordWolf. My views are that mainstream Christianity in general and churches in particular are a useful resource in cult recovery in two main ways: 1) To see the error in TWI's 'household' mentality - there are many more great Christians out there that are ignored through an elitist 'household' teaching 2) To build new positive experiences interacting with other Christians helps people to put in perspective relationships in TWI that are no longer existent due to shunning. They are helpful in addition to other resources, such as books like 'The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse', which describes a couple of individuals efforts at establishing a community church and what they learned about how people use scriptures to control and abuse others. I do not hold the view that they are a mandatory step - I see too much evidence to the contrary on this forum. Many people around here are building great positive things in their lives that have nothing to do with churches. Rebuilding family relationships, taking up hobbies, enjoying social circles, having a productive career, education - all of these things are also vital and helpful steps in recovery. In my view also - one thing to be cautious of with churches. Jumping from one 'cult member' mentality where you are being abused to another in a mainstream church is definitely not a good direction to go. There is spiritual abuse in many, many places under many guises. The authors of the book describe it in their local community church. To jump from one situation to another without changing yourself in my view is like being a victim in a domestic violence situation and running right to another abusive partner. People need to break the endless cycle of that behavior in addition to just leaving the organization.

I would too, potato. And sorry for my part in the thread derail.

So you aren't letting it go yourself. That and cap locks makes you what? Seething yourself? Are you projecting here? You brought up the word. For myself, part of my cult recovery involves instead of just letting someone accuse you falsely and dump all kinds of garbage on your brain to actually respond to it and confront people on their actions rather than just 'taking it'. As opposed to in TWI, where I just blindly accepted that people had spiritual authority. Now because you are being stubborn about this, it seems that we are in an argument over it. You keep telling me to let it go, and using various tactics to avoid responding. Now obviously at some point this argument is going to have to de-escalate. Just so we are clear. Your hypocrisy does not 'convict' me in the least. All it is is 'your hypocrisy'. You do not speak for God when it concerns or is related to my life. And also, I like how you avoid all the points of logic in the responses. Here are a number of them that you have not addressed. So why don't you address them before you start breaking your elbow patting yourself on the back as to how great a job for the Lord you are doing in 'convicting' people: 1) Churchy - how is that adjective inaccurate in describing you? 2) On the other thread, you flattered Gen-2 by saying she 'loves and serves the Lord'. How do you reconcile that with all your garbage on this thread about your beliefs about needing to attend a church? Are you talking out both sides of your mouth there? Why or why not? 3) Churches - many of these handle snakes and have gay priests that molest children. How do you reconcile that with your views on churches? It really sounds like you will go to any lengths to avoid facing the truth about yourself. Well, that actually is a human defense mechanism. Rather than admitting you are being judgemental, you instead just re-frame the problem to be someone else's. Wow - you could do well in TWI with that kind of approach. That's exactly what they do to avoid any kind of public apologies.

What are churches role in helping people recover from abusive organizations like TWI? Are they a mandatory step? Are they the only way to live a Christian life? Discuss.

What Geisha believes is from her own words, pretty much all over the Jim Doop thread. I'll keep it contained to there for now out of courtesy to you guys. Actually the new thread is not a bad idea for general discussion.

No digs at you. I realize you don't attend any sort of church, but geisha believes you need to in order to be a genuine Christian, and I was just trying to keep her honest when she uses flattering words like she said to you. She apparantly feels that is 'taking a swipe' at her, but I just feel that people should honestly communicate what they believe without flattering words.

It's nice you can do that while ignoring the other sections of Corinthians talking about the one body. I find it difficult to believe what you are saying here when in every single post you contradict it even within the same post. Like for instance you say you respect my right to believe what I want. Then below when you say 'It just seems a shame you don't partake fully in what they provided for us'. Do you get that is hypocrisy? Or not? Churchy - an adjective that describes someone's primary goal and viewpoint of trying to convince others to go to church. Tell me where that's not an accurate description. Whether or not you like it. You first. Now the only conversation on this thread is between you and me. There's no other participation. Oh, and your cap lock apparantly is stuck there. Or you're yelling at me. Actually, no that wasn't despising you. But nice try. Over there, you say: "It sounds, from your posts, like you do love and need the Lord. It sounds like you do serve Him with what He has blessed you with." But that's not what you really mean. What you really mean is: "I know that you are an ex-cult member that believes in a different Christ and a different gospel than I do. But if you'll just attend a church regularly and get some 'real pastoring' and 'accountability' into your life, then you can have the potential to really love the Lord and serve Him." See? Doesn't that translate more directly into what you believe exactly? If not, please fill me in as to what I'm missing, because when you get down deeper past flattering words in a conversation, that's really what you believe. Nice dig there at the end. It just seems a shame that you're a little too thick to understand it when people do partake fully yet it's outside of what you do.

Yeah, Katie. It sounds like you are a person that absolutely must be a member of a church somewhere. After all, that's the only way the Lord functions.

OldSkook, I agree with you man. TWI's definition is kind of like Christian Scientist. When in reality it's like Tom Cruise's definition: Nicole, you don't submit yourself enough to Christian Science, therefore my rich @$$ is going to divorce you and marry Katie who I will dance on Oprah to show how much I 'agape' the idea of marrying you because you completely comply with my 'wacko' religion. -Chockfull

IMO, things of this nature, you don't 'get over it'. You 'get through it'. And start to build positive things in your life.

Whatever. You think the word 'churcy' is attacking you personally. I feel it is a very accurate adjective describing your activity on this thread. It has nothing to do with conforming to the way I believe, it has everything to do with confronting you on a condescending and non-Christian attitude backed up by scriptures. You've never addressed that, you've just tried to make up reasons why you are right. Of course, everybody here sees why it absolutely could never be anything you did wrong. And oh, everybody realizes you're not judging just trying to be good old little you helping people get back to church. Take off the mask. Put off the hypocrisy. Your so-called opinion denigrates other Christian members of the body of Christ who are not members of a 'church' as you see fit to describe it. In your opnion, it could be any 'church' as long as it has 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring'. The problem with that is there are 'churches' that handle snakes and other 'churches' with proven records of homosexually molesting children. They aren't labeled 'cults' but oh, confront you with a scriptural backing and look how the accusations fly. Not the same faith, another gospel, boy next thing you know you'll be accusing all those who don't go to church like you to be seed of the serpent. Wow. And on a thread that has his name in the title. What are you trying to tell us? Since you never posted on topic in the whole thread, I guess the only reasonable alternative is you were trolling the thread. Right? No, actually nothing like it. This forum is lightly moderated and seldom is anyone banned. Actually what it's like is just a reality check. If you feel that most of the people who post on this forum, i.e. most ex-cultists have the following characteristics: 1) Do not follow the same gospel of Jesus Christ as you do 2) Do not have the same faith as you do 3) Will argue with your genuine 'pastored' perspective 4) Are not really Christians, even though they say they are it just leads to the logical conclusion that your only presence on this forum is for the purpose of trying to show people that unless they attend a church they are not a genuine Christian. And in that you may have a little more in common with your local church, which may emphasize 'accountability', and 'genuine pastoring' in a way that you feel you need to be 'under the authority' of a pastor. One thing your extreme viewpoint leads to asking is though, is in your local church, is your 'genuine pastor' the type that really stresses 'accountability' and teaches that unless you have that you're not a genuine Christian? You see to me that seems exactly like the controlling nature of TWI. With a different clothing. Sorry, but no thanks. My freedom is in Christ, and is not dependant on all the other elements you wish to introduce into the Christian walk.

Geisha, I'm not going back and forth with you any more - it's divisive, and completely off topic with discussing the genuine movement of God present in the early days of TWI with Jim Doop and Steve Heefner. Quite obviously from your words you don't believe that it was a genuine movement of God. You only believe genuine movements of God happen in 'churches'. So do yourself a favor - why keep wasting your time on people you don't believe to be geniune Christians? Go back to your little church where you are comfortable, and head up the baking committee or something else like that. I for one will not be brought under false authority again. Not through power-mongering cult leaders, and definitely not through narrow-minded 'churchy' people who feel they have the corner on the market to genuine Christianity. -Chockfull

At a certain point they replaced the test with home studies. And yes, for singles due to limited choice locally, many of those events are highly looked forward to from a romantic potential perspective. As well as billed as developing friends all over the world. When TWI is your employer as well as your spiritual authority, their control over individuals through fear is relatively comprehensive. It's highly likely that a number of those cliques exist for people to be able to speak freely with no fear of their words being reported up the chain. Casting off that yoke of bondage is a great thing. For those under their employment, it's hard. They've spent many years at times doing something on their resume that will not contribute towards gainful employment secularly. Some never rise above that.

I remember those. Those were the "Heart" magazines, right? The "Heartbeat" was something else - the monthly Limb newsletter which consisted of a boring regurgitation of a STS by a Limb coordinator and the same 3 families in a given state having a public forum to show consistently how amazing their children were.

Is that a case of the classic characterization? The 'cop' has been chasing too many 'doughnuts' ???

I have long said that the Way Corps had practically turned the motto of "It Is Written" into "It Is Position". They have long functionally replaced "chapter and verse" with "quote, person, and title". They used to criticize the Roman Catholic church as functioning with the priorities 1) Ex Cathedra, 2) Traditions of the Elders, and 3) the Bible in everything. However, you will never hear that criticism in modern times because that is EXACTLY how TWI functions.

What I remember of the AC tests many years ago was that they tested the ability to regurgitate the collaterals. Which is almost comical. The 'blue book', the 'orange book', the 'tan book', and the 'red book' were all just consolidations of VPW's sermons, put in writing. Once they got there, it was almost a 'canonization' process. They became larger than life. I was involved in administering those for many years too. And grading home studies. Looking back, it was an exercise in making something appear academic that really wasn't. It was turning a class series into a curriculum of sorts for those not in education. If there actually was some outside 'accreditation' or involvement in developing the curriculum to ensure some kind of standards were upheld that would have been one thing. But since there was too much ego at the top to submit themselves to any such process, all in all it was a colossal waste of time.

Geisha, what frustrates me about discussing this with you is you just don't seem to get it. Right after a post where I share specifics about my direct involvment with a church, the next immediate post under it is "maybe church really isn't the place for you". What specifically is it that is so difficult to comprehend about a desire and practice to interact with other Christians in the body of Christ both inside and outside of specific church organizations and environments? What is so difficult to comprehend about the desire to do so without someone else being judgemental and condescending about it? Maybe you do "get it" but you're simply angry that I called you out on an attitude, and so you won't concede anything in a discussion but really want to polarize it into sides. Whatever. All that is fine - as long as you get it straight with the Lord it's all good. So, to spell it out a little more, no, it isn't 'whatever faith that is', it is the SAME faith you practice, with the same Lord, same Savior, and same body of Christ. It isn't where you 'think you are discerning spirits of witchcraft', that particular communication between a person and God is spiritual knowledge that isn't 'thinking'. Now I don't talk about those things publicly as I feel that kind of stuff is my personal private prayer life. What I would say about a situation like Tom describes is that I don't personally prefer to be around churches like Benny Hinn's where idiot preachers smack people in the head and poor deluded souls respond by wriggling around on the ground like they are having an epileptic attack. There I would say directly to the people stop smacking people in the head, and have some more respect for yourself, get off the ground and carry yourself with some dignity like a son or daughter of God. Spiritual matters are not supposed to work like that. So Geisha, just stop it. Stop trying to polarize this discussion into those who belong to churches and those who don't. There is no need to 'defend' going to a church. It's absolutetly fine, and nobody ever said it wasn't on this thread. As is 'not attending a church'. And using the word 'churchy' to describe someone's behavior is really not an insult or name calling, any more than what you are doing with the offhand comments like 'whatever faith it is' is an insult or implied name calling. This is exactly what I'm talking about - non-Christians don't seem to have these kind of social defects interacting with one another. They can exchange ideas without all this ridiculous baggage. Their discussions don't predominantly involve the mind pictures of "attacks" and "defenses". This is just one very clear example where the Christians are just so far below par, and I'm in this argument too so before you get all "attacky" on me and need to be "defensive" just realize I'm including myself in this here. In a way, this complete hijack of the original topic of the thread has some relevance to the thread. Jim Doop and Steve Heefner had something pure, genuine, and it was a movement of God. VPW came in with organization, structure, and turned it into legalism like we see happening in the history of the 1st century church in Acts with Peter, Paul, and Jerusalem. Many times this is a universal problem in the growth of a Christian organization. Can you keep it genuine and grow it beyond a certain size? I believe so, but TWI didn't do that. Many traditional churches also have this problem. Close friends of ourselves and our family have a hard and fast rule that they do not remain members of a church once it exceeds 200 members - they move to a different one. It's their little rule to try and deal with this issue. The natural human tendency is comparison, and Corinthians talks about how "comparing yourselves among yourselves" is not wise. Comparison leads to either condemnation or an egotistical or elitist viewpoint. That's the essence of the one body teachings in the Corinthian letters. Your human body just functions, doesn't compare and complain. So should the body of Christ.

I like this thread. 2 thumbs up!!!! There's a healthy balance between all the visualization and mental images of success, confessions, and the work necessary to succeed. To me, God and believing are involved because it's my personal relationship with God in prayer that's wrapped up in it. I get it straight with the Father what I should be pursuing first and get convinced. Then my prayer life is a continual source of motivation and inspiration. And then it's just a healthy dose of good 'ole fashioned hard work. Actually the more amazing thing to me lately is just how hard you should work at it. The people that are seeing success over their peers in endeavors I see putting in a SIGNIFICANT amount of work over and above. The lie, the trap, the false premise that is portrayed by this "law of believing", as well as all the self-help mind-game philosophies and products is that it teaches people to focus their efforts in the wrong place, to translate the efforts into focus on the human mind as opposed to the actual endeavor. It's a pipe dream and fool's gold that people construct spending all their efforts on their 'perfect' visualization technique and mind game as opposed to spending the bulk of their effort 'getting after it' in what they are pursuing. Yes you can succeed, and yes it will take more effort to do so than you might have first thought. And absolutely prayer life can be misguided in this fashion. God doesn't need endless repetition to understand the desires of our heart. I mean look at our relationship with our kids. They don't need to come up and say "daddy, daddy, daddy, mommy, mommy, mommy" 8 million times to have a conversation with us where we understand their needs and wants. If they bring it up in coversation 8 or 9 times during a 2 week period we pretty much get the picture what they are intersted in and looking for. God probably knows this even before we specifically address it with him. So IMO prayer life and believing shouldn't involve all this camera analogy mind game self help psychosis, but just be a healthy interpersonal relationship with our Father. And put your efforts into where they belong - the task at hand - what you are 'believing for, or to accomplish'.

I agree. We were taught a condescending and elitist perspective in TWI towards churches and mainstream Christianity. I don't do this. As a case in point, I was traveling, and stayed at a hotel across the street from a Baptist church offshoot - meaning a local community church whose pastors came from a Baptist background. On a Wed. night I desired some Christian conversation so walked over. I was fed a meal, treated with genuine hospitality and conversation. I attended the little service thing they had afterward. Basically this was more for church members, but they allowed guests. They were doing a ceremony where people joined their congregation. It involved immersion baptism. They had a little tub thing up front and people wore special robes for this with a bathing suit under it. They had a chance to share their personal testimony. I didn't once have stupid thoughts about how water baptism was 'off the Word' or whether or not the people knew as much as I did. It was all genuine Christianity. Sure God was moving in that group of people. The ministers doing the ceremony were fulfilling their role in it, and came off as doing it without ego and with genuine motives. I thought that was a pretty cool church actually. Now many aren't like that. In fact, a large number of them I have attended pressure you to fill out visitor cards, make you wear a little pin where you are a target for egotistical people to accost you, and act like high pressure salesmen because you walked through their door. Many of them have that same condescending type attitude that I dislike absolutely such as if you are not a member of their church then somehow you are a little inferior to them. They would probably act like that towards Jesus himself if he walked through the door, and not recognize him. One problem in this overall thread is people being highly defensive about the very generalized term 'church'. In fact, it kind of saddens me to observe this, but there is a disturbingly large number of people I encounter who outwardly label themselves Christians, but in their actions this appears to be a license to be obnoxious. They are less courteous, they are worse to deal with in business, they are narrowminded and bigoted, and in addition to all these beautiful traits they feel enabled and entitled in their behavior because 'they are Christians'. Also, it seems that people's interpersonal skills they are completely OK with them being very low because they are Christians. As I stated before, the body of Christ is much larger than most of us realize, and we are not in charge of it. There is one head of it - the Lord Jesus Christ.

Steve Covey, in particular, to me comes off as he is more big on selling books on setting goals. Of course, to publish books there are tons of goal setting deadlines involved. It's kind of a topic that isn't too hard to write on, and he makes a lot of money from it. Never heard of NLP. But there are basic concepts most of these things work off of. Positive affirmation, positive confession, positive visualization are all good things. Most successful top athletes, businessmen, people do some form of these things. The problem there gets into the over-emphasis on these things alone as opposed to the hard work that is necessary for success in each specific area. People make really stupid claims in these areas. Visualizing lifting weights doesn't build muscle. Visualizing running doesn't build cardio. Same with anything else worthwhile in life. One interesting author, Malcolm Gladwell, in his book Outliers, talks about the "Law of 10,000". The concept being 10,000 hours being the minimum to master something. He gives examples like the Beatles and Bill Gates. Gates had access early on to 10,000 hours of computer time that was normally way too expensive for an individual. The Beatles played 10,000 hours of gigs in Liverpool. That book is not a bad one to check out as kind of a realism check on all the "mind picture" success books.

Actually, there is only one legitimate way that this will work. And since I've had my funny bone struck tonight, I will describe it. First, you take the camera and shove it up your ... Then, you take pictures. Then, when the pictures are developed and you investigate them, you realize that where you are now is a lot better than where you could be. Thus, you are released from your prisons.

Dude, that is so fricken funny You are TEH AW3SOME!!!